[ Poll ] Heaven Does Not Make Sense

Heaven:

Exists.		43.6%	[ 17 ]
Doesn't exist.		56.4%	[ 22 ]

Total Votes: 39

[The Great Heat Miser]

Im_the_real_Crystal

The Great Heat Miser

That didn't describe heaven. That described New Jerusalem. It even said that New Jerusalem came out of heaven. How the hell could New Jerusalem by heaven if it's coming out of heaven? It's bad enough to suggest that a city could come out of nowhere, and now you're suggesting that it could come out of itself?

I think you're getting heaven confused. It's easy to do, you see they're three heavens right now.
1. The atmosphere above Earth
2. Space
3. Where the angles are.
When Christ comes back then only the first two will exist and the new Earth will be "heaven"

1) You're not good at dodging questions. Nothing you've said addresses the problem with the scripture you used in an attempt to support yourself.
2) Where the hell did this come from? Where does it say that three heavens exist?
3) If heaven is where the angles are, wouldn't math classes bring some kind of joy?

[Im_the_real_Crystal]

The Great Heat Miser

Im_the_real_Crystal

The Great Heat Miser

That didn't describe heaven. That described New Jerusalem. It even said that New Jerusalem came out of heaven. How the hell could New Jerusalem by heaven if it's coming out of heaven? It's bad enough to suggest that a city could come out of nowhere, and now you're suggesting that it could come out of itself?

I think you're getting heaven confused. It's easy to do, you see they're three heavens right now.
1. The atmosphere above Earth
2. Space
3. Where the angles are.
When Christ comes back then only the first two will exist and the new Earth will be "heaven"

1) You're not good at dodging questions. Nothing you've said addresses the problem with the scripture you used in an attempt to support yourself.
2) Where the hell did this come from? Where does it say that three heavens exist?
3) If heaven is where the angles are, wouldn't math classes bring some kind of joy?

rolleyes What you just said doesn't make any sense.

[Vixianna]

EsgarBlackpoxs

Wouldn't heaven be a paradise for the soul not the flesh? Read something to that effect once.

Yes. and the flesh is what wants things like the OP, described. Sex with multiple women/men, to rebel against God, to seek to do nothing. The spirit is whole and delights in serving the Lord, Heaven is not a place of laziness, our souls serve God gladly in the job our souls were meant to do. That means MJ is probably singing in the Chorus for God, because if anything that guy was made to sing and dance.

Either you've been talking to some very weak in faith Christians with poor understanding of the faith, or you pulled that s**t from your a**.

[The Great Heat Miser]

Im_the_real_Crystal

The Great Heat Miser

Im_the_real_Crystal

The Great Heat Miser

That didn't describe heaven. That described New Jerusalem. It even said that New Jerusalem came out of heaven. How the hell could New Jerusalem by heaven if it's coming out of heaven? It's bad enough to suggest that a city could come out of nowhere, and now you're suggesting that it could come out of itself?

I think you're getting heaven confused. It's easy to do, you see they're three heavens right now.
1. The atmosphere above Earth
2. Space
3. Where the angles are.
When Christ comes back then only the first two will exist and the new Earth will be "heaven"

1) You're not good at dodging questions. Nothing you've said addresses the problem with the scripture you used in an attempt to support yourself.
2) Where the hell did this come from? Where does it say that three heavens exist?
3) If heaven is where the angles are, wouldn't math classes bring some kind of joy?

rolleyes What you just said doesn't make any sense.

Don't get caught up on the last one. It was a joke based on a typo you made.

Quote:

1) You're not good at dodging questions. Nothing you've said addresses the problem with the scripture you used in an attempt to support yourself.
2) Where the hell did this come from? Where does it say that three heavens exist?

Concentrate on those instead.

[Im_the_real_Crystal]

Sorry I did make a typo.

Why would I want to dodge a question when I can just answer them?

2Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

[The Great Heat Miser]

Im_the_real_Crystal

Why would I want to dodge a question when I can just answer them?

That's a good question. I suppose it means you have a response.

The scripture you quoted earlier was discussing New Jerusalem, a city that came out of heaven. Why do you call that heaven? How does it make sense for a city that comes out of heaven to also be heaven?

Quote:

2Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Well, I'll be damned. A vague reference to a third heaven.

[Celeblin Galadeneryn]

Syndactyly

So a lot of us know that Hell doesn't make sense.

Which version of Hell? It's not like the bible only describes one hell or anything.

Quote:

But why don't many question Heaven? I think it makes even less sense. See, when you die, as a Christian, if you were a Good person you go to Heaven, with everyone else who was Good. You all gather there, to pretty much do exactly what you did here on Earth: live. They call it the "afterlife," you go about your everlasting day in a perfect world.

There isn't one version of Heaven either. There's the belief that the soul becomes subsumed under and thus one with God, Papias gives heaven three layers with differences of "Production", and Irenaeus backs that up.

Quote:

See, Heaven does not take place on a planet.

For certain Mormons, it does, as well as the Orthodox belief that near the end, Heaven merges with Earth.

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It takes place in a magic universe where whatever you want is yours.

I have never heard a scholarly interpretation of the Christian heaven such as this.Where are you getting this from?

Quote:

Also, everyone exists in Heaven together. But what if someone wanted to be alone? Would that mean everyone else would cease to exists? When the desires of two people in Heaven conflict with each other, what happens? There would be no compromise, as Heaven grants your every last desire.

You're again not being very helpful in thinking that there is only one version of Heaven, since many hold that desires are not fulfilled, but removed. So in short, no one would want to be alone, because they wouldn't want anything.

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You are no longer bound by physical laws, but you take the form of a body anyway, but a perfect one.

This is generally from the point of view in which Heaven merges with earth.

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You can eat all the food you want, or choose not to.

Actually part of a perfect body is no longer consuming food at all.

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But no one explains if you can be kicked out of Heaven. With your perfect body, you might want to have sex, with about 13 women, with your 13 dicks... Would that be your ticket to Hell from the afterlife?

Again, a lot of early Christian writings point to Heaven removing desires, not leaving them there. This is kind of solidified at the end of Isaiah 35, which describes Heaven as everlasting joy, as in a state in which you want for nothing, be it sex, food, alone time or something else. You don't want it because you want for nothing.

Quote:

If everyone in Heaven gets what they want,

Is everlasting joy, the state of being made happy eternally really getting everything you want, or is it God taking away your desires, you know, as the bible seems to suggest.

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there is no way they can all live in harmony.

When you are subsumed to the state of eternal bliss, as in the Roman Catholic belief, there's no other way to live but in harmony, since your desires are gone due to your eternal grace.

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And there is no doubt in my mind that people, even Good Christians, will have sinful desires.

What does that matter when they're gone?

Quote:

Heaven doesn't say "no" to anything,

Actually, it kinds of says no to free will. You're just happy. Nothing else.

so would you simply not be part of the Kool Kidz Klub anymore, and be banished an eternity of suffering? God DAMN you for having sinful desires.

Quote:

It makes me think that eventually everyone would make it to Hell. An eternity gives you plenty of time to sin. So what's the point of Heaven anyway? It's completely conditional.

Well, then people say that once you reach Heaven, you'll be enlightened and no longer have any sinful desires. But out the other side of their mouth they'll tell me they'll be the "same person." They're trying to imply that they've never had sinful desires, but then they ALSO say that sin is human nature, because of what Adam and Eve did. The contradictions are astounding.

This sounds like you don't actually understand what was told to you, or they did a piss poor job of it.

Enlightened, by the modern meaning is a horrible word for it because you're not necessarily going to share in the knowledge of God. Nor do they become one person, in those versions of heaven you lose your sense of self and become subsumed to God.

And while sin is human nature, it is overrided by the grace of God for instance what the Catholics call dying in a state of grace, so effectively, in the process of becoming perfect, you lose the negative parts of human nature.

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In short, a lot of EDers know that Chrstianity doesn't make any ******** sense. But I know there are Christian debaters (dare I say oxymoron?).

Yes, because mocking them helps your case.

And yes, I say them, because I'm not Christian, yet I have studied heaven and understand it's nature insofar is it is described in Christian writings.

Quote:

So.

WTFUXUPW/ Heaven?

Mostly that you seem to not understand a lot of the concepts of Heaven, like what perfection of the body and soul means, enlightenment vs purification and why being called back to the substance of God is not the same as becoming one person.

[Suougibma]

Does no one consider the contradictions and irrationalities to be thoroughly entertaining, or is it just me... =[

[Dion Necurat]

Actually, the description of Heaven is vague enough that you can come up with your own interpretation.

[Nainboruto]

When I die, I doubt I'm going to spend eternity in just one place. I'm too restless. sweatdrop I'll probably travel back and forth between Heaven and Hell due to my restlessness and reincarnate fairly quickly.

[Syndactyly]

Celeblin Galadeneryn

Quote:

Also, everyone exists in Heaven together. But what if someone wanted to be alone? Would that mean everyone else would cease to exists? When the desires of two people in Heaven conflict with each other, what happens? There would be no compromise, as Heaven grants your every last desire.

You're again not being very helpful in thinking that there is only one version of Heaven, since many hold that desires are not fulfilled, but removed. So in short, no one would want to be alone, because they wouldn't want anything.

Then people need to stop claiming their consciousness and memories remain intact.

[Syndactyly]

Dion Necurat

Actually, the description of Heaven is vague enough that you can come up with your own interpretation.

This is accurate, as far as I can tell. But I'm no Bible scholar.

[Im_the_real_Crystal]

The Great Heat Miser

Im_the_real_Crystal

Why would I want to dodge a question when I can just answer them?

That's a good question. I suppose it means you have a response.

The scripture you quoted earlier was discussing New Jerusalem, a city that came out of heaven. Why do you call that heaven? How does it make sense for a city that comes out of heaven to also be heaven?

Ok, I'll try my best to explain though I think my father would be much better at it.

In Revelations 21 you can find out all about the city, it's descending from the third heaven, but it also is the third heaven. So when it is put here on Earth all that are saved are going to live in that city. Does that help any?

The Great Heat Miser

2Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.

Well, I'll be damned. A vague reference to a third heaven.

Glad you like it, now will you please not cuss there is no need for that. Also I'll be glad to respond to you in the morning, I'm going to bed for now, if you have any question please feel free to PM me.

[Vixianna]

Syndactyly

So sinners can go to Heaven, as long as they believe in Christ?

I hate to paraphrase my book at you but,

"For we are all sinners and fall short of the glory of God"
"For the wages of sin is death..."
John 3:16 "For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten son, that who so ever believes in him, shall not perish but will have ever lasting life." Sinners who do not know Jesus go to Hell. Everyone on Earth is a sinner, so yes sinners as a technical for those who have at some point in their life committed sin, are in heaven. However, the "blood of Jesus" washes away the our sins, and as you grow closer to God the urge to do sinful things lessens.

Syndactyly

So heaven exists on Earth? After we're dead? Because these things obviously haven't happened yet. Will we resurrect from the dead like Jesus?

Not exactly. Before the coming of Jesus, the second coming, the saved exist in heaven. That is the realm where God and Jesus is. After the second coming, and after the tribulation, and Lucifer's final defeat, A "New Earth" is established. This earth isn't heaven, but how earth should have been, i.e., like the Garden. A place with no crying, no pain, and no death. As far as I know, there will be access and commune between this perfect Earth and Heaven, but I'd have to check on that one.

Syndactyly

A lot of people say this. They never quote the Bible though. So I'm left confused.

I see. Well try to ask them for quotes dude or at least paraphrases you can look up, it'll stop silly stuff like that. However, if we are perfect in our faith, we would be able to preform "miracles" like Jesus. So After everything is said and done, it would be possible. This might be where they are getting those ideas.

Syndactyly

So once you're in Heaven, you're set?

Basically. I can't think of anything that would mess that up for you dude. Life is perfect, you are serving your Lord in the way you were made to, there is no pain, and only peace. I can't think of anything better.

Syndactyly

I thought people got whatever their heart desired in Heaven. Even Christians have sex for pleasure.

Yeah no. Their heart's desires are what God's desires are. And God doesn't desire for you to have random heaven stranger sex. It would be pointless at that point too, because there would be no family's, only the family of God. There would also me no marriage, so there wouldn't be any sex, and you wouldn't have any desire for sex anyway.

Syndactyly

So people will come back as zombies here on Earth? Heaven is "in progress" waiting to happen here on Earth? Where do the souls go while they wait?

Um no. They aren't Zombies, but their bodies are made perfect. As they were in the Garden and free from the desires of the flesh. They are once again living. Heaven is in Heaven. It's kinda like Air Force One. It's Air Force One because the president is one it. It's Heaven because God is there. The souls go to heaven if they have a relationship with God through Jesus. Jesus is kinda like the defense case lawyer when you've really messed up. Think of it like there's conclusive evidence that you've F-up your ticket to Heaven. Jesus is like " No problem! I've got a free one right here, all complimentary for having a relationship with me and my father. And Jehovah please don't worry about those details, they repented and believe in me so it's cool." That's the updated modern version of the explanation of Christ's grace.

Syndactyly

So people no longer sin? Does that mean they no longer can sin? Is the free will lost once you die?

People still sin all the time. Here before and even after they accept Christ. But as they move forward in their walk with him, God's heart becomes their own, and they don't want to sin anymore. They still can, but it's easier to chose not to. As for free will after death, you are going to have to clarify.

Syndactyly

I never said God's last name was "damn." Damn is a verb. He shall damn the sinful people, right? Send them to Hell? Banish them for eternity?

Yes...those sinful unrepentant souls, who are not saved by Jesus' blood.

Syndactyly

So once you're in Heaven, you're safe?

You asked the same question twice you know that right? In response to this time, I'd say, sinning is the desire of the flesh, a sinful flesh you no longer have in you, once your body is remade "perfect" and whole.

Syndactyly

Explain why it's wrong that people won't be the "same person."

Who you really are, is not a sinful being at your core, in your soul. Your flesh is sinful, but your soul is the part of you, the part of you that gives you your personality, temperament, disposition, and "fruits of the spirit". That part of you is the real you, and the part that stays the same, and is given a new non-sinful desire filled body. So you no longer sin.

Syndactyly

So once we die, we're no longer human?

Yes and No. We no longer have our old sinful flesh body, that was human because of our soul, but our soul IS inherently human. So when you die you become a human soul, and depending on whether or not you believe in Jesus or not, and if you accept him into your heart, you are sent to Heaven or Hell.

Syndactyly

There's a lot of contradiction, I think I've explained quite a few of them.

Not really, it's mostly your lack of real knowledge about my religion.

Syndactyly

I don't think it makes a whole lot of sense, I have a lot of questions.

Questions that would be solved if you:
1) Read the Bible like Bibi said, and don't take second hand knowledge from a non-pastor/Theologian.
2) Attended a few sermons, that would help too.