I saw the film EXPELLED today and it was interesting ...

Select poll option that suits you most closely:

I am with Ben Stein who is a genius.	12.7%	[ 40 ]
I am with Dawkins who is brilliant!	28.3%	[ 89 ]
Darwinism is a foggy working hypothesis.	6.4%	[ 20 ]
There is no academic freedom anymore.	14.6%	[ 46 ]
I evolved from a cluster of cells that emerged from a pokey-ball.	37.9%	[ 119 ]
Total Votes:			[ 314 ]

[A Confused Iguana]

BlueCollarJoe

Burn your own strawman. And I am well aware Evolution doesn't cover monkeys screwing goats and creating squirrels. It was meant to make a point about the claim itself, nothing more, nothing less.
And are you saying that, according to evolution, it is not possible for a monkey to screw a goat and both it and the goat having a mutation in their genetic code that would allow for this to happen?

One underlying assumption about evolutionary theory is that there it is small mutations in the genes that give rise to small differences in expressed characteristics; these small differences are selected for and spread through the gene pool and successive generations build upon them. Now, if we observed that the mating of a monkey and a goat could mate and produce a viable squirrel as an offspring then it would mortally undermine a great number of the assumptions. We believe that small changes build up over time and that populations diverge into different species — with speciation being roughly defined as the point where the two daughter populations cannot mate with one another and produce viable offspring. The entirely idea of how life developed and diverged assumes that species, in general, cannot breed with one another.

If we saw that two hugely distinct species could mate then we would have to completely reassess how we understand common descent to have worked. Rather than piece together pathways that link different species to a common ancestor there would be no point because a new species could just "pop out" from the interbreeding of two distinct past species. There is no order, it would be completely chaotic.

Essentially, it would be evidence for pseudo-Catastrophism and that would undermine evolution at its core.

…

Incidentally, that Ken Miller talk I posted, a large number of Gaians [to narrow the scope] should pay attention to what Laurence Krauss is saying around the 94th minute mark. He is spot on and it could form the basis of a thread in its own right.

[pockybot]

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

[Katherine1]

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

Tell me, if Evolution is responsible for Eugenics and the Holocaust, then why were Darwin's books banned in Nazi Germany? According to Evolution, a larger diversity is better for the population. Eugenics and Social Darwinism go in the opposite direction of that. Nazi Germany goes in the opposite of that.

So, how does Evolution fit into that again?

[Emperor Fluffzorz]

Katherine1

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

Tell me, if Evolution is responsible for Eugenics and the Holocaust, then why were Darwin's books banned in Nazi Germany? According to Evolution, a larger diversity is better for the population. Eugenics and Social Darwinism go in the opposite direction of that. Nazi Germany goes in the opposite of that.

So, how does Evolution fit into that again?

*sigh* It fits into it because it's the SAME THING, remember? Darwin was really a fascist dictator, and Dawkins is really Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. You have to be logical about this!

After all, I suppose one side has to be, and it certainly isn't the one Ben Stein's leading.

[Opium Warlord]

It's a shame that we have more evidence of evolution than we do of aliens coming down and beaming us all here.

I see more scientists today discovering links between animals and dinosaurs than I do scientists discovering traces of material in our bodies similar to the materials on Mars. Even if ID could include aliens, we have no proof to make it a theory.

Maybe if someone would like to take up it's study, and find mountains of evidence (like evolution), then maybe it could be taught in schools.

Otherwise, I think that the ID teachings are far from being suppressed by Darwinism; they're just obviously far-fetched.

[Opium Warlord]

Emperor Fluffzorz

Katherine1

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

Tell me, if Evolution is responsible for Eugenics and the Holocaust, then why were Darwin's books banned in Nazi Germany? According to Evolution, a larger diversity is better for the population. Eugenics and Social Darwinism go in the opposite direction of that. Nazi Germany goes in the opposite of that.

So, how does Evolution fit into that again?

*sigh* It fits into it because it's the SAME THING, remember? Darwin was really a fascist dictator, and Dawkins is really Emperor Palpatine from Star Wars. You have to be logical about this!

After all, I suppose one side has to be, and it certainly isn't the one Ben Stein's leading.

I have not seen this movie, but if it talks about things like that to oppose the idea of evolution, I am astounded that the population of America cannot pick out the incredible amounts of propaganda this movie tries to feed it. If they seriously try to link the theory of evolution and the holocaust together, they are really scraping the bottom of the barrel on how to combat evolution.

EDIT: I lol'd at the Emperor Palpatine joke btw.

[vipr230]

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

Except they're very different. In fact, "social darwinism" was Herbert Spencer's whole creation, buttttt, if you've got a through understanding of evolution in the modern day you'd realize that social darwinism makes no sense, it reduces genetic diversity. Genetic diversity of a species is vital to the health of a species, eugenics and social darwinism go against what would be beneficial for a species. Look at the Cheetah, how low genetic diversity has crippled them.

Social darwinism I'll agree is creepy, but it's got little to do with Darwinism, and even if it did, you're using a appeal to consequences, such a logical fallacy doesn't invalidate evolution. Try again.

pockybot

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

... Except evolution would be rather poor justification for all of that, and evolution and abortion really have nothing in common, eugenics however goes against what evolution would say you'd want for a healthy species.

pockybot

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

No, you're simply ignorant. And frankly, it's getting tiresome, why don't you do a bit of real research before you actually make up your mind? You're the kinda person who could watch Fahrenheit 9/11 or Loose Change or even the Moon Landing hoax videos and think they represent reality. Just because you see it doesn't mean what you're being told is real. (As a conspiracy nut I'd imagine you of all people should be especially skeptical of videos like that, but for enjoying Expelled, clearly I'm wrong).

[geodesic42]

mrsculedhel

Sorry to all my friends, but I found Expelled to be quite compelling. It is not what I had expected based on the previews. It was not a teen angst rebellion film as portrayed by Ben Stein. It was a documentary with superb art direction.

I was most bemused by Dawkins who told Ben Stein of that he too could possibly explore the idea of an intelligent designer of earth life, by extra-terrestrial super beings whom themselves had evolved by Darwinian evolution.

The most fascinating portion to me personally were the graphic animation of cell life. I was amazed by the intricacies of transcription and translation; production of proteins, movement into and out of the cell plus all the movement that occurs inside the cell; the various organelles. In Darwin's time, cells were thought to be much more simple than science has described them today. If a cell was considered like a Buick in Darwin's time, today it is thought of as more like a galaxy. eek

Darwinian evolutionary theory is a working hypothesis. After viewing this film I no longer have a problem with Intelligent Design being used as a working hypothesis either. I don't see the conflict anymore.

Any comments? Voija? Iguana?

A lot of people bought into What the Bleep Do We Know, too. From what I understand, Expelled uses similar methods: it's mostly a bunch of well structured statements that seem to contain valid and logical content when in actuality the films is mostly vacuous statements and half-representations of the work of respected researchers.

But I haven't seen it personally, so take my grape-vine knowledge with a grain of salt.

[pockybot]

Katherine1

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

Tell me, if Evolution is responsible for Eugenics and the Holocaust, then why were Darwin's books banned in Nazi Germany? According to Evolution, a larger diversity is better for the population. Eugenics and Social Darwinism go in the opposite direction of that. Nazi Germany goes in the opposite of that.

So, how does Evolution fit into that again?

You'd have to do a lot of research as to what was going on in the mindset of elite academia in parts of America, England and Germany in the mid to late 19th century, as well as early 20th century.
Darwin and Malthus ideas got mutated by people and grafted..."evolved" so to speak, into what became a horrendous idea. Eugenics is one of the most evil things ever spawned in the minds of man, and no Im not saying Darwinism lead to Nazi racial eugenics. But youve got to understand the zeitgeist of some academia circles at the time.

Regardless, I find it funny that this movie exposes the thought crime of merely wondering if there's a designer/designers on some of life...usually the left wing is all about freedom of expression

[Emperor Fluffzorz]

Opium Warlord

It's a shame that we have more evidence of evolution than we do of aliens coming down and beaming us all here.

I see more scientists today discovering links between animals and dinosaurs than I do scientists discovering traces of material in our bodies similar to the materials on Mars. Even if ID could include aliens, we have no proof to make it a theory.

Maybe if someone would like to take up it's study, and find mountains of evidence (like evolution), then maybe it could be taught in schools.

Otherwise, I think that the ID teachings are far from being suppressed by Darwinism; they're just obviously far-fetched.

As many, many "evolutionist" scientists have stated, intelligent design is every bit as valid as any other scientific theory, right up until the massive jump to conclusions. They provide some evidence for a point here, or a point there, which are all fine and valid as hypotheses, then make a massive leap and claim that someone must have obviously snapped his fingers to make it all happen. THAT is what is being discounted here, and nothing else.More thorough research is needed before such a conclusion can be reached.

"Evolutionists", and indeed the scientific body in general, are not saying it is wrong or throwing it out the window due to bias. They are merely stating that more research must be done before it can be considered as a complete theory. Darwin didn't rush in two days after cooking up his theory with a few doodles and claim "THIS MUST BE TRUE!". He worked. And worked. And worked. And worked. Every evolutionist of note has produced exhaustive tomes of research and arguments on their field, and THAT is why it is taught - it has mountains of evidence, and intelligent design, as of yet, has produced little aside from fallacious accusations of Nazism.

Basically, the message here is simple - "We're not saying you're wrong. We're just saying you can't get marked on work half-finished."

It's the ID fanatics who twist that into something that somehow "oppresses" them. The hypothesis will be accepted when there's actual evidence to back it. That's how the scientific community works. Throwing baseless allegations and insults around like Expelled does will not let them skip the system. I don't know why Evolutionists have to be fascist for wanting proper research to be done.

[pockybot]

vipr230

No, you're simply ignorant. And frankly, it's getting tiresome, why don't you do a bit of real research before you actually make up your mind? You're the kinda person who could watch Fahrenheit 9/11 or Loose Change or even the Moon Landing hoax videos and think they represent reality. Just because you see it doesn't mean what you're being told is real. (As a conspiracy nut I'd imagine you of all people should be especially skeptical of videos like that, but for enjoying Expelled, clearly I'm wrong).

LOL! You just said I'm appealing to false claims, now you're making up claims about me.
Wait a second, Fahrenheit 9/11, Loose Change, Zeitgeist etc are all very ANTI right wing documentaries...so wait, how could I like a "right wing" documentary like Expelled?

I can think of a documentary that's full of bullshit propaganda: "An Inconvenient Truth".

also, moon landing hoax videos? Come on now kiddo. Don't try and mix that garbage with documentary films that pose honest questions.

"As a conspiracy nut". Tell me, what is it that makes me a "conspiracy nut". You sound more like a confused liberal, kid.

[vipr230]

pockybot

Katherine1

pockybot

I LOVED Expelled. Saw it opening day.

It goes into a lot of the Eugenics, Nazi social Darwinism and elite mechanisms of control that End Game: Blueprint for Global Enslavement gets into
http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=endgame+blueprint&sitesearch=

Darwinism and social Darwinism is creepy, thats for sure

And what about the origin of the "abortion movement" in America they talk about...makes sense the elite would place abortions in mostly black areas. Killing Jews, killing blacks; this documentary shows how the elite rulers of the world have been using eugenics to oppress people for ages

But hey, Im just a "right wing Christian fundie" for liking this movie smile

Tell me, if Evolution is responsible for Eugenics and the Holocaust, then why were Darwin's books banned in Nazi Germany? According to Evolution, a larger diversity is better for the population. Eugenics and Social Darwinism go in the opposite direction of that. Nazi Germany goes in the opposite of that.

So, how does Evolution fit into that again?

You'd have to do a lot of research as to what was going on in the mindset of elite academia in parts of America, England and Germany in the mid to late 19th century, as well as early 20th century.
Darwin and Malthus ideas got mutated by people and grafted..."evolved" so to speak, into what became a horrendous idea. Eugenics is one of the most evil things ever spawned in the minds of man, and no Im not saying Darwinism lead to Nazi racial eugenics. But youve got to understand the zeitgeist of some academia circles at the time.

Regardless, I find it funny that this movie exposes the thought crime of merely wondering if there's a designer/designers on some of life...usually the left wing is all about freedom of expression

*tries to hold back rage*

Ok... ok...
*breaths*
Right, I'll try to say this as calmly as possible, appeal to consequences is NOT a valid attack on the validity of evolution as a whole, NOR does the idea of eugenics actually fit with the theory of evolution as it would fundamentally reduce genetic diversity. The film links the two unfairly to create a false attack on the theory as a whole.

However, saying "maybe there's a designer" is fine, saying "maybe we should seriously consider the prospect of a designer without a tiny tiny tiny shred of empirical evidence" is not fine. Forget "the left" and "the right" wings, freedom of expression has nothing to do with it, science isn't "I get to say whatever I want and not support myself but expect to be taken seriously" it's "I need to have evidence to back up what I say if I want to be taken seriously". This film shows how ID is attempting to skirt that and UNFAIRLY avoid the entire "provide evidence" bit. ID advocates want to be taken seriously BEFORE they actually present a case to defend their point of view. That's like me actually expecting to be taken seriously by saying "THE MOON IS MADE OF AMERICAN CHEESE, NEPTUNE IS THE SIZE OF MY PINKY, AND THE SKY IS ORANGE!"

[Jaaten Syric]

pockybot

Regardless, I find it funny that this movie exposes the thought crime of merely wondering if there's a designer/designers on some of life...usually the left wing is all about freedom of expression

Except for the part where it didn't happen. Stein's made martyrs of these folks by using a rather novel method used in various places throughout the film; lying. Badly.

Quite honestly, we really don't care what these morons believe, so long as they're not pushing it as science when it genuinely isn't.

[pockybot]

vipr230

*tries to hold back rage*

Ok... ok...
*breaths*
Right, I'll try to say this as calmly as possible, appeal to consequences is NOT a valid attack on the validity of evolution as a whole, NOR does the idea of eugenics actually fit with the theory of evolution as it would fundamentally reduce genetic diversity. The film links the two unfairly to create a false attack on the theory as a whole.

However, saying "maybe there's a designer" is fine, saying "maybe we should seriously consider the prospect of a designer without a tiny tiny tiny shred of empirical evidence" is not fine. Forget "the left" and "the right" wings, freedom of expression has nothing to do with it, science isn't "I get to say whatever I want and not support myself but expect to be taken seriously" it's "I need to have evidence to back up what I say if I want to be taken seriously". This film shows how ID is attempting to skirt that and UNFAIRLY avoid the entire "provide evidence" bit. ID advocates want to be taken seriously BEFORE they actually present a case to defend their point of view. That's like me actually expecting to be taken seriously by saying "THE MOON IS MADE OF AMERICAN CHEESE, NEPTUNE IS THE SIZE OF MY PINKY, AND THE SKY IS ORANGE!"

Aww, look at the liberal getting all huffy and puffy.

I know, I know...Im just evil for questioning things.

"Darwinism is gospel"
"global warming is real and all our fault, its gonna kill us all"
"Islamic terrorists are after us"
"jet fuel can bring down a tall building"

Man, and I thought the conservatives get their panties in a bunch when challenged.

Jaaten Syric

pockybot

Regardless, I find it funny that this movie exposes the thought crime of merely wondering if there's a designer/designers on some of life...usually the left wing is all about freedom of expression

Except for the part where it didn't happen. Stein's made martyrs of these folks by using a rather novel method used in various places throughout the film; lying. Badly.

Quite honestly, we really don't care what these morons believe, so long as they're not pushing it as science when it genuinely isn't.

Who is this monolithic "we" ?

[Jaaten Syric]

pockybot

Who is this monolithic "we" ?

People who understand science, and the scientific method, and, so it seems, these idiots' employers, as not a single one of them was fired despite what Stein's movie claims.