God vs. Atheism

[HelloNoora]

Quote:

Ok, I can agree with that. And what about the sheeple? It's not their fault they're sheeple. How do these people come to "choose God"? Again, it's beyond their control.

No, it is not their fault that many if not most people are followers. Jesus said three times before founding His Church with Peter at the helm: "Peter, do you love me?" "Then feed my sheep." He repeated this to Peter to make it clear that the followers/disciples were to be administered to as a good shepherd tends his flock. Shepherds don't kick out sheep they don't like or ones that are different or "bad."

[HelloNoora]

Quote:

So as someone unwilling to become Christian... all I have to do is have a seizure vision? Again, whether or not I have a siezure, much less a god-sent vision, is beyond my control, and therefore I cannot choose to become a Christian.

I concur that not wanting to will prevent you, that is true. I am off to bed now. I have enjoyed talking to you this evening. Good night. See you another day, perhaps. cool

[I got bored one day]

Herald of Lies

Death and Misery

Herald of Lies

Death and Misery

Herald of Lies

Death and Misery

We must not alleviate the question through ignorance. Let us attempt to reason through it, and if we cannot let us call god unfair rather than blindly accept judgment.

You mean reason through idea of how it could possibly be fair? I wouldn't see how my failure would prove anything, only my own inability so why would we then call God unfair? That is, assuming I read what you meant correctly.

I think so. The problem here lies in instead of seeking to know this deity and his nature we are spacing ourselves from it, giving it power without reason, if we make no effort. Your failure is dangerous here, and it always will be in any and all philosophies you encounter; then again maybe I'm just idealistic or crazy. You choose.

Well there's various possibilities I can think of for why it might be fair, though I wouldn't know how good they are since I rarely mention them.

Mostly I'm inclined to consider the possibility that we're as to a diety as flowers are to a gardner. It's not really unfair to the flowers if the gardener feels like tearing them up or being 'nicer' to some of them, but not others because they're just flowers. It's the gardener's right to do what he pleases with them.

That is a fair assertion. I prefer thinking of it as a means of preventing betrayal, a screening process, so that those who openly oppose do not enter into the House. After all dining with the enemy is not the best option if you can avoid it, no?

I actually like yours more.

I've considered that one too though it didn't come to mind immediately.

I think some people also ask why would someone want to be in Heaven when they hate God. I think those tend to be the people who say Hell is just a seperation from God and not a fiery place of eternal torment. I don't think such an explanation would really make too much sense without that belief since being in the presence of one you hate seems better than torment even if you don't realize it at first.

Fear more than likely. All it takes is a drop to make even the most militant turn 180 on their ideals.

Bedtime. Take good care of yourself.

[Herald of Lies]

Death and Misery

Herald of Lies

Death and Misery

Herald of Lies

Death and Misery

I think so. The problem here lies in instead of seeking to know this deity and his nature we are spacing ourselves from it, giving it power without reason, if we make no effort. Your failure is dangerous here, and it always will be in any and all philosophies you encounter; then again maybe I'm just idealistic or crazy. You choose.

Well there's various possibilities I can think of for why it might be fair, though I wouldn't know how good they are since I rarely mention them.

Mostly I'm inclined to consider the possibility that we're as to a diety as flowers are to a gardner. It's not really unfair to the flowers if the gardener feels like tearing them up or being 'nicer' to some of them, but not others because they're just flowers. It's the gardener's right to do what he pleases with them.

That is a fair assertion. I prefer thinking of it as a means of preventing betrayal, a screening process, so that those who openly oppose do not enter into the House. After all dining with the enemy is not the best option if you can avoid it, no?

I actually like yours more.

I've considered that one too though it didn't come to mind immediately.

I think some people also ask why would someone want to be in Heaven when they hate God. I think those tend to be the people who say Hell is just a seperation from God and not a fiery place of eternal torment. I don't think such an explanation would really make too much sense without that belief since being in the presence of one you hate seems better than torment even if you don't realize it at first.

Fear more than likely. All it takes is a drop to make even the most militant turn 180 on their ideals.

Bedtime. Take good care of yourself.

Night then and you too.

And here's a question for later if you come back to this thread tomorrow:
You mean fear would be why people would believe it is not a place of eternal fiery torment?

[Spiltz]

HelloNoora

Quote:

What do you mean "reject" god? Do you mean die an atheist, like I probably will? Or do you mean after you die, standing at the gates of heaven and staring God in the face and still failing to believe in god? Any soul that would stare god in the face and still think there's no god probably has some seriously messed of deduction skills, and I don't think God would send someone to hell for that. Can you give me any situation where god would send someone to hell without God being a total d**k by Christian moral standards (i.e. love thy neighbor as thyself, etc)? Or do you mean something else by "reject"? It's a pretty vague term. Maybe you mean taste God and spit him out because he tastes bad?

I thought we had already cleared this up. By "reject" God, please read: reject love and goodness;forgiveness. You may die an atheist but that does not prevent God from giving you a supernatural nudge. To "go to hell" you have to go there by yourself. God doesn't send you there like a big time out. You go because your hate is stronger than your love. Your preference for evil and vengeance are greater than your forgivenss and love of what is good.

Evil people don't reject love, goodness, and forgiveness. They demand these things in unreasonable amounts. Their "evilness" is their failure to give love, goodness, and forgiveness, not their failure to accept it. When has their ever been a human that declined receiving love, goodness, and forgiveness? Actually, come to think of it... that kind of describes a rape victim. How they can't accept anyone loving them, how they still feel guilty even though nobody blames them. Sounds to me like, quote: "reject(ing) love and goodness;forgiveness". So it sounds to me like the emotionally unstable go to hell while the evil-doers go to heaven. Please explain.

[Herald of Lies]

Spiltz

HelloNoora

Quote:

What do you mean "reject" god? Do you mean die an atheist, like I probably will? Or do you mean after you die, standing at the gates of heaven and staring God in the face and still failing to believe in god? Any soul that would stare god in the face and still think there's no god probably has some seriously messed of deduction skills, and I don't think God would send someone to hell for that. Can you give me any situation where god would send someone to hell without God being a total d**k by Christian moral standards (i.e. love thy neighbor as thyself, etc)? Or do you mean something else by "reject"? It's a pretty vague term. Maybe you mean taste God and spit him out because he tastes bad?

I thought we had already cleared this up. By "reject" God, please read: reject love and goodness;forgiveness. You may die an atheist but that does not prevent God from giving you a supernatural nudge. To "go to hell" you have to go there by yourself. God doesn't send you there like a big time out. You go because your hate is stronger than your love. Your preference for evil and vengeance are greater than your forgivenss and love of what is good.

Evil people don't reject love, goodness, and forgiveness. They demand these things in unreasonable amounts. Their "evilness" is their failure to give love, goodness, and forgiveness, not their failure to accept it. When has their ever been a human that declined receiving love, goodness, and forgiveness? Actually, come to think of it... that kind of describes a rape victim. How they can't accept anyone loving them, how they still feel guilty even though nobody blames them. Sounds to me like, quote: "reject(ing) love and goodness;forgiveness". So it sounds to me like the emotionally unstable go to hell while the evil-doers go to heaven. Please explain.

I think pride might be a reason to reject forgiveness at the least. A refusal to admit one's errors and that they need forgiving.

[Spiltz]

Herald of Lies

Spiltz

HelloNoora

Quote:

What do you mean "reject" god? Do you mean die an atheist, like I probably will? Or do you mean after you die, standing at the gates of heaven and staring God in the face and still failing to believe in god? Any soul that would stare god in the face and still think there's no god probably has some seriously messed of deduction skills, and I don't think God would send someone to hell for that. Can you give me any situation where god would send someone to hell without God being a total d**k by Christian moral standards (i.e. love thy neighbor as thyself, etc)? Or do you mean something else by "reject"? It's a pretty vague term. Maybe you mean taste God and spit him out because he tastes bad?

I thought we had already cleared this up. By "reject" God, please read: reject love and goodness;forgiveness. You may die an atheist but that does not prevent God from giving you a supernatural nudge. To "go to hell" you have to go there by yourself. God doesn't send you there like a big time out. You go because your hate is stronger than your love. Your preference for evil and vengeance are greater than your forgivenss and love of what is good.

Evil people don't reject love, goodness, and forgiveness. They demand these things in unreasonable amounts. Their "evilness" is their failure to give love, goodness, and forgiveness, not their failure to accept it. When has their ever been a human that declined receiving love, goodness, and forgiveness? Actually, come to think of it... that kind of describes a rape victim. How they can't accept anyone loving them, how they still feel guilty even though nobody blames them. Sounds to me like, quote: "reject(ing) love and goodness;forgiveness". So it sounds to me like the emotionally unstable go to hell while the evil-doers go to heaven. Please explain.

I think pride might be a reason to reject forgiveness at the least. A refusal to admit one's errors and that they need forgiving.

Yeah. But still... eternal hell?

Goodnight noora.

I'm going to bed too. Goodnight all.