I'm a Jain Vegetarian/Fruitarian

[Suicidesoldier#1]

dolly milk

tfwbtr

I love nature. I always have. I also love animals, children, and caring people. I seek to be as peaceful as I can and respect all life. If you eat meat, why do you do it? I'm not here to have an argument, I'm here to have an intelligent discussion about food.

Because it tastes good. Humans are willing to give up anything, including the life of an innocent, sentient being, just so that they can have a good taste in their mouths. rolleyes

AsuraSyn

But seriously, I eat meat because homo sapiens are supposed to eat meat. It's why it's tasty.

Oh really now? Tell me the last time you ventured out into the wild, tackled and pounced a live animal, and used your razor sharp teeth and claws to kill it and eat its' raw flesh? I'll bet never. Why? Because you don't have those features. Those are the features of a carnivore or an omnivore. Not a human. Just because something is "tasty" doesn't mean you should be eating it. Would you be saying the same thing if somebody found a way to put artificial flavoring of your favorite food in a vile of poison?

Well, spiders don't do that, along with many other predators; plants for instance sometimes eat meat, and they don't move around at all.

It really depends on your hunting strategy, per say; jellyfish don't have teeth, nor squids, nor birds even.


Of course birds do usually have sharp talons and whatnot but.

Being an omnivore doesn't necessarily mean great teeth and claws; pigs, rats, lots of rodents etc. eat meat and are omnivores.


Humans have little self defense, but that's not the same as hunting.

Cows have horns, for instance, elephants tusks, but yet we do not have those; how could we be vegetarians? Truth is that eating habits depend on how you work, and traits evolve base on food, not vice versa. But since agriculture only came around 10,000 years ago and humans have been hunting mammoths and other animals for at least 600,000 years, probably closer to 3 million, we likely are in fact more evolved to eat meat than anything else. We evolved hands and relied on technology.


The sad reality is that humans really have the short end of the stick when it comes to evolution; we can't even create Vitamin C, like rats can, we need a more varied diet. We don't have fur, natural weapons ,and are 5 times weaker pound for pound that gorillas, chimpanzees, and especially things like tigers. We're weak, we walk funny, and we don't have a lot of natural protection, on top of having a pretty crappy digestive system that needs a lot of stuff to compensate for all the vitamins our body doesn't produce.

We've always compensated with technology. Since so few animals do this it's hard to find a good comparison and we really have evolved to have usable hands. sweatdrop

[Suicidesoldier#1]

AliKat1988

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Suicidesoldier#1

Sounds great, but how do you get enough protein and stuff : P

Fruits, vegetables and nuts provide plenty of protein to sustain a healthy diet. If it didn't, all vegans and vegetarians would be very ill or borderline dead. Meat only gives excess protein that we don't necessarily need.

Or just not as healthy; there are living but malnourished people everywhere.

I mean ideal isn't the same as living.


I suppose there's nuts and stuff that provide protein, but what of Vitamin B12, Vitamin D etc.

Those are still pretty hard to get. xp


Are nuts technically fruits?

I guess they're seeds so they could be. xp

Soy, nuts and beans are still eaten by vegetarians and they have enough iron and sufficient B12-by the way your body recycles that so you do not have to eat it as much as you think and as for vitamin D there is this thing called the sun that sends rays out which cause the body to make most of the vitamin D you need.

But Vitamin D acts as a hormone in the gut, which if you don't have it there it has issues even if you produce it in the skin, and B12 is something that you don't really get from a vegetarian diet at all.

I know that vegetarians still usually eat these things, but what about frutitarian?


More than protein is the right kind of protein.

You need a varied amount of amino acids since your body lacks the capability to produce many require amino acids, and many more are good to have even if they aren't technically essential.

[dolly milk]

AsuraSyn

dolly milk

AsuraSyn

Faulty logic, love.
Humans don't have protective fur coats, which is why we developed clothing.
Humans are omnivores, that doesn't mean we have to hunt down and claw out food to death. We survived by using tools and evolved accordingly.

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

Um, no.
Snakes are nothing like wolves, yet they eat similar diets.
Mammals tend to work in packs due largely to the complex mammalian brain. Since we don't have sharp teeth, claws or poison, we found a way to function in a group and kill our prey. If we were truly intended to live on plants, the hunter/gather dynamic would never have formed. An early man would never have looked at an animal and thought about eating it.

I can kind of see where you're coming from, but regardless of whether we hunted in a group or not, it still doesn't change the fact that we wouldn't have survived without the use of artificial weapons. If there were 20 humans in a pack all together going out to hunt a lion with only their bare fists, they all would have died.

[Heimdalr]

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

The blue whale is a carnivore yet it looks nothing like the lynx. I say, one of them has to give up meat because it doesn't look the part.

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

[mellifluous glass optics]

Is it feasible to get all the nutrients the body needs on a casual vegan diet? That is, without having to be particularly careful of what you eat and popping vitamins.

Or just spending a lot of money.

Basically, what about us poor folk? I live on an eastern diet and I have a hell of a time getting enough protein. Meat is expensive, so I usually bounce between tofu and chicken and pork. But vegan food is a whole lot more expensive. Especially if you're allergic to nuts.

[dolly milk]

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

The blue whale is a carnivore yet it looks nothing like the lynx. I say, one of them has to give up meat because it doesn't look the part.

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

The blue whale is a carnivore yet it looks nothing like the lynx. I say, one of them has to give up meat because it doesn't look the part.

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

But is that really required to be an omnivore?

I mean I guess we have teeth and hands; under extreme conditions we could rip apart or dig into a squishy animal I guess. O_o

[Heimdalr]

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

The blue whale is a carnivore yet it looks nothing like the lynx. I say, one of them has to give up meat because it doesn't look the part.

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

The brain is our most potent weapon; tools and items we use can be seen as an extension of the brain. We did pick up a random item from the wilderness, improved upon it using our abstract thinking skills. The hunting that had previously consisted of using our brain to track animals, and our endurance to catch up with them, became what it is today where we lay in wait while unlawfully self-administering schnapps.

[dolly milk]

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

Umm, yes it does. Considering somebody hadn't figured out how to make a weapon, we would all be dead right now. We are useless with bare hands and blunt molars. Just because somebody happened to be smart enough to make a weapon doesn't necessarily mean we were mean to be on carnivorous diets in the first place. True carnivorous animals have very different ways of hunting and surviving, as well as different physical anatomies from us. If we were truly meant to be eating meat, don't you think we would be almost nearly the same as them?

The blue whale is a carnivore yet it looks nothing like the lynx. I say, one of them has to give up meat because it doesn't look the part.

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

But is that really required to be an omnivore?

I mean I guess we have teeth and hands; under extreme conditions we could rip apart or dig into a squishy animal I guess. O_o

I don't know, I've just never heard of any human ever using that kind of method in order to kill something. We've always used artificial weapons for hunting, as far as I know. And I'm almost positive that if somebody went out to a cattle farm and try tried to bite into a cow with their dull a** sad excuse of "canines", they'd probably get charged and run over.

[AliKat1988]

Suicidesoldier#1

AliKat1988

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Suicidesoldier#1

Sounds great, but how do you get enough protein and stuff : P

Fruits, vegetables and nuts provide plenty of protein to sustain a healthy diet. If it didn't, all vegans and vegetarians would be very ill or borderline dead. Meat only gives excess protein that we don't necessarily need.

Or just not as healthy; there are living but malnourished people everywhere.

I mean ideal isn't the same as living.


I suppose there's nuts and stuff that provide protein, but what of Vitamin B12, Vitamin D etc.

Those are still pretty hard to get. xp


Are nuts technically fruits?

I guess they're seeds so they could be. xp

Soy, nuts and beans are still eaten by vegetarians and they have enough iron and sufficient B12-by the way your body recycles that so you do not have to eat it as much as you think and as for vitamin D there is this thing called the sun that sends rays out which cause the body to make most of the vitamin D you need.

But Vitamin D acts as a hormone in the gut, which if you don't have it there it has issues even if you produce it in the skin, and B12 is something that you don't really get from a vegetarian diet at all.

I know that vegetarians still usually eat these things, but what about frutitarian?

You can also get vitamin D from other things like mushrooms and alfalfa. I do not know know if they can eat those but there are multivitamins if they can't. I do think fruititarians will be fine with the B 12 for two reasons, you need little of it (as I said you can recycle it for several months without problems from not consuming it regularly) and I know for a fact that there are fruit drinks and cereals that are essentially food turned into multivitamins-you should check out how much vitamins they list on the side panel of most of them-even the unhealthy sugar cereals seem to be filled with random vitamins. I know one of the fruit drinks I liked to get for awhile had more than enough of each B vitamin.

Edit: Here is an example of one of the most unhealthy cereals out there being filled with vitamins-chocolate lucky charms are far from a health conscious food and they are filled with nutrients:

[Suicidesoldier#1]

dolly milk

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

But is that really required to be an omnivore?

I mean I guess we have teeth and hands; under extreme conditions we could rip apart or dig into a squishy animal I guess. O_o

I don't know, I've just never heard of any human ever using that kind of method in order to kill something. We've always used artificial weapons for hunting, as far as I know. And I'm almost positive that if somebody went out to a cattle farm and try tried to bite into a cow with their dull a** sad excuse of "canines", they'd probably get charged and run over.

The same could be said about a single wolf.

But what if we worked together and coaxed it into a more favorable situation; what if we created a spike pit, instead of finding one to have it land in.


For all intents and purposes this still works.

But is it necessary for humans have these things to be natural predators? I mean technically everything humans produce is either natural since it comes from nature, or unnatural if we consider humans not a part of nature. So there's really no winning unless your definition is solid. xp

[Machine_Gun_Blues]

I'm honestly more concerned about how many pushups you can do, how fast you can run a mile and your overall body and mental endurance rather than what organic heap of carbon and minerals you eat.


Vegan or not, food is just fuel and I don't think majority of this obese western world understands that.

[dolly milk]

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Heimdalr

dolly milk

That's not necessarily what I meant, so I believe you are interpreting things the wrong way. What I mean is that they are capable of consuming other lives creatures naturally, without the use of artificial weapons. And considering whales are probably much larger than most of the other animals in the sea, it takes no effort for them to just swallow all the other fish up whole.

What is natural? Why is it that the chimpanzee can use a stick to extract termites from the nest but I cannot inject the same stick in a snowshoe hare in order to feed my family? Are we not part of nature, and subservient to its rule?

I mean a weapon that is literally a part of our bodily anatomy. Something that we are born with that is attached to our bodies that we use for hunting. Not picking up a random item out in the wilderness and using that.

But is that really required to be an omnivore?

I mean I guess we have teeth and hands; under extreme conditions we could rip apart or dig into a squishy animal I guess. O_o

I don't know, I've just never heard of any human ever using that kind of method in order to kill something. We've always used artificial weapons for hunting, as far as I know. And I'm almost positive that if somebody went out to a cattle farm and try tried to bite into a cow with their dull a** sad excuse of "canines", they'd probably get charged and run over.

The same could be said about a single wolf.

But what if we worked together and coaxed it into a more favorable situation; what if we created a spike pit, instead of finding one to have it land in.


For all intents and purposes this still works.

But is it necessary for humans have these things to be natural predators? I mean technically everything humans produce is either natural since it comes from nature, or unnatural if we consider humans not a part of nature. So there's really no winning unless your definition is solid. xp

But that's the exact same thing I used for the previous example of 20 humans against a single lion. Or in this case, we could use a herd of buffalo since that's usually what wolf packs go after. They usually don't have any issues hunting certain species that travel in large herds, they get trampled and injured, and sometimes they even fail, despite having all of these dangerous bodily features that humans don't. But imagine a pack of 20 humans against a herd of buffalo, no artificial weapons included, just bare hands. I have NO doubt in my mind they would FAIL.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

AliKat1988

Suicidesoldier#1

AliKat1988

Suicidesoldier#1

dolly milk

Suicidesoldier#1

Sounds great, but how do you get enough protein and stuff : P

Fruits, vegetables and nuts provide plenty of protein to sustain a healthy diet. If it didn't, all vegans and vegetarians would be very ill or borderline dead. Meat only gives excess protein that we don't necessarily need.

Or just not as healthy; there are living but malnourished people everywhere.

I mean ideal isn't the same as living.


I suppose there's nuts and stuff that provide protein, but what of Vitamin B12, Vitamin D etc.

Those are still pretty hard to get. xp


Are nuts technically fruits?

I guess they're seeds so they could be. xp

Soy, nuts and beans are still eaten by vegetarians and they have enough iron and sufficient B12-by the way your body recycles that so you do not have to eat it as much as you think and as for vitamin D there is this thing called the sun that sends rays out which cause the body to make most of the vitamin D you need.

But Vitamin D acts as a hormone in the gut, which if you don't have it there it has issues even if you produce it in the skin, and B12 is something that you don't really get from a vegetarian diet at all.

I know that vegetarians still usually eat these things, but what about frutitarian?

You can also get vitamin D from other things like mushrooms and alfalfa. I do not know know if they can eat those but there are multivitamins if they can't. I do think fruititarians will be fine with the B 12 for two reasons, you need little of it (as I said you can recycle it for several months without problems from not consuming it regularly) and I know for a fact that there are fruit drinks and cereals that are essentially food turned into multivitamins-you should check out how much vitamins they list on the side panel of most of them-even the unhealthy sugar cereals seem to be filled with random vitamins. I know one of the fruit drinks I liked to get for awhile had more than enough of each B vitamin.

Well of course you can just take vitamins, or spike food with vitamins, but then you have to get it from copious amounts of food sources or, meat I suppose. You can eat UV spiked mushrooms or fungi, but that's basically your only method.

"Vitamin B12 deficiency can potentially cause severe and irreversible damage, especially to the brain and nervous system. At levels only slightly lower than normal, a range of symptoms such as fatigue, depression, and poor memory may be experienced."


However!

"Due to the extremely efficient enterohepatic circulation of B12, the liver can store several years’ worth of vitamin B12; therefore, nutritional deficiency of this vitamin is rare. How fast B12 levels change depends on the balance between how much B12 is obtained from the diet, how much is secreted and how much is absorbed. B12 deficiency may arise in a year if initial stores are low and genetic factors unfavourable, or may not appear for decades."


Basically since you can't get it from plants, basically at all, you need to make sure you get a lot of it from other sources.

It's a slow process but very important suggesting you need to maintain reserves, as in not deplete them I suppose. xp


I take a multi vitamin every day just in case.

Since there's only harm in WAY over doing it I figure I'll be okay. I thing a meat diet with heavily reinforced high in protein and amazing fruits and vegetables is a good idea, personally. But only eating these amazing vegetables always seems to pose some problems. xp

[dolly milk]

Suicidesoldier#1

The same could be said about a single wolf.

But what if we worked together and coaxed it into a more favorable situation; what if we created a spike pit, instead of finding one to have it land in.


For all intents and purposes this still works.

But is it necessary for humans have these things to be natural predators? I mean technically everything humans produce is either natural since it comes from nature, or unnatural if we consider humans not a part of nature. So there's really no winning unless your definition is solid. xp

And also I don't think humans are natural predators, never were. Whether they're omnivorous or not is irrelevant to that statement. We're still afraid of things that we would (presumably) have no trouble killing with an artificial weapon, but with only our bare hands, we are defenseless. Imagine a human in front of a wild snake for example, if we had a javelin in hand, we would just stab it, no problem. But without that javelin? We're ********. We get scared and run away, because we know it can kill us. If we had teeth and claws, we would say no problem, take it on. There's no risk of not being able to take on the enemy, because we would never be without our natural weapon.