I have questions for you Atheists.

Which are you?

Christian	20.2%	[ 21 ]
Atheist	51.0%	[ 53 ]
Agnostic (a person who holds neither of two opposing positions on a topic)	28.8%	[ 30 ]
Total Votes:			[ 104 ]

[I Wake Up Early]

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

[I Wake Up Early]

Quote:

Yep them blacks shouldn't be accepted by society right? After all, when they marched they can not possibly be accepted as actual PEOPLE right?
Tch, bigots.

Yes, because there is no discrimination against blacks right now rolleyes

Quote:

"You are a filithy disgusting f**." doesn't get through to people in the right way.
How about: "I'm sorry but I don't find men attractive."
Much better and then you aren't going and insulting people. Insulting them, and calling them names is going to get you on the line of 'hate speech' there pal. You aren't being rational about it either I bet. I bet you've told these homosexuals to stop what they are doing right? What right do you have to chose what they do or don't do?
Its like going to a restaurant and ordering steak and a nearby vegan being able to deny you meaty goodness. This is exactly like this. You don't get to chose if I wear pants. So you don't decide who I have sex with. Is this clear? Telling people that YOU deserve to tell people have to live just pisses people off. You are acting like God here. Do you deserve the right to take away peoples free will?
I think not.

Hate speech laws are garbage. I think free expression is important in ANY society. At least you're forward and honest about wanting to censor people, I applaud you for that.

Also, telling someone they can't do something is rather different than actually being able to deny it. That vegan can yell at me all day that I can't eat steak, I'm still going to eat it, just like homosexuals can still ******** people of the same sex, and same sex marriage is becoming more widespread, and is pretty accepted in the western world outside the US.

Quote:

Again calling people names and telling them they are filthy and disgusting isn't going to get you anything but the same in kind directed towards you. Karma is a b***h my friend.

The difference is, that a person saying that to a homosexual is committing a "hate crime", while person B is just "expressing themselves". It doesn't work both ways. By all means, throw all the insults at homophobes all you want, but making a law against them saying what they want is stupid

Quote:

Tell me if you are allowed to tell me what I wear, and then I will tell you how it is prejudiced.

I can tell you, but can't force you. You shouldn't be able to force me to not say my opinion on your clothing, either, just don't associate with those kinds of people.

Quote:

Then you better start reading that bible. Here, I'll make you a deal. You live under 100% biblical law for one year. EVERY law, including possible slaughtering animals for god in the right way, and THEN I will let you decide who I have sex with. But you have to live under EVERY law in the bible to a T. Including asking yourself to be stoned to death for ANY infraction that includes that punishment. You wouldn't make a week. Bacon is a hard thing to give up.

Do you know the difference between old and new testament? Do you know why Christians don't follow Leviticus? This is a bad argument, most will choose to cite letters from Paul that are in the bible over Lev. now anyway.

Quote:

Yes. *stares at you* YES it does. What logic do you have that makes it 'logical' for people to not get a choice on their sexual partner? Are you in the right when you tell people that 'no, you can't have sex with that guy, you have to have sex with this woman instead' even though that this hypothetical man can not even get hard at the sight of a naked woman?

What logic do you have that people aren't allowed to say something that is deemed "hateful", even when it doesn't actually stop anyone from choosing a sexual partner?

[oh wow a cat]

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

Say if you went back in time and you altered the events that created ___ religion. The way it turns out can be quite different, you could do this a hundred times and the results would change.

You cannot go back in time and change the shape of the Earth. Eventually it would have been discovered that indeed it is round, regardless of whatever you'd try to do. Same with discovering how diseases are spread, even during the Black Death the Jewish were persecuted because they had better hygiene and looked at as scapegoats. The sense to figure out things like this wouldn't be lost.

When a religion still has powerful people seeking to oppress others even today then no, it's not cleared of wrongdoing. There are good things in it, but I don't let those good things negate it's more than shaky history.

[Ulrich]

toasega

Oh, boy, here we go with yet ANOTHER religious powder keg just BEGGING to be ignited. Relax, it's not what you think.

Disclaimers:

#1: I am a Christian (Make of that what you will).

#2: I don't know much about the world. I'm also American (Make of that what you will as well).

#3: My views may seem scatterbrained (because I have trouble organizing my thoughts a lot, sorry) or perhaps even ignorant. I refer you to Disclaimer #2.

I'm just a regular guy trying to figure out how the world around him works and what his place in that world is, and one thing I've noticed is the animosity between Christians and Atheists (No, really?! I had no idea they disliked each other!!!!)

But my question is: Why do Atheists seem to hate Christians (and/or other religion followers) so much?

I can understand not believing in a particular religion, and some (many) Christians are overbearing, infuriating people that piss off even other Christians. But even without that factor, it seems like the very notion of religion, Christian or otherwise, is offensive to Atheists, who will often go out of their way to try and convince (or insult) the person into seeing things their way, that there's no God or any form of higher power that governs us.

Furthermore, regardless of the few fanatics, Christianity itself isn't a bad thing to follow. It promotes love, honor and respect for your fellow man and striving to make the world a better place, so what's wrong with that? Why are Atheists so against any type of religion, almost to the point of aggression (physical or otherwise) in some cases?

For me personally, if you're an Atheist, I may not exactly agree with you, but I'm certainly not going to get in your face about it (there are even biblical scriptures specifically telling Christians not to get in people's faces!). Just don't flaunt your views and your true feelings and expect me to stifle mine (although for me this applies more to homosexuals than atheists. It just seems naïve to me that they expect everyone to accept them with no problem, even though no person, place or thing in existence ever in the history of time has been generally accepted by the population. Well, except for oxygen, because you need it to live, and stuff. And even then, your body disagrees with it WHEN YOU DIE.)

*Mentally prepares himself for the Internet Sh*tstorm that is to follow, plunking a military helmet onto his head and grabbing his trusty rifle as he says a final silent prayer*

In the US, most atheists there now, probably were religious (mostly christian) and then eventually stopped believing. There are many factors that could have resulted in their lack of belief (atheism) such as anti-gay scripture of Christianity, intolerance from other Christians, skepticism, critical thinking, perhaps they read the bible (about 1 in 10 Christians have supposedly read their bible) and found out how much of an a** Yahweh was. But that's speculation.

I can only speak for myself, but I think the reason people are against religion and not the religious themselves (however, there are some atheists who are assholes to Christians simply for being christian.). Christianity is problematic, because it teaches people that faith is a virtue, that it is okay to be satisfied with not understand/knowing. The bible is explicit when it says that you should believe (in Jesus) on faith and only through faith you can be saved. And for rationalists/skeptics/empiricists such as myself, faith is not sufficient for us to believe in anything, especially the extraordinary claims that come out of religions like Christianity. Essentially, faith is just a bad method for determining what is true, that's why we discard it, that's why I am an apistevist.

Faith can be harmful, because people who believe things on faith will usually believe anything their religious leaders tell them to. For example, recently there was a preacher who convinced his congregation to eat grass. This is quite a mild example, but still pretty serious.

Atheists generally fight against religion because they want to spread reason or rational skepticism, this is because it is a good way of determining what is true. Kinda like science. Ultimate, reason trumps faith, leading to atheism indefinitely (if applied properly to all beliefs). Criticism of religion is one of the better ways of spreading reason and is why you see it all around.

Quote:

“Criticism has plucked the imaginary flowers on the chain not in order that man shall continue to bear that chain without fantasy or consolation, but so that he shall throw off the chain and pluck the living flower. The criticism of religion disillusions man, so that he will think, act, and fashion his reality like a man who has discarded his illusions and regained his senses, so that he will move around himself as his own true Sun. Religion is only the illusory Sun which revolves around man as long as he does not revolve around himself.”
― Karl Marx, Critique of Hegel's Philosophy of Right

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[I Wake Up Early]

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

Say if you went back in time and you altered the events that created ___ religion. The way it turns out can be quite different, you could do this a hundred times and the results would change.

You cannot go back in time and change the shape of the Earth. Eventually it would have been discovered that indeed it is round, regardless of whatever you'd try to do. Same with discovering how diseases are spread, even during the Black Death the Jewish were persecuted because they had better hygiene and looked at as scapegoats. The sense to figure out things like this wouldn't be lost.

When a religion still has powerful people seeking to oppress others even today then no, it's not cleared of wrongdoing. There are good things in it, but I don't let those good things negate it's more than shaky history.

It's rather debatable if changing which religion was dominant would have led to less/more violence/scientific oppression/whatever, You're imagining the church as we know it to be the worst possible option, when I'm pretty sure it isn't.

So scientific discoveries by religion aren't relevant because they're objective fact? Why care about any discovery or advancement at all then, if we will "Eventually discover it anyway"? Why not take away all funding for the science researchers, since "we will discover it anyway"?

Yes, people are going to persecute others for being different. This is not unique to people who have a religion, nor does religion necessarily cause this.

Who is the church seeking to oppress? Unless you're talking about in the Vatican, their followers are merely using their democratic power to express their opinions on issues they care about. Do you really think most people are completely fine with gays on a primal level, but only dislike them because of religion?

Also, I think genetics, heliocentric viewpoint, seismology, a huge amount of cartography, the establishment of Oxford and Cambridge unis, the foundation of geology... ( I could go on, and on, and on) not to mention their current, prior, and ongoing humanitarianism, generally makes up for the kind of xenophobic, violent tendencies that just about every organization since the beginning of time has had.

[Brothern]

XosmoZ

I can only speak for myself, but I think the reason people are against religion and not the religious themselves (however, there are some atheists who are assholes to Christians simply for being christian.). Christianity is problematic, because it teaches people that faith is a virtue, that it is okay to be satisfied with not understand/knowing. The bible is explicit when it says that you should believe (in Jesus) on faith and only through faith you can be saved. And for rationalists/skeptics/empiricists such as myself, faith is not sufficient for us to believe in anything, especially the extraordinary claims that come out of religions like Christianity. Essentially, faith is just a bad method for determining what is true, that's why we discard it, that's why I am an apistevist.

Faith can be harmful, because people who believe things on faith will usually believe anything their religious leaders tell them to. For example, recently there was a preacher who convinced his congregation to eat grass. This is quite a mild example, but still pretty serious.

Atheists generally fight against religion because they want to spread reason or rational skepticism, this is because it is a good way of determining what is true. Kinda like science. Ultimate, reason trumps faith, leading to atheism indefinitely (if applied properly to all beliefs). Criticism of religion is one of the better ways of spreading reason and is why you see it all around.

What a brilliant post.

[oh wow a cat]

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

Say if you went back in time and you altered the events that created ___ religion. The way it turns out can be quite different, you could do this a hundred times and the results would change.

You cannot go back in time and change the shape of the Earth. Eventually it would have been discovered that indeed it is round, regardless of whatever you'd try to do. Same with discovering how diseases are spread, even during the Black Death the Jewish were persecuted because they had better hygiene and looked at as scapegoats. The sense to figure out things like this wouldn't be lost.

When a religion still has powerful people seeking to oppress others even today then no, it's not cleared of wrongdoing. There are good things in it, but I don't let those good things negate it's more than shaky history.

It's rather debatable if changing which religion was dominant would have led to less/more violence/scientific oppression/whatever, You're imagining the church as we know it to be the worst possible option, when I'm pretty sure it isn't.

So scientific discoveries by religion aren't relevant because they're objective fact? Why care about any discovery or advancement at all then, if we will "Eventually discover it anyway"? Why not take away all funding for the science researchers, since "we will discover it anyway"?

Yes, people are going to persecute others for being different. This is not unique to people who have a religion, nor does religion necessarily cause this.

Who is the church seeking to oppress? Unless you're talking about in the Vatican, their followers are merely using their democratic power to express their opinions on issues they care about. Do you really think most people are completely fine with gays on a primal level, but only dislike them because of religion?

Also, I think genetics, heliocentric viewpoint, seismology, a huge amount of cartography, the establishment of Oxford and Cambridge unis, the foundation of geology... ( I could go on, and on, and on) not to mention their current, prior, and ongoing humanitarianism, generally makes up for the kind of xenophobic, violent tendencies that just about every organization since the beginning of time has had.

I think you missed my point.

And I am using the church as the example here because it's more relevant to this thread and I am not wanting to derail it from there to whatever religion comes next.

I'm afraid that I'm going to have to make it extremely clear for you. The things we know now that are objective fact still would have been found without religion, I don't know where you got it that all funding would be pulled. People are capable of being humanitarians and scientists without religion, but people can't slaughter millions in the name of their god without religion.

There is credit where it's due since it did make a decent base for finding things that you named, but religion isn't really necessary anymore. Naturally, people are going to find excuses to cause wars and widespread abuse. But religion has the honor of being one of the most used excuses for it.

And upon reading "who is the church trying to oppress" I realized that this is probably all for naught in the first place.

[God-the-almighty]

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

Say if you went back in time and you altered the events that created ___ religion. The way it turns out can be quite different, you could do this a hundred times and the results would change.

You cannot go back in time and change the shape of the Earth. Eventually it would have been discovered that indeed it is round, regardless of whatever you'd try to do. Same with discovering how diseases are spread, even during the Black Death the Jewish were persecuted because they had better hygiene and looked at as scapegoats. The sense to figure out things like this wouldn't be lost.

When a religion still has powerful people seeking to oppress others even today then no, it's not cleared of wrongdoing. There are good things in it, but I don't let those good things negate it's more than shaky history.

I think some of those Christian scientists were scientsts first and Christians second. If we are giving religion credit for what people do we need to give Islam credit for the higher mathematics. The only reason Christianity is related to progress now is because what was left of learning was in the hands of the monks in the dark ages.

[oh wow a cat]

God-the-almighty

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

I Wake Up Early

Milky Quartz

The reason why there are atheists who lash out at Christians is because of the violent history it has and even today there are Christians in power who seek to push their beliefs on those who don't share the same view. From taking basic rights from people to pushing creationism in public schools for example.

If it weren't for how destructive religion was throughout history, we'd likely be further along than where we are now.

I'm an atheist and I find this laughable. Other religions have violent histories as well, ans most scientific discoveries were carried out by Christians, not to mention the huge amount of humanitarianism that the church provides.

I didn't want to derail the thread by going about on a tangent about all religions since this one is specifically asking about Christianity. Because of that, I targeted the thing they asked about. It's not that difficult to put together. I certainly can tear some of the other violent religions a new one. smile

And despite scientific discoveries being found by Christians, it doesn't make the things that the religion has caused look much better. Plus it doesn't help that the religion has had it's own people being punished for their discoveries.

I can just understand why people don't like Christianity, especially if they have been victimized by it. I can't say that the good things it's done excuse the bad.

People are capable of doing charities regardless of belief or lackthereof.

Fair enough.

The point was you said people would be further along without without religion, when a lot of very, very important discoveries were by Christans (Gregor Mendell being a friar, for example as well as Copernicus). People are always going to find a cause for war, even in secular countries. The doctrine of the New Testament in itself isn't inherently violent.

Are you saying that Christianity hasn't done enough good? (Heliocentric worldview, foundation of all genetics, etc), or that because of them doing bad at some points, they cannot be cleared of "wrong doing"? Overall, I believe the church is a net positive, even if they have a shaky history in some parts, and I don't share their views.

But I doubt individual people are capable of organizing relief on the level of the church. While non-profits exist, by and large the church does more good.

Say if you went back in time and you altered the events that created ___ religion. The way it turns out can be quite different, you could do this a hundred times and the results would change.

You cannot go back in time and change the shape of the Earth. Eventually it would have been discovered that indeed it is round, regardless of whatever you'd try to do. Same with discovering how diseases are spread, even during the Black Death the Jewish were persecuted because they had better hygiene and looked at as scapegoats. The sense to figure out things like this wouldn't be lost.

When a religion still has powerful people seeking to oppress others even today then no, it's not cleared of wrongdoing. There are good things in it, but I don't let those good things negate it's more than shaky history.

I think some of those Christian scientists were scientsts first and Christians second. If we are giving religion credit for what people do we need to give Islam credit for the higher mathematics. The only reason Christianity is related to progress now is because what was left of learning was in the hands of the monks in the dark ages.

I agree.

There were people who managed to save books back them by making a shitton of copies during the dark ages, otherwise a lot of that stuff would have been lost.

[Ulrich]

Brothern

XosmoZ

I can only speak for myself, but I think the reason people are against religion and not the religious themselves (however, there are some atheists who are assholes to Christians simply for being christian.). Christianity is problematic, because it teaches people that faith is a virtue, that it is okay to be satisfied with not understand/knowing. The bible is explicit when it says that you should believe (in Jesus) on faith and only through faith you can be saved. And for rationalists/skeptics/empiricists such as myself, faith is not sufficient for us to believe in anything, especially the extraordinary claims that come out of religions like Christianity. Essentially, faith is just a bad method for determining what is true, that's why we discard it, that's why I am an apistevist.

Faith can be harmful, because people who believe things on faith will usually believe anything their religious leaders tell them to. For example, recently there was a preacher who convinced his congregation to eat grass. This is quite a mild example, but still pretty serious.

Atheists generally fight against religion because they want to spread reason or rational skepticism, this is because it is a good way of determining what is true. Kinda like science. Ultimate, reason trumps faith, leading to atheism indefinitely (if applied properly to all beliefs). Criticism of religion is one of the better ways of spreading reason and is why you see it all around.

What a brilliant post.

Thanks a lot. But I could have added more, I just have a memory problem.

[Brothern]

I Wake Up Early

Who is the church seeking to oppress? Unless you're talking about in the Vatican, their followers are merely using their democratic power to express their opinions on issues they care about. Do you really think most people are completely fine with gays on a primal level, but only dislike them because of religion?

Also, I think genetics, heliocentric viewpoint, seismology, a huge amount of cartography, the establishment of Oxford and Cambridge unis, the foundation of geology... ( I could go on, and on, and on) not to mention their current, prior, and ongoing humanitarianism, generally makes up for the kind of xenophobic, violent tendencies that just about every organization since the beginning of time has had.

I think you confuse the existence of priest-scientists with Christianity's effect as a religion. Many of these hundreds of noted individuals were not in agreement with Christian orthodoxy -- they were progressives in most all respects, who would have faced contemporary repercussion had they broadcast their ideas publicly.

In addition, their theology usually played a limiting factor in many discoveries. Look, for example, at the multiple instances of creationism. It took geologists decades to understand that species went extinct, the nature of mass extinctions, the geologic time scale, the age of the Earth, and so forth. Why? The Biblical creation story. Every single step forward or new discovery for years was related back to the creation story. It never really occurred to anyone to drop the idea of Creation like hot lead, and work from the ground up using only empirical evidence.

Up until the 20th Century, the Church's ideas played a very large role in regulating scientific thought. The fields of archaeology/paleontology, geology, biology, astronomy and cosmology all saw events where Christian doctrine condemned scientists for their work and routinely demanded recantations.

Outside of that, the historical relationship between science and religion has operated very much like today's relationship. You had moderate/progressive Christians who were open to research and new ideas. Then you had organizations like the Southern Baptist Convention, the Catholic Church and the Church of England - who managed their beliefs and stances in public in accordance to the Bible, rather than empirical research.

[Kaworu 17]

Faustine Liem

Kaworu 17

>Dark Ages

Into the trash your post goes. You do know that the whole "dark ages" myth is Enlightenment propaganda, no? So now let me enlighten you: there were no so-called "dark ages". That myth as is false as that other myth propagated by schoolteachers which states that nobody thought the Earth was round up until Columbus proved them wrong.

Yeah. Sure. No one was ever killed for hersey by the church

>Killed in the Renaissance
>Not during the Dark Middle Ages the age of obscurantism.

See? I told you it was a myth.

[Kaworu 17]

GunsmithKitten

Considering how many billion adherents your religion still boasts, I'd say the media didn't do all that good a job of slandering you.

Considering how centuries old social mores have been completely relaxed in less than 60 years I'd say it's working.

[Kaworu 17]

BlackShadow03

So, just like that you ignore every single part of the post because I used the term "Dark Ages"?

It's like reading something about 9/11 that says "Jews did WTC." I would stop right there, I have no time for such uninformed opinions.

BlackShadow03

I never mentioned ANYTHING about what shape the world was thought to be in...but if I would, I would mention that the Ancient Greeks had a pretty good estimate of both the size and shape of the earth.

Perhaps the ED forum isn't for you if you don't see that I was using another instance of a popular myth as an example for comparison purposes.

[Kaworu 17]

God-the-almighty

I think some of those Christian scientists were scientsts first and Christians second.

I think you're wrong. See: Newton and Boyle for examples.