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I'm not sure if it's true or not, but I've heard the DSM-V will get rid of Asperger's Syndrome.

If they have Asperger's, most of the time I don't even know.
The DSM 5 is getting rid of asperger's syndrome because they could not identify a difference between it and high functioning autism in various studies so it is just going to be called autism with a specification for the different pattern they have from typical autism
AliKat1988's avatar

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Shanovale
As for trying to help, What if the person in question does not NEED help...What if they have accepted whatever they may be afflicted with as a part of themselves,
If they have a disability and are diagnosed and acknowledge then the issue is more about amount of help and when they need it rather than whether their condition negatively affects them. Although quite different from the issue we are discussing here, you might want to consider the concept of anosognosia, since accepting the disorder as normal and healthy can be a problem in itself.
MachineMuse's avatar

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Lillis Amaryllis
I admire your statement. Help is often needed, but then I would be contradicting m first statement. I meant help, as in if they are not normal. What you speak of is an entirely different type of help than what I stated.

So what you're actually opposed to isn't the help itself, but the condescending and dehumanizing way in which it is often provided?
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Shanovale
Apologies for the late reply, As i was busy...In any case, I don't believe that YOU understand the concept of 'Respecting someone's wishes.'


That is quite alright but a moot point.

Shanovale
If the person says they are happy, And say they need no help, Who are you to say otherwise? What buisness is it of yours? Should the time come where they need your help, Then they shall ask for it, Or express their torment in other such ways...If they are happy, And say there is nothing wrong with them, Then you have abolutely NO right to tell them that there is.


You may not realise this but people are prone to lying and to not ask for help. Of course I would not dream of telling a person there is something wrong with them; I accept people as unique individuals.

Shanovale
It is as though you feel their life is determined by your personal judgement, Which is something I abhor. Their life and how they live it is none of your buisness, You are not jesus christ superstar, And you are not a god. If they are suffering and ask you for your help, Help them. If they are living their life happily, Leave them alone. This is the point i'm trying to get across by phrasing it in many different ways, But you are not listening.


Firstly please do not judge me for things which you have said, that is hardly fair.

As I have made abundantly clear I accept people as unique individuals, I do not make it my business to judge people as you insist upon doing whilst maintaining it to be my sin.

I maintain, with regards to the bold text, as I did from the start that helping a person is preferable to social exclusion. It would be easy to segregate the population upon lines of perceived weakness but it is a process I want no part of.

Shanovale
Drop this conversation, It's not worth your embarrassment.


Don't worry I have been associated through conversation with much more embarrassing persons, I am quite robust enough to continue.


Are you not listening? I'm telling you it is not your place to FORCE help upon somebody! You can't MAKE someone accept help, It has to be their choice, And all harassing them about it is going to do is make them retreat from the prospect of help if they are indeed the kind of person who ISN'T happy, And needs help, But refuses it. Them wanting to deal with their problems themselves, If they are suffering for it is one thing. But i'm referring to trying to force help on people who are actually leading happy and functional lives.
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AliKat1988
Shanovale
As for trying to help, What if the person in question does not NEED help...What if they have accepted whatever they may be afflicted with as a part of themselves,
If they have a disability and are diagnosed and acknowledge then the issue is more about amount of help and when they need it rather than whether their condition negatively affects them. Although quite different from the issue we are discussing here, you might want to consider the concept of anosognosia, since accepting the disorder as normal and healthy can be a problem in itself.


Before you quote me, Can you please quote the entire paragraph, And not stop at a comma? I'd appreciate it...
MachineMuse's avatar

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Shanovale
Are you not listening? I'm telling you it is not your place to FORCE help upon somebody! You can't MAKE someone accept help, It has to be their choice, And all harassing them about it is going to do is make them retreat from the prospect of help if they are indeed the kind of person who ISN'T happy, And needs help, But refuses it. Them wanting to deal with their problems themselves, If they are suffering for it is one thing. But i'm referring to trying to force help on people who are actually leading happy and functional lives.

I think you're drawing a false dichotomy between people who need help and people who are happy.

I think if you are diagnosed with a mental disorder, then you do need help. That's practically the definition of it. It's very easy to convince yourself that no, you are different from other people with the disorder, you don't need anything and you can be happy and productive and functional without any assistance. But that's bollocks. Even if you can, what's the point? Some misplaced sense of pride? A fear of depending on other people*? The fact is, you'd have so much more potential if you'd just accept it as a weak point and take advantage of the services that are there to help.

You'd even be doing the rest of us a favour by showing that you're a person with a mental disorder who's motivated and competent - otherwise it'll only come to light when it's the cause of a problem, and contribute to more negative stigma, making it even harder for others to admit they need help.

* This can be for valid reason, since a lot of people with mental disorders suffer from abuse and ostracization precisely because people don't know about or understand it. But it's important to overcome it in order to really be healthy and happy.
Shanovale's avatar

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MachineMuse
Shanovale
Are you not listening? I'm telling you it is not your place to FORCE help upon somebody! You can't MAKE someone accept help, It has to be their choice, And all harassing them about it is going to do is make them retreat from the prospect of help if they are indeed the kind of person who ISN'T happy, And needs help, But refuses it. Them wanting to deal with their problems themselves, If they are suffering for it is one thing. But i'm referring to trying to force help on people who are actually leading happy and functional lives.

I think you're drawing a false dichotomy between people who need help and people who are happy.

I think if you are diagnosed with a mental disorder, then you do need help. That's practically the definition of it. It's very easy to convince yourself that no, you are different from other people with the disorder, you don't need anything and you can be happy and productive and functional without any assistance. But that's bollocks. Even if you can, what's the point? Some misplaced sense of pride? A fear of depending on other people*? The fact is, you'd have so much more potential if you'd just accept it as a weak point and take advantage of the services that are there to help.

You'd even be doing the rest of us a favour by showing that you're a person with a mental disorder who's motivated and competent - otherwise it'll only come to light when it's the cause of a problem, and contribute to more negative stigma, making it even harder for others to admit they need help.

* This can be for valid reason, since a lot of people with mental disorders suffer from abuse and ostracization precisely because people don't know about or understand it. But it's important to overcome it in order to really be healthy and happy.


Ah, But you're avoiding the most important part of my comment....Forcing help on people who won't accept it. If someone isn't willing to accept help, You can't make them, And in constantly pressuring them with your desire to 'Help' isn't going to help ANYTHING. I'd rather not be happy with my life, Then have some random guy coming up to me and saying "You're not normal, You need help, I'm here to help you."

The first thing i'd do in that instance is get in my car and run the guy over till he's the one asking for help. I would understand his good intentions, But would you react differently? Especially if you believe there is nothing wrong with you? Is it not the job of that person's FAMILY to care for their family member, And none of your buisness? Please, Correct me if i'm wrong.
MachineMuse's avatar

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Shanovale
Ah, But you're avoiding the most important part of my comment....Forcing help on people who won't accept it. If someone isn't willing to accept help, You can't make them, And in constantly pressuring them with your desire to 'Help' isn't going to help ANYTHING. I'd rather not be happy with my life, Then have some random guy coming up to me and saying "You're not normal, You need help, I'm here to help you."

The first thing i'd do in that instance is get in my car and run the guy over till he's the one asking for help. I would understand his good intentions, But would you react differently? Especially if you believe there is nothing wrong with you? Is it not the job of that person's FAMILY to care for their family member, And none of your buisness? Please, Correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, I understand.

It's not so much that it's none of their business. But rather that they're overestimating how much they know about the situation. I think the solution isn't to get mad at people who try to help, but rather to learn as much as you can about the disability and the sort of support you do need so that you can confidently and straightforwardly tell them what to do.

Granted, I had this problem with my aunt, and she didn't stop thinking she knew better than me even when she read books I gave her or when I swore to her face. In cases like those I think it's fair to cut those people out of your life, because it gets to the point of being abusive and it shows that they have problems of their own.

But the vast majority of people I deal with are just aware that my ADHD makes me forgetful and poorly organized and that that's not going to change - it's just a small part of me that sometimes gets in the way. So they deal with it in other ways. My doctor knows I won't remember to get my blood taken after a month, so she arranges for her assistant to phone me and remind me even though that's not standard procedure. My professors know my handwriting is slow and barely legible, so they let me use a computer (disconnected from the internet) to write exams.

In a lot of cases, it's like this because I fully explained to them what it means. And it helps them to not get frustrated or confused when something happens because of it, because they knew ahead of time.

I understand that there are people who don't want help, and to some extent I can relate, because I was only diagnosed a couple years ago and before that I was so, so sure that there was nothing wrong. But I wasn't happy - I was in denial. And that's an important distinction.
AliKat1988's avatar

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Shanovale
AliKat1988
Shanovale
As for trying to help, What if the person in question does not NEED help...What if they have accepted whatever they may be afflicted with as a part of themselves,
If they have a disability and are diagnosed and acknowledge then the issue is more about amount of help and when they need it rather than whether their condition negatively affects them. Although quite different from the issue we are discussing here, you might want to consider the concept of anosognosia, since accepting the disorder as normal and healthy can be a problem in itself.


Before you quote me, Can you please quote the entire paragraph, And not stop at a comma? I'd appreciate it...
I get why you object and I will clarify that I regard the portion before it only slightly relevant and the part after as dubious. I also mistook the comma for a period due to the capitalization that followed.

The reason I question the portion I omitted before and is now below was for brevity, but I will explain it now. If the person has a disability yet they regard themselves as normal, it is a little presumptuous to say there is nothing wrong with them based on that. Deviance does not always result in decreased functioning and disability is not just a lack of normality. If they were just not normal and fully functioning in society than they would be eccentric, not disabled. Diagnosis for asperger's is based on the person having a significantly decreased functioning in certain areas. It is not just a description for the person's behavior. People can have the diagnosis of autism spectrum disorder removed if they develop they their social skills enough from what I understand. If someone has an active diagnosis on the autism spectrum, then something is wrong.

Of course, I do agree that it will only create problems if you try to 'help' them without trying to understand or accommodate them, but that just goes back to realizing that you need to know when and how to intervene. If you were going to 'help' someone who did not request it, I would think it might be best to ask the person if they would like to discuss how to handle a specific problem that they are dealing with that is exacerbated further by their condition-even if they do not out right express their difficulty. After all, some times people who know they are struggling try to look stronger than they really are.
Shanovale

Everyone is a unique individual, Wether you accept it or not isn't worth a damn, As it is a matter of fact. As for trying to help,...

...And all attempts to 'Help' the person that needs no help as there is nothing wrong with them, Result in upsetting the individual? Making them self concious, And destroying their confidence?
Shanovale's avatar

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AliKat1988
Shanovale
AliKat1988
Shanovale
As for trying to help, What if the person in question does not NEED help...What if they have accepted whatever they may be afflicted with as a part of themselves,
If they have a disability and are diagnosed and acknowledge then the issue is more about amount of help and when they need it rather than whether their condition negatively affects them. Although quite different from the issue we are discussing here, you might want to consider the concept of anosognosia, since accepting the disorder as normal and healthy can be a problem in itself.


Before you quote me, Can you please quote the entire paragraph, And not stop at a comma? I'd appreciate it...
I get why you object and I will clarify that I regard the portion before it only slightly relevant and the part after as dubious. I also mistook the comma for a period due to the capitalization that followed.


That is a quirk of mine, Please accept my apology if it confused you, As it usually does confuse people but i can't help it.

AliKat1988

Of course, I do agree that it will only create problems if you try to 'help' them without trying to understand or accommodate them, but that just goes back to realizing that you need to know when and how to intervene. If you were going to 'help' someone who did not request it, I would think it might be best to ask the person if they would like to discuss how to handle a specific problem that they are dealing with that is exacerbated further by their condition-even if they do not out right express their difficulty. After all, some times people who know they are struggling try to look stronger than they really are.


I'm aware that people try to look stronger than they are, And attempt to deal with their problems themselves...God knows I know. > 3 >;;;
But there really isn't anything people can do until they are ready to ACCEPT help, And ask for it, That isn't going to have an adverse effect on them...I'd rather simply have the person know that I'm there if they want to talk about it, Or want help, Than constantly harass them. This is what I'm referring to when I say it's something I dislike. If you try to force your helpfulness on people, They're just going to lash out or breakdown, And I don't want anyone to feel that pressure pushing down on them. The point is for you to be there for them when they are ready for your help, Not to constantly barrage them with it like a mouse castle under siege by a cat-apault...Anything else is none of our buisness, And is for that person's family to deal with.
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Ah, But you're avoiding the most important part of my comment....Forcing help on people who won't accept it. If someone isn't willing to accept help, You can't make them, And in constantly pressuring them with your desire to 'Help' isn't going to help ANYTHING. I'd rather not be happy with my life, Then have some random guy coming up to me and saying "You're not normal, You need help, I'm here to help you."

The first thing i'd do in that instance is get in my car and run the guy over till he's the one asking for help. I would understand his good intentions, But would you react differently? Especially if you believe there is nothing wrong with you? Is it not the job of that person's FAMILY to care for their family member, And none of your buisness? Please, Correct me if i'm wrong.

Yeah, I understand.

It's not so much that it's none of their business. But rather that they're overestimating how much they know about the situation. I think the solution isn't to get mad at people who try to help, but rather to learn as much as you can about the disability and the sort of support you do need so that you can confidently and straightforwardly tell them what to do.

Granted, I had this problem with my aunt, and she didn't stop thinking she knew better than me even when she read books I gave her or when I swore to her face. In cases like those I think it's fair to cut those people out of your life, because it gets to the point of being abusive and it shows that they have problems of their own.

But the vast majority of people I deal with are just aware that my ADHD makes me forgetful and poorly organized and that that's not going to change - it's just a small part of me that sometimes gets in the way. So they deal with it in other ways. My doctor knows I won't remember to get my blood taken after a month, so she arranges for her assistant to phone me and remind me even though that's not standard procedure. My professors know my handwriting is slow and barely legible, so they let me use a computer (disconnected from the internet) to write exams.

In a lot of cases, it's like this because I fully explained to them what it means. And it helps them to not get frustrated or confused when something happens because of it, because they knew ahead of time.

I understand that there are people who don't want help, and to some extent I can relate, because I was only diagnosed a couple years ago and before that I was so, so sure that there was nothing wrong. But I wasn't happy - I was in denial. And that's an important distinction.


Doing subtle things like what your doctor arranges for you, And your professors with your handwriting is fine...But in these cases, You were willing to accept the help. I'm referring to people who walk up to you and slap you in the face with leaflets like a jehova's witness. Who sit you down and say "Right, I've been looking up this thing in the internet, And these are all the things that are wrong with you, And this is how i'm going to tell you to deal with them because you have a problem and i'm here for you buddy! :Insert big grin here:" While you're trying to stuff your face with a Mc Donalds Happy Meal. People who, When you're enjoying yourself and relaxing, Make a big deal about your illness and bring it all to light, And never let you have a moment of peace. People who slap you across the face with their help like a drunk grandma.
MachineMuse's avatar

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Shanovale
Doing subtle things like what your doctor arranges for you, And your professors with your handwriting are fine...But in these cases, You were willing to accept the help. I'm referring to people who walk up to you and slap you in the face with leaflets like a jehova's witness. Who sit you down and say "Right, I've been looking up this thing in the internet, And these are all the things that are wrong with you, And this is how i'm going to tell you to deal with them because you have a problem and i'm here for you buddy! :Insert big grin here:" While you're trying to stuff your face with a Mc Donalds Happy Meal. People who, When you're enjoying yourself and relaxing, Make a big deal about your illness and bring it all to light, And never let you have a moment of peace. People who slap you across the face with their help like a drunk grandma.

So people like my aunt.

Yeah...those people can go to hell. But I don't think they are the only people who want to help, or even the majority.

And even that is a bit harsh. My aunt obviously has things wrong with her and there are reasons for that, too. Some of it shows in what she projects onto me, actually - which is part of the frustration. In a way I pity her and wish I could help her. But it's not something I can deal with. Her husband is very patient and tolerant of her antics; I'll let him do it.
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MachineMuse
Shanovale
Doing subtle things like what your doctor arranges for you, And your professors with your handwriting are fine...But in these cases, You were willing to accept the help. I'm referring to people who walk up to you and slap you in the face with leaflets like a jehova's witness. Who sit you down and say "Right, I've been looking up this thing in the internet, And these are all the things that are wrong with you, And this is how i'm going to tell you to deal with them because you have a problem and i'm here for you buddy! :Insert big grin here:" While you're trying to stuff your face with a Mc Donalds Happy Meal. People who, When you're enjoying yourself and relaxing, Make a big deal about your illness and bring it all to light, And never let you have a moment of peace. People who slap you across the face with their help like a drunk grandma.

So people like my aunt.

Yeah...those people can go to hell. But I don't think they are the only people who want to help, or even the majority.


Everyone with half a heart from a Zelda game would want to help, But the point i'm trying to get across is it's not alright to force it onto them. And yay, Someone who sees my POV! (> ; ~ ; )>
I have it and the only person that has tried to "help" me is my past therapist (I don't go to see her anymore). Other than that, I don't tell people in my real life that I've been diagnosed with it. I feel like the effects could only be negative if they know it. So I guess you could say, people treat me like I'm normal because officially they don't even know that I've been diagnosed with something.
MachineMuse's avatar

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Shanovale
Everyone with half a heart from a Zelda game would want to help, But the point i'm trying to get across is it's not alright to force it onto them. And yay, Someone who sees my POV! (> ; ~ ; )>
Forcing it doesn't help, true. But other things can. CH1YO was talking about unconditional positive regard, and she's right about that. One of my friends giving me that was a big help in learning to accept my disorder and seek help and support for it.

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