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I am an avid fan of Star Trek. Having grown up watching Star Trek: The Next Generation and continuing on to Deep Space Nine and even a little Voyager, but recently I’ve been watching the four seasons of Star Trek Enterprise. It’s the one with Scott Bakula as Captain Jonathan Archer of the NX-1 Enterprise (there it is to the right) and the only one set in the near future. I have no idea how the seasons were received when they aired but I am really enjoying them because it’s not set hundreds of years into the future, only a hundred and fifty. In future Earth, we’ve developed warp drives, transporters (though we’re not comfortable using them), and have made contact with alien species (no universal translator, just a really good translator).

One of the interesting aspects about Star Trek is how it treats money. Even a mere 150 years into the future, there is no concept of money. People do their jobs because they take pride in their work, satisfaction in their accomplishments, and work hard because they don’t want to let down their peers or their society but receive no monetary compensation. While they get all of their needs satisfied (food, shelter, entertainment), no one is saving for retirement because there’s nothing to save.

It was always difficult for me to see the logical jump from society today to anytime in the future where money is obsolete. Entire industries exist solely because money exists (mortgages, finance, banking to name a few) and you can bet your last dollar they’ll do anything it takes to make sure money keeps on existing. So how are we supposed to get from our money driven world to one where money has no meaning?

By having social norms overtake market norms. It’s an idea I first read in Predictably Irrational. In one of the chapters of Predictably Irrational, Dan Ariely talks about how in the workplace we’ve replaced a bit of the market norms with social norms. In the days of Ford and the assembly line, workers punched in and punched out. They worked for the paycheck, trading in their time, effort, and expertise for money. It was a clear trade, punctuated by the sound of time card machines. As we’ve moved away from a labor based economy to a service based economy, social norms have begun to replace market norms.

I have friends who work 40+ hours a week but are compensated for only forty, the extra being spent “to get the job done right.” I routinely worked a few hours over forty myself to get the job done because I didn’t want to let my team down (I was very fortunate to be on very strong teams that didn’t find ourselves under the gun or behind on deadlines). I didn’t work those extra hours out of the goodness of my heart but I also didn’t do it for direct compensation. I worked those hours because I knew I had an obligation to both the project’s clients and my teammates. It was the social norms, not the market norms that compelled me, and so many others, to work without direct monetary compensation.

It’s an interesting idea and while it clearly doesn’t explain everything, it’s the first time I’ve read of an idea that will even take us in that direction. Eventually social norms can overtake market norms, a social support infrastructure will be put into place, and we’ll have abolished money, developed warp drives, met alien species, and find ourselves cruising among the stars!
Mutt

One of the interesting aspects about Star Trek is how it treats money. Even a mere 150 years into the future, there is no concept of money. People do their jobs because they take pride in their work, satisfaction in their accomplishments, and work hard because they don’t want to let down their peers or their society but receive no monetary compensation. While they get all of their needs satisfied (food, shelter, entertainment), no one is saving for retirement because there’s nothing to save.


First if you are going to quote a work of fiction you might want to be somewhat close to correct. There is money in the star trek universe. It just doesn't seem to hit the military much. As a matter of fact the entire DS9 series is pretty much based around money and trade. you have the ferengi, you have the dominion, and you even have the kardasians running a slave trade which has everything to do with profit and money. this also traces back into TnG where the ferengi were meant to be one of the enemies of the federation, but they found it hard to have an enemy you could just pay off. Oh, and I should also mention that in TOS you had a number of episodes which showed how the federation had to deal with money, and you even have it mentioned in the movies where bones was trying to pay to charter a flight to planet genesis.

So now that your entire point based on a fictional story and having nothing based in reality as we should already be in the middle of a world war and genetically engineering super humans who we will launch into space so that we can have a popular episode and bring about the plot of three of the motion pictures, can you come up with a real example, or is your entire basis for this argument your misunderstanding and errors about the star trek universe? Don't make me fly to vulcan to reincarnate dan so you could be easily mentally whipped by one of the biggest idiots gaia has ever seen.
tererun the horrifying
Mutt

One of the interesting aspects about Star Trek is how it treats money. Even a mere 150 years into the future, there is no concept of money. People do their jobs because they take pride in their work, satisfaction in their accomplishments, and work hard because they don’t want to let down their peers or their society but receive no monetary compensation. While they get all of their needs satisfied (food, shelter, entertainment), no one is saving for retirement because there’s nothing to save.


First if you are going to quote a work of fiction you might want to be somewhat close to correct. There is money in the star trek universe. It just doesn't seem to hit the military much. As a matter of fact the entire DS9 series is pretty much based around money and trade. you have the ferengi, you have the dominion, and you even have the kardasians running a slave trade which has everything to do with profit and money. this also traces back into TnG where the ferengi were meant to be one of the enemies of the federation, but they found it hard to have an enemy you could just pay off. Oh, and I should also mention that in TOS you had a number of episodes which showed how the federation had to deal with money, and you even have it mentioned in the movies where bones was trying to pay to charter a flight to planet genesis.

So now that your entire point based on a fictional story and having nothing based in reality as we should already be in the middle of a world war and genetically engineering super humans who we will launch into space so that we can have a popular episode and bring about the plot of three of the motion pictures, can you come up with a real example, or is your entire basis for this argument your misunderstanding and errors about the star trek universe? Don't make me fly to vulcan to reincarnate dan so you could be easily mentally whipped by one of the biggest idiots gaia has ever seen.
I was just using it as a reference. I think that we will eventually move to a more resourced based society and people will do things they take pride in. With machines slowly taking over most jobs, we will have to rework the whole economy. I think money will be outdated in future. If machines take over most jobs, there won't be as much money switching hands.
How is service labour somehow not 'real' labour? It has been a staple of industrial nations for centuries. It cannot be regarded as incomparible to that of factory workers.

Moreover, the basic communist ideal of provisions for all will require hard political wrangling, and perhaps more importantly, there's nothing so far to suggest that such provisioning would not be abused.
Mutt
tererun the horrifying
Mutt

One of the interesting aspects about Star Trek is how it treats money. Even a mere 150 years into the future, there is no concept of money. People do their jobs because they take pride in their work, satisfaction in their accomplishments, and work hard because they don’t want to let down their peers or their society but receive no monetary compensation. While they get all of their needs satisfied (food, shelter, entertainment), no one is saving for retirement because there’s nothing to save.


First if you are going to quote a work of fiction you might want to be somewhat close to correct. There is money in the star trek universe. It just doesn't seem to hit the military much. As a matter of fact the entire DS9 series is pretty much based around money and trade. you have the ferengi, you have the dominion, and you even have the kardasians running a slave trade which has everything to do with profit and money. this also traces back into TnG where the ferengi were meant to be one of the enemies of the federation, but they found it hard to have an enemy you could just pay off. Oh, and I should also mention that in TOS you had a number of episodes which showed how the federation had to deal with money, and you even have it mentioned in the movies where bones was trying to pay to charter a flight to planet genesis.

So now that your entire point based on a fictional story and having nothing based in reality as we should already be in the middle of a world war and genetically engineering super humans who we will launch into space so that we can have a popular episode and bring about the plot of three of the motion pictures, can you come up with a real example, or is your entire basis for this argument your misunderstanding and errors about the star trek universe? Don't make me fly to vulcan to reincarnate dan so you could be easily mentally whipped by one of the biggest idiots gaia has ever seen.
I was just using it as a reference. I think that we will eventually move to a more resourced based society and people will do things they take pride in. With machines slowly taking over most jobs, we will have to rework the whole economy. I think money will be outdated in future. If machines take over most jobs, there won't be as much money switching hands.


Personally, I think a radical shift towards living rather than survival is a good thing. We have the ability to provide food, shelter, clothing, transportation, and communication access to everyone on the planet. there woukld have to be some alterations in ideas about family size and breeding, but I think that would be great.

Then i look at other humans are realize that though as a society we are capable of these things, as a race we are incapable of getting there. things like hate, greed, and ignorance are all parts of the human race. There will always be someone who wants more than their neighbors. There will always be stealing, violence, prejudice, and all sorts of other things that will promote war, division, and keep us in a society where things are more important than people. There will always be people who side with those who promise them riches above others and they will destroy any attempt at having a balanced society where people can live free. It is not just a few people, it is a majority of people who feel that they want the chance to do better than other people and to lord it over the poor. In a world where there are no poor you cannot do this.

If you think I am wrong just look at the republican party. It is a party based on the idea that there are haves and have nots, and the people who have stuff are elite and better than the poor. This oddly gives the poor the idea that someday they will be a "great" person and can s**t on the little guy. That is what they want. that is how they define their success. Even if you guaranteed them a life free of worry they would still chose the opportunity to step on people.

i am not saying this is all people, but i am saying it is enough of them.
Rose die Valkyrie's avatar
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I'm not an economic expert by any stretch of the imagination (or really even a novice) but it seems like money is just too integral a factor to our society.

I just don't really know how the logistics would work for our way of life if we didn't have money.

What's the alternative? Bartering?

I highly doubt that people will want to do their just to garner respect or prestige.

If someone's not being paid for their services then how are they taking care of their dependents?

I don't know, I think that line of thinking just leaves too many questions without answers.
Blood Valkyrie's avatar
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As long as people trade goods and or services, there will always be a form of currency/money/stuff that is used to get other stuff. Fail thread.
LSD TV's avatar
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Mutt
I am an avid fan of Star Trek.

I stopped reading after this.
tererun the horrifying
So now that your entire point based on a fictional story and having nothing based in reality as we should already be in the middle of a world war and genetically engineering super humans who we will launch into space so that we can have a popular episode and bring about the plot of three of the motion pictures, can you come up with a real example, or is your entire basis for this argument your misunderstanding and errors about the star trek universe? Don't make me fly to vulcan to reincarnate dan so you could be easily mentally whipped by one of the biggest idiots gaia has ever seen.
No, the third world war was around 2060 and the Eugenic Wars where in the late 20th century (somewhere between 1990 and 2000). Khan is already well on his way and we still have ~50 years till WW3 and first contact.
Blood Valkyrie
As long as people trade goods and or services, there will always be a form of currency/money/stuff that is used to get other stuff. Fail thread.


I remember seeing an article about how the Inca apparently "had no money", and that everyone in their society got provisions.Then it turned out they had a state-administrated work roster that included the labour performed by every household.

Because apparently, labour cannot be a commodity and a medium of exchange. Does everyone forget basic Marxism now, or what?
If I work overtime, I had damn well better get paid. I'm suing if I don't.

Also, the only way to get from a monetary economy to the economy you are talking about is to make resources and goods so abundant and readily available that there would be no point in selling them because anybody could just go out and get what they want. The key really is free power. If fusion or geothermal or some other kind of power could be perfected that would put out more energy than is put in, only then would this be possible. Free power is key for our evolution as a society.
Stuch BSc's avatar
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Huh, I was gonna make a joke asking if you took this idea from Star Trek... But then you went and made fun of yourself within five words and saved me the trouble.
Argus Plexus
If I work overtime, I had damn well better get paid. I'm suing if I don't.

Also, the only way to get from a monetary economy to the economy you are talking about is to make resources and goods so abundant and readily available that there would be no point in selling them because anybody could just go out and get what they want. The key really is free power. If fusion or geothermal or some other kind of power could be perfected that would put out more energy than is put in, only then would this be possible. Free power is key for our evolution as a society.

You're right, but that scenario is still not going to ever happen. Resources are scare. End of discussion.
money is the medium of exchange. the concept can be transmitted into favors, boons, cash, knives, sea shells, credits, blood, and even time. History usually reflects a different monetary unit, known as lives, but these lives go by other names:

cattle, flocks, slaves, and serfs.

I believe we are going to be sold on the idea of credits but with our rising police state, will instead reinstitute serfdom and feudalism. That's because feudalism is a kind of invisible slavery where people still work for others and are bound not by chains or prisons, but by starvation, poverty, lack of land ownership, and a complete lack of skills or associated resources to turn profit on those skills. As to the prisoners - they are already in chains - off to the fields they will go. Some day you may see coed prisons, so that they may breed and reproduce more slaves and chattel.

Saying "it aint so" isn't going to prevent it from happening - feudalism is like core of the earth and the bottom of the ocean - everything drifts there unless actively resisted.
I believe money will become fully electronic, globalized, then standardized in regards to lending practices and wages. This practice will then consolidate until the global budget stabilizes and economic cycles become incrementally less severe, after which the credit system is abolished altogether. That's the ultra-condensed version, fit for non-debates like this.

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