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Tipsy Smoker

This is horrible but since you made it racial... I'm pretty sure white people were dling this very thing as they werr immigrating and conquering.
Chahklet
This is horrible but since you made it racial... I'm pretty sure white people were dling this very thing as they werr immigrating and conquering.


...so that revelation makes it different? I don't understand your rhetorical purpose. OP makes it racial and your genius rebuttal is to play right into that?

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Tipsy Smoker

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Chahklet
This is horrible but since you made it racial... I'm pretty sure white people were dling this very thing as they werr immigrating and conquering.


...so that revelation makes it different? I don't understand your rhetorical purpose. OP makes it racial and your genius rebuttal is to play right into that?
Does it even matter in a place like this? He made it racial. To me, it's a problem with humanity. That's why I pointed it out.
N3bu
I guess I should also clarify I'm not against any form of assimilation taken voluntarily by people who wish to do so. I just don't believe excluding those on the basis of their choice not to.


On that basis, doesn't that mean you have no reason to exclude fundamentalist Muslims who prefer their intolerant, neck-chopping cultures? Along with FGM (considered a fundamental cultural practice in some places), honor killings, and so forth? Some Muslims really like beheading people, imposing Muslim law and dietary restrictions, forcing non-Muslims to pay special taxes, convert, or die, etc. Muslims tend to refuse to integrate almost everywhere they go.

Also, would you support denying access to welfare/other government-funded services for immigrants who refuse to assimilate? I don't think it makes much sense for a society to provide welfare to people who want no part of that society except for free stuff.
N3bu
Kaltros

It seems like a silly idea that some 'community' is formed the instant somebody crosses the border. Do I become Australian the moment after I set foot anywhere in Australia? How about if I stand up and demand my right to be possibly the first Americo-Australian Prime Minister of Australia? Has there ever been an American immigrant Prime Minister of Australia before? If not, that's a glass ceiling that really needs to be smashed pronto. And if you don't want the first American-Australian Prime Minister, well, you're xenophobic. If I don't get the PM job it will be a sign of the deeply flawed, discriminatory, closed-minded nature of Australia.


I have no idea where you got that line of reasoning. Literally, I don't understand how you jumped to arguing about foreign born Prime Ministers.

Also, in case you were wondering, our current Prime Minister was born in England.


To an Australian mother. And his English father spent about 17 years in Australia before returning to England. And when Abbott was about three the family moved back to Australia, where it appears he grew up for the rest of his childhood and early life.

I had in mind immigrants who immigrated when they were basically adults.



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Hmm. I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to say. That native Australians (in the sense of those who were born and grew up there) should learn to fit in and adopt the immigrant cultures? Isn't that a bit like a house guest demanding that the family that's lived in the house for ages suddenly treat him like a king and do everything he wants?

Not sure how you got there. I was referring to the implication that if we demand immigrant assimilate to our tastes at what point do we start telling citizens to assimilate to a rigid cultural-nationalistic structure, "for their own good". To be fair, that entire line doesn't go down well where I live, the government once tried to dismiss it's own critics as not being "Australian Enough", the response was less than enthusiastic.


Well, what's the point of even calling it Australia if you don't have any way to tell what is Australian and what isn't? If the cultural-nationalistic structure isn't at least a little rigid, you have no culture and no nation. Just a chaotic group of different gangs. A replay of the Tower of Babel.


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I mean, at least to my mind, telling one group of people to assimilate to a largely arbitrary standard like culture, isn't far from telling other people to adhere to other equally arbitrary standards for the benefit of the government. To be fair, Arbitrary wasn't the word I wanted to use there, I couldn't think of the one I wanted.


The difference here being that assimilation benefits the common people, who gain things like social cohesion, higher levels of social trust, and so forth. Modern societies require high levels of social trust to function.


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I don't see why you underrate unity, social cohesion, a single shared culture, greater social trust and comfort, and so forth.

I underrate assimilation. Convert or face the consequences is usually not a great way to go. Strike all that, that entirely subjective and based on what you views as a good outcome.

I don't really believe in telling people they need to be or conform to norms that aren't of use.


Maybe things are different in Australia, but in America I find that many Liberals demand that I conform to their progressive ideas. If I deviate from their ideas at all I'm basically outcast, beyond the pale, etc. Which is kind of amusing since they keep telling me they're the party of inclusion and tolerance. Well, they give a good talk anyway!

People higher up than me have gotten the ax for not following the progressive party line. Brendan Eich was forced to step down, and on and on. There are far too many examples of liberals demanding total adherence to their orthodoxy. And then making it personal and going after your daily bread if you don't obey.

I sure hope things are different in Australia, but I'm skeptical.


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Some things are useful to conform to, like local language, but other things with culture like, food, or customs upon entering the house are dumb things to have to conform to.


If Australia follows America's lead, soon it will be unacceptable even to ask them to conform to the local language. "How dare we force our language on them! Instead we have to hire interpreters so they can keep speaking their own language. And if you suggest that's maybe an expensive and bad idea, well, you're racist."
Kaltros
N3bu
I guess I should also clarify I'm not against any form of assimilation taken voluntarily by people who wish to do so. I just don't believe excluding those on the basis of their choice not to.


On that basis, doesn't that mean you have no reason to exclude fundamentalist Muslims who prefer their intolerant, neck-chopping cultures? Along with FGM (considered a fundamental cultural practice in some places), honor killings, and so forth? Some Muslims really like beheading people, imposing Muslim law and dietary restrictions, forcing non-Muslims to pay special taxes, convert, or die, etc. Muslims tend to refuse to integrate almost everywhere they go.

Also, would you support denying access to welfare/other government-funded services for immigrants who refuse to assimilate? I don't think it makes much sense for a society to provide welfare to people who want no part of that society except for free stuff.

Well I consider certain legal issues a baseline of sorts.

The Law has to exist irrespective of culture. You can't kill people, you can't force your cultural or religious beliefs on others, and so on.

I mean, if they don't want to follow the law, then you know, they don't have to be here so they can leave. Unless the law is being discriminatory, but that definitely come down to a matter of circumstance than rule of thumb.
Kaltros

Well, what's the point of even calling it Australia if you don't have any way to tell what is Australian and what isn't? If the cultural-nationalistic structure isn't at least a little rigid, you have no culture and no nation. Just a chaotic group of different gangs. A replay of the Tower of Babel.
Well, a cynic would tell you we don't have much of a culture anyway. In terms of age we are a fairly modern and young nation and our cultural and national identity is a bit over the place because modern politics has tried to play with that football to often in it's young life span.

Like there are 3 main elements:
- Egalitarianism, which was part of the foundation of our society of Economic Criminals who were sent here under the oversight of Rich British landowners. We has a stint is a fairly socialist country and even now have a fairly strong Labor movement, of which one our party's is meant to represent.

- Anzacs, which is a cultural identity that branches off the first one due to the nature of the Anzac story.

- A whole bunch of seemingly random commercialized 80s bullshit that the rest of the world associates with Australia that stems from the idealized working class pass time, like AFL, meat pies and Australian cars.

In fact as of recently there has been a bit of questioning, in the media and intellectual circles about defining what it means to be Australian. There has been a trend away from commercialized national icons and back into Egalitarianism, which is why the governments "hard cuts" budget got received so harshly. But it went to show that not even natives have a good grasp of what it means to be Australian, so it seems dumb to try and push ideals of bullshit 80s icons on migrants when such things are barely relevant.

Most migrants try to pick up the idea of egalitarianism simply by the nature of being migrants and wanting a "fair go". In fact the only ones who don't seem to assimilate to that very well are the few American migrants we get, which is actually a little funny.


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The difference here being that assimilation benefits the common people, who gain things like social cohesion, higher levels of social trust, and so forth. Modern societies require high levels of social trust to function.

I'll be honest, I trust it less than I value that social cohesion, to an extant. It would be nice if our country had a cohesive idea about a national principle of egalitarianism and it reflected politically, but past that I can easily imagining telling young adults and children to conform and assimilate into the borg collective of respectable suburbia and gated communities, an action which seems contrary to our current culture and quite repulsive.


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Maybe things are different in Australia, but in America I find that many Liberals demand that I conform to their progressive ideas. If I deviate from their ideas at all I'm basically outcast, beyond the pale, etc. Which is kind of amusing since they keep telling me they're the party of inclusion and tolerance. Well, they give a good talk anyway!

People higher up than me have gotten the ax for not following the progressive party line. Brendan Eich was forced to step down, and on and on. There are far too many examples of liberals demanding total adherence to their orthodoxy. And then making it personal and going after your daily bread if you don't obey.

I sure hope things are different in Australia, but I'm skeptical.

We don't really have "Liberals" in that sense because our politics is split historically down Economic lines. There is something of a collective shun of bigots and bigotry, but we don't have any one group or party that has really successfully represented the Social Progressive movement with any significance. Our parties tend to pick up movements as they become important and relevant and push them through and then drop them once they're done.


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If Australia follows America's lead, soon it will be unacceptable even to ask them to conform to the local language. "How dare we force our language on them! Instead we have to hire interpreters so they can keep speaking their own language. And if you suggest that's maybe an expensive and bad idea, well, you're racist."

Well, I don't think you need to speak English here. But either way those people exist, and they aren't that huge enough burden on the country. They're usually self conscience about their own difficulties adapting and fitting in.
Glorious Leader Luna
Times Of War

Long story short, a handful of "Asians" (read Muslim, majority Pakistani)


They are third generation Asian British.

they are as likely Muslim as most English are Christians


responding again:

http://www.cnn.com/2014/08/28/world/europe/uk-child-sexual-exploitation/index.html?c=&page=1

>The perpetrators often worked together and were mostly of Pakistani heritage; the victims were mostly white girls, the report says.

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