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Scarred Sword Heart's avatar

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Doesn't Earth have a credit-based economy in Star Trek and other planets use gold press latinum, or something along those lines?

Anyway, in order to get off money, we would have to be willing to take a significant reduction in our stand of living and return to bartering, which I can't see happening any time soon.
Michael Noire
money is the medium of exchange. the concept can be transmitted into favors, boons, cash, knives, sea shells, credits, blood, and even time. History usually reflects a different monetary unit, known as lives, but these lives go by other names:

cattle, flocks, slaves, and serfs.

I believe we are going to be sold on the idea of credits but with our rising police state, will instead reinstitute serfdom and feudalism. That's because feudalism is a kind of invisible slavery where people still work for others and are bound not by chains or prisons, but by starvation, poverty, lack of land ownership, and a complete lack of skills or associated resources to turn profit on those skills. As to the prisoners - they are already in chains - off to the fields they will go. Some day you may see coed prisons, so that they may breed and reproduce more slaves and chattel.

Saying "it aint so" isn't going to prevent it from happening - feudalism is like core of the earth and the bottom of the ocean - everything drifts there unless actively resisted.


You do realise the structure of nations from a legal, political and economic perspective makes a return to serfdom impossible without the most obvious bloodshed and social engineering, right?

Feudalism as invisible slavery? Have you actually researched ANY conditions of peasant labour? Everyone knows they suffer. This is why feudal economies have so frequently seen uprisings, revolts and revolutions.

Saying people are slaves without chains and prisons is also a basic Marxist commentary upon capitalism. In fact, that entire section is essentially Marx's work on alienation from the Philosophic and Economic Manuscripts of 1848.

Feudalism is a basic political state of humanity? Not even close son. It was in fact a very brief mode of European economic organization, and to argue it is the "natural" way politics unfolds is utterly preposterous.
THERE IS NOT MONEY IN THE FEDERATION BECAUSE IT IS A POST SCARCITY SOCIETY. BUILD A REPLICATOR AND COME BACK.
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I thought money was gone in Star Trek because the premise was that the world was basically advanced to the point where resources did not matter and so they started to travel to other planets and places in the universe to foster peace and prosperity?

In the real world, I do not think its possible unless you can somehow DIRECTLY capture the power of the sun. Doing so would theoretically allow you to do anything. Imagine, terraforming, teleporters, instant communications, universal energy constructs. Basically the ability to turn anything into anything.
Brothern
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If I work overtime, I had damn well better get paid. I'm suing if I don't.

Also, the only way to get from a monetary economy to the economy you are talking about is to make resources and goods so abundant and readily available that there would be no point in selling them because anybody could just go out and get what they want. The key really is free power. If fusion or geothermal or some other kind of power could be perfected that would put out more energy than is put in, only then would this be possible. Free power is key for our evolution as a society.

You're right, but that scenario is still not going to ever happen. Resources are scare. End of discussion.
I was simply telling the guy what would be required for the scenario he described to happen. Lol I left my idealism behind with my teen years.
Inconsistent With Reality
I believe money will become fully electronic, globalized, then standardized in regards to lending practices and wages. This practice will then consolidate until the global budget stabilizes and economic cycles become incrementally less severe, after which the credit system is abolished altogether. That's the ultra-condensed version, fit for non-debates like this.
Sounds like bitcoin has a bright future in this economic Utopia.
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Greece will ruin it for everybody.
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Landreth
THERE IS NOT MONEY IN THE FEDERATION BECAUSE IT IS A POST SCARCITY SOCIETY. BUILD A REPLICATOR AND COME BACK.


BUT REPLICATORS BENEFIT THE PIRATES. IT DOESN'T WORK.

WE'RE SUPPOSED TO BE STOPPING PIRACY, NOT MAKING IT WORSE.
And here I thought you were going to link to zeitgeist or something, but it's Star Trek.
Eveille's avatar

Sparkling Reveler

o: I'd been thinking of a similar idea lately, didn't know someone else had thought it up already lol. The more I thought about it though the harder it seemed to implement. Just going to work and doing it for its own sake and then being able to buy groceries, have a home, and buy luxuries because everyone else is doing the work for its own sake and because they have access to all the same things would be amazing.

But then what about the stuff we get from other countries? This would have to be implemented globally and the whole planet has never ever agreed on one economic system. With 7billion opinions, I am not sure it ever will. Also at first implementation I think people would go Katrina-crazy and wipe the shelves clear and ruin everything for everyone by being greedy little shits, especially in the US. If we can get past that point it might have a chance.

That leaves the fact that a lot of supply is controlled by few people and that for this system to work they'd have to be taken out of the picture and our products and services would have to become decentralized. Diamonds and big screen TVs are rare and production would have to be amped up a lot to meet everyone's desires, at least at the beginning. Nor do I believe for one second that diamond and mining companies and any other large conglomerate will give control of their supply up that easily.

Would anyone be unemployed? How would they be entitled to 'purchase' goods and services without providing any of their own?

I can't get the idea out of my head though @_@.
Argus Plexus
If I work overtime, I had damn well better get paid. I'm suing if I don't.

Also, the only way to get from a monetary economy to the economy you are talking about is to make resources and goods so abundant and readily available that there would be no point in selling them because anybody could just go out and get what they want. The key really is free power. If fusion or geothermal or some other kind of power could be perfected that would put out more energy than is put in, only then would this be possible. Free power is key for our evolution as a society.
Couldn't agree with you more, and that is one of our main struggles today... and money and greed is a cause in that struggle.

Brothern
Argus Plexus
If I work overtime, I had damn well better get paid. I'm suing if I don't.

Also, the only way to get from a monetary economy to the economy you are talking about is to make resources and goods so abundant and readily available that there would be no point in selling them because anybody could just go out and get what they want. The key really is free power. If fusion or geothermal or some other kind of power could be perfected that would put out more energy than is put in, only then would this be possible. Free power is key for our evolution as a society.

You're right, but that scenario is still not going to ever happen. Resources are scare. End of discussion.
It's more like we over consume and money is a factor in this gluttony and greed. If things are readily available and there is less of a division, I think people will be less possessive.
Eveille
o: I'd been thinking of a similar idea lately, didn't know someone else had thought it up already lol. The more I thought about it though the harder it seemed to implement. Just going to work and doing it for its own sake and then being able to buy groceries, have a home, and buy luxuries because everyone else is doing the work for its own sake and because they have access to all the same things would be amazing.

But then what about the stuff we get from other countries? This would have to be implemented globally and the whole planet has never ever agreed on one economic system. With 7billion opinions, I am not sure it ever will. Also at first implementation I think people would go Katrina-crazy and wipe the shelves clear and ruin everything for everyone by being greedy little shits, especially in the US. If we can get past that point it might have a chance.

That leaves the fact that a lot of supply is controlled by few people and that for this system to work they'd have to be taken out of the picture and our products and services would have to become decentralized. Diamonds and big screen TVs are rare and production would have to be amped up a lot to meet everyone's desires, at least at the beginning. Nor do I believe for one second that diamond and mining companies and any other large conglomerate will give control of their supply up that easily.

Would anyone be unemployed? How would they be entitled to 'purchase' goods and services without providing any of their own?

I can't get the idea out of my head though @_@.
Actually the idea is technology will be taking care of a lot of labor and the work will be split so people can have the opportunity to explore and learn more. In this kind of society, education would be a big priority. We would encourage enlightenment. Hopefully bettering yourself and the world would be mainstream and a new generation of people raised in that kind of environment would find our ways really primitive. So many jobs like the stock market don't really do anything if you think about it. Most of the people who deal with these kind of things actually do nothing to help society in any way.
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Mutt
Eveille
o: I'd been thinking of a similar idea lately, didn't know someone else had thought it up already lol. The more I thought about it though the harder it seemed to implement. Just going to work and doing it for its own sake and then being able to buy groceries, have a home, and buy luxuries because everyone else is doing the work for its own sake and because they have access to all the same things would be amazing.

But then what about the stuff we get from other countries? This would have to be implemented globally and the whole planet has never ever agreed on one economic system. With 7billion opinions, I am not sure it ever will. Also at first implementation I think people would go Katrina-crazy and wipe the shelves clear and ruin everything for everyone by being greedy little shits, especially in the US. If we can get past that point it might have a chance.

That leaves the fact that a lot of supply is controlled by few people and that for this system to work they'd have to be taken out of the picture and our products and services would have to become decentralized. Diamonds and big screen TVs are rare and production would have to be amped up a lot to meet everyone's desires, at least at the beginning. Nor do I believe for one second that diamond and mining companies and any other large conglomerate will give control of their supply up that easily.

Would anyone be unemployed? How would they be entitled to 'purchase' goods and services without providing any of their own?

I can't get the idea out of my head though @_@.
Actually the idea is technology will be taking care of a lot of labor and the work will be split so people can have the opportunity to explore and learn more. In this kind of society, education would be a big priority. We would encourage enlightenment. Hopefully bettering yourself and the world would be mainstream and a new generation of people raised in that kind of environment would find our ways really primitive. So many jobs like the stock market don't really do anything if you think about it. Most of the people who deal with these kind of things actually do nothing to help society in any way.
Something I can totally agree with you on lol
Exoth XIII's avatar

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Mutt
As we’ve moved away from a labor based economy to a service based economy, social norms have begun to replace market norms.

As a service based employee, my response is "not really." Companies are trying to utilize "social norms" to get more value for what they pay; after all, if you take pride in your work, you work harder, and have higher morale.
The reason they're doing this is solely for the profit, and it doesn't work on anyone with a functional bullshit detector.
Quote:
Eventually social norms can overtake market norms, a social support infrastructure will be put into place, and we’ll have abolished money, developed warp drives, met alien species, and find ourselves cruising among the stars!

I doubt it. People are too attached to the idea of having lots of money; the security, the power, etc. Even those who are poor will refuse to abolish money, simply for the DESIRE to become rich; it's how the communists were stopped.
low iq 111's avatar

Familiar Friend

abolishing money is a terrible idea. guns don't kill people, people kill people.

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