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from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Fanatical Zealot

Old Blue Collar Joe
DisenchantedYoungAdult
Suicidesoldier#1

I never said I only wanted the government armed,


I never said you did. Someone in your thread did and I was just pointing out how ludicrous that idea is.

Suicidesoldier#1
and one incident does not mean all cops are evil. Even one specific video or thing you watched could have been taken out of context, or could have been an isolated incident


And what happens when that number gets in the hundreds are thousands? There are more cops out there who enjoy throwing their perceived authority around then those that aren't and everyone with an internet connection knows it.


Suicidesoldier#1
By legal firearms I meant firearms that came from civilian legal stores. While these are rarely responsible for crime, whatever small amount is remaining could be reduced. It would, further delineate criminals and civilians. If guns weren't required to be traceable for example we would never know which guns were garage guns and which we made by law abiding manufacturers in the first place to figure out where the problem guns are.


That's the problem. Nothing makes a gun a problem gun. Is shutting down a manufacturer or gun store fair just becasue some people bought guns from those people and committed crimes with them? This only leads to blaming the gun for the problem instead of the people. A business owner has no way of knowing if they're selling a gun to someone that might commit a crime with it.

In short, simply knowing where the gun came from won't fix the problem.


You read his post history, you'll discover a strong fanboyish attitude toward Obama and his friends. And disarming the people is something he is a fan of, he just has enough sense to know to go after them one at a time, rather than all at once.

We have 300 million privately owned firearms. He wants to talk about a 'drop in the bucket' used in criminal activities? Firearm crime equates to less than 1% of all firearms owned in this country.
Shall we calculate the number of cops who brandish, shoot a pet or at a person and calculate a percentage? This almost blind willingness to follow authority because 'they're authority' is detrimental to all our rights, and continues the erosion of them.

As has been pointed out to him numerous times, and he constantly refuses to acknowledge, because it nullifies his entire point. A stolen firearm is a stolen firearm. I want him to show a percentage.
Because it is CHEAPER to buy a full auto AK-47 off the black market than to buy a fully legal semi-automatic that is dressed up to look like an AK.
And are the cops too ******** stupid to know that the guns are predominately registered when bought any damned way? Or is he, again, relying on the stupidity of the average person to believe bullshit?


Wasn't I the one that showed you black market Ak-47 costs? O_o

Anyways, guns coming from legal civilian stores, whether stolen or not, would still be law abiding citizens contributing to the problem. Where the guns originate from matters; if we ban all gun stores from producing guns, then all stolen guns coming from gun stores would cease to exist on the black market. Thus, I lump stolen civilian guns in with legally produced firearms, since they are.

They do make up an over-all small percentage of crime guns; regardless, if we didn't have an overly redundant safety system, then legal firearms would probably make up the bulk of those used by criminals. It does make it somewhat easier to trace and follow, and thus to catch the criminals, as well as make any criminal who wants a gun have to try really hard to get one. Typically, most firearms used by criminals originate from organized crime; only about 6-8% of violent criminals use guns, and yet about 67% of homicides use guns. It's known that well over 80% of homicides are connected to organized crime and gangs, with estimates being much higher. They generally are responsible for most violent crime; but, if guns were available legally to every hooligan, with no background checks and all that, the crime might be all over the place instead of concentrated in the hands of weapons smugglers.

Also, I do like Obama. I've always said that I want an Obama - minus control + improved NASA - Bush tax cuts + Public option for Obamacare. That being said, he did end the bush tax cuts and has relented on NASA but there's still no moon mission and the fact he latched on to an assault weapon ban in his 2nd term is just bad form. xp

Beloved Lunatic

God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...

Fanatical Zealot

from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Beloved Lunatic

Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...

Fanatical Zealot

from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...


Well, I guess cartels or corporations could be next in power, if there was no government, seems like fun.

Or a new government could replace it without calling itself one and boss everyone around, eat their babies...

Beloved Lunatic

Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...


Well, I guess cartels or corporations could be next in power, if there was no government, seems like fun.

Or a new government could replace it without calling itself one and boss everyone around, eat their babies...

Wouldn't be any different...unless they really did eat babies. No one is doing that now, right?

Fanatical Zealot

from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...


Well, I guess cartels or corporations could be next in power, if there was no government, seems like fun.

Or a new government could replace it without calling itself one and boss everyone around, eat their babies...

Wouldn't be any different...unless they really did eat babies. No one is doing that now, right?


Except for like cartels and corporations who don't mind killing them and such.

Things would probably a lot different in a fractionalized dystopia in which corporations were the legitimate leaders and didn't have to work around elected officials and all that. If people did institute a new government, it would lead to the exact same problems so, nothing changed.

Beloved Lunatic

Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...


Well, I guess cartels or corporations could be next in power, if there was no government, seems like fun.

Or a new government could replace it without calling itself one and boss everyone around, eat their babies...

Wouldn't be any different...unless they really did eat babies. No one is doing that now, right?


Except for like cartels and corporations who don't mind killing them and such.

Things would probably a lot different in a fractionalized dystopia in which corporations were the legitimate leaders and didn't have to work around elected officials and all that. If people did institute a new government, it would lead to the exact same problems so, nothing changed.

Doesn't matter who's in charge; they have to maintain the illusion that they care about the people, or they'll be overthrown. At the least they have to keep a large number of soldiers happy to control dissidents. So sure it can get a bit worse, but it gets worse every few years anyway. And don't forget I didn't just say disarm the government, I also said arm the people. The idea here is to make it difficult for any one entity to control a large population.

Fanatical Zealot

from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...


Well, I guess cartels or corporations could be next in power, if there was no government, seems like fun.

Or a new government could replace it without calling itself one and boss everyone around, eat their babies...

Wouldn't be any different...unless they really did eat babies. No one is doing that now, right?


Except for like cartels and corporations who don't mind killing them and such.

Things would probably a lot different in a fractionalized dystopia in which corporations were the legitimate leaders and didn't have to work around elected officials and all that. If people did institute a new government, it would lead to the exact same problems so, nothing changed.

Doesn't matter who's in charge; they have to maintain the illusion that they care about the people, or they'll be overthrown. At the least they have to keep a large number of soldiers happy to control dissidents. So sure it can get a bit worse, but it gets worse every few years anyway. And don't forget I didn't just say disarm the government, I also said arm the people. The idea here is to make it difficult for any one entity to control a large population.


Becuase your average person can afford a billion dollar aircraft carrier over some large entity like a corporation or bill gates.

Evne if we arm "the people", it's made up of individual citizens; who's to say that whoever is in charge of the submarine or the tank or the aircraft carrier won't just use it for their own ends instead of to benefit "the people".


The problem with this mentality is that everyone is an individual; the same potential for corruption and ineptness will exist regardless who has the guns.

Giving a bunch of people rifles and expecting them to be able to fight off the bad guys who have tanks that are impervious to rifle fire is a little silly. If you give the people tanks, then you run the same risk you do now.


Hypothetically, we're in a democracy now, so we own the tanks.

The problem with any situation is that a bureaucracy will inevitably be created. "Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?"- the reality is that ultimately there is only one higher power. At some point, we have to put our faith into some seemingly altruistic organization or deal with the lesser of two evils. Right now things are pretty good even if our government is evil. We aren't in the illusion of goodness, we actually have good things, like running water and electricity. A lot of dictatorships don't.


Furthermore, even if everyone was armed, that doesn't mean they can fight.

Training, organization, and the lack of a need to support oneself go a long way in combat, well over just being an individual with a rifle. A nation of riflemen is not the same as a nation of soldiers. Thermal vision for instance is 15,000 dollars; owning the factory to produce this is not something 1 single individual can do. Stacking 1000 people together is not the same as 1000 people who work in unison. Thermal vision can make it so your enemy sees nothing while you can see everything you need; through smoke screens, at night, anything living shines really brightly. Your enemy is just fighting blind against you; no single individual could have come up with the technology, built the factory, if by no other virtue that the skill set and hands required are unavailable. Most people can't afford a 15,000 dollar+ thermal vision scope, and is does nothing to help get them more money to pay for it. However, a thermal scope does enhance the one trying to steal the money or oppress the population, I.E. as tools of the trade, and thus spending 100k isn't a problem. The Egyptians built the pyramids, but they couldn't build a single cellphone. Certain fundamental capabilities are unavailable without large groups. It's how a small group of soldiers or people can defeat a larger one, history is full of this, both on the good and bad side. Aluminum used to be more expensive than gold, so much so that Napoleon served his guests with aluminum silverware. Today, aluminum is cheaper than lead ton for ton. Smelting and large complex processes and factory have made this the case. Simply put, fundamental capabilities rest outside the capabilities of smaller organizations, regardless of how much work they put into it.
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Scarred Sword Heart
Arm regular citizens. Disarm cops!

How about arm people; disarm government?

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...

Umm... yeah actually. The reason we have government is for protection both against internal and external forces. When there is anarchy, the state either falls into violent mayhem or gets invaded by a country with a government.

Beloved Lunatic

God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...

Umm... yeah actually. The reason we have government is for protection both against internal and external forces. When there is anarchy, the state either falls into violent mayhem or gets invaded by a country with a government.

Protection? If there's anything I need protection from it's the government. They force me to associate with them just for being born here. They take from my earnings by coercion. Then they use that money for their own interests which tend to involve getting themselves and their friends rich, telling me what I can and can't do, starting fights all over the globe. The government is a gang with a flag. I'll take anarchy which, by the way, does not guarantee violence or weakness. People left to their own can freely associate to work toward common goals like defense and security.

Fanatical Zealot

from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...

Umm... yeah actually. The reason we have government is for protection both against internal and external forces. When there is anarchy, the state either falls into violent mayhem or gets invaded by a country with a government.

Protection? If there's anything I need protection from it's the government. They force me to associate with them just for being born here. They take from my earnings by coercion. Then they use that money for their own interests which tend to involve getting themselves and their friends rich, telling me what I can and can't do, starting fights all over the globe. The government is a gang with a flag. I'll take anarchy which, by the way, does not guarantee violence or weakness. People left to their own can freely associate to work toward common goals like defense and security.


Except for all the people who would challenge it.

I mean what, you're basically saying you'd make a new government, which has all the same potential to end up where we are now. xp


Plus you can always leave. xp
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur
from blue to
Suicidesoldier#1
from blue to
God Emperor Baldur

Then you completely defeat the purpose of a government.

Yeah...


Which is... which is bad. xp

Nah...

Umm... yeah actually. The reason we have government is for protection both against internal and external forces. When there is anarchy, the state either falls into violent mayhem or gets invaded by a country with a government.

Protection? If there's anything I need protection from it's the government. They force me to associate with them just for being born here. They take from my earnings by coercion. Then they use that money for their own interests which tend to involve getting themselves and their friends rich, telling me what I can and can't do, starting fights all over the globe. The government is a gang with a flag. I'll take anarchy which, by the way, does not guarantee violence or weakness. People left to their own can freely associate to work toward common goals like defense and security.

Then move to Somalia. I assure you there would be no government interference.
Suicidesoldier#1

We can't know how to fight the problem unless we know what it is; we now know that most of it comes from smuggling.


You keep changing your tune. First, there's a problem with WHO gets guns. Then, there's a problem with WHERE they get guns. Now, it's a problem with HOW they get guns. So what is the real root problem here? I'm not seeing it.

Every anti-gun bill on the books is about punishing law abiding citizens for the actions of criminals. I can't own an AR-15 or an M1A or purchase mags over 10 rounds in my state because our d**k head of a governor decided that all of these things are linked to "deadly assault weapons." He punished citizens for the actions of criminals. That's wrong. You know it, I know it, everyone with a brain knows it.

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