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I personally believe that gays should have the right to marry. However, I am also a Christian.

I do not believe that Leviticus holds substantial evidence that being gay is a sin. However, just because Christians still eat shellfish doesn’t mean that everything else in the Bible is a lie.

I’m afraid I have to resort to an anecdote here. During the Prop 8 days, and for a long time afterwards, I was angry. I was angry because my gay friends weren’t getting their rights. I was angry that my parents had voted Yes on 8. But then I was angry that the gay community put together a black list of people who had supported Yes on 8. Then I was angry when Scott Eckern stepped down from his position as Artistic Director of Music Circus because of this harassment. I was angry as I read Susan Egan’s frankly juvenile chain letter “outing” Scott; imagine how much angrier I was when she issued her "apology" later. I was angry at Marc Shaiman, who claimed that Scott had been “making money” off of him, as if Mr. Shaiman had never received any benefit in return. I was angry because suddenly my gay friends were angry at Christians, and somehow I was an exception to this, but I didn’t want to be. I was angry that they assumed that I was somehow different even though I was reading the same Bible as everyone else. I didn’t know what to say when they started ranting about how much they hated the Christian community. They could hate Christians, but Christians couldn’t hate gays? I was angry at the double standards, I was angry because I didn’t know how to argue with them, and I was angry because I had worked so hard to support them despite my parents and my beliefs, and now they weren’t interested in supporting, or even tolerating, me and my beliefs.

And people say gays have no voice?

Over the summer I got thinking about it all again, so I sat down with my dad, who is a pastor, and I just asked, “What’s the evidence here?”

We reviewed Leviticus, and agreed that the whole book is no longer relevant. Leviticus was written to guide people living in the desert with no adequate medical care, little water, little hygiene, and no condoms; avoiding sex in general, and in that way avoiding STDS, was outlined as a no-brainer for those situations. We reviewed Jesus’ life, which had no mention of the gay community at all. And then we moved on to Peter and the Epistles.

In his letters, Peter explained that gay relationships were legal in the eyes of the law, he didn’t want to bother arguing about that because the law is not what is important. However, he said that this lifestyle was a pursuit of desires of the flesh, and carries repercussions in the flesh. Consider the lack of condoms and hygiene; sex without the objective of procreation was just another way to get sick. And then he said that he believed anyone who has found God and has Him in their heart doesn’t need to pursue those kinds of relationships. It becomes unnecessary, comparable to the pursuit of wealth or beauty. It’s just a distraction.

That, I believe, is the argument the Bible presents against homosexuality. (Notice the lack of political clout. Of course Christians have to revert to Leviticus; "BECAUSE PETER SAID SO" isn't much of a campaign slogan.)

Unfortunately, the opposition likes to lampoon the Leviticus argument with the whole shellfish thing, which is a sound argument for that one book, but does not address the issue at large. The Bible talks about homosexuality in other ways, and those ways are not positive. Christianity does not support homosexuality. Deal with it.

However, in the United States we have the right to vote as we believe. Gays argue that they are being prohibited from their rights. I agree. However, it would be considered a sin for a Christian to vote in support of gay marriage. That is why their vote will not turn, and that is okay, it does not mean they are terrible, hateful people. The gay community's lack of acknowledgement of this fact shows them to be equally intolerant as the Christian community.

This is why these rights cannot be put to a vote. It is against the rights of gays to deny them marriage and other rights, and it is against the rights of Christians to blacklist, intimidate, and accuse them of hatred for loving God and adhering to their beliefs. It’s a lose-lose situation we’ve set up here. How are we ever going to work past these differences and end the hatred and rivalry if we make this issue a contest of majority? Majority vote cannot apply here.

I want this issue to be solved. I want to be friends with my friends again.

Thank you. I've been wanting to say that for a long time.
 
     
 
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EmotionallyInconsistent
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I hope so. I don't see people talking about anything besides Leviticus...it gets so frustrating.
     
MadHatter_MovingOn_
EmotionallyInconsistent
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I hope so. I don't see people talking about anything besides Leviticus...it gets so frustrating.


You know what's even more frustrating? Your lack of understanding of the context in regards to Leviticus.
 
     
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EmotionallyInconsistent
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Since you reference Prop 8 I assume that you live in CA. As such I ask your opinions on CA Family Code 297.5

As to the issue shouldn't be put to a vote I must disagree. We are a country based on the majority rule, minority representation. The minority is heard, as you've so clearly exhibited, but if situations are not put forward with the majority interest, then we are ruled by minority interests.

I don't need to say that a minority running the show is a bad thing.

Note: when I say minority and majority I'm referring to opinions, not racial, religious or any other category.
 
     
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MadHatter_MovingOn_
They could hate Christians, but Christians couldn’t hate gays? I was angry at the double standards,

[Most] Gay people don't hate Christians for no reason. They hate them because Christians essentially hate them for no reason. As such, said Christians feel the need to put their noses into gay people's lives. How is two women or two men getting married hurting Christians? In any way? Gay marriage and the like shouldn't be voted on, you're right; because they shouldn't have to be voted on. There shouldn't be a distinction between gay and heterosexual rights, because they should be exactly the same.
     
MadHatter_MovingOn_

This is why these rights cannot be put to a vote. It is against the rights of gays to deny them marriage and other rights, and it is against the rights of Christians to blacklist, intimidate, and accuse them of hatred for loving God and adhering to their beliefs.


I'm sorry, but if their beliefs are "God wants you to hate this," then I fail to see how accusing them of something they are actually doing is "against their rights."
 
     
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People seem to for get the book of Ruth, where that lovely line "Till death do us part" was said from a woman to a woman.. Maybe that should take that line out of the whole traditional wedding ceremony.
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MadHatter_MovingOn_

This is why these rights cannot be put to a vote. It is against the rights of gays to deny them marriage and other rights, and it is against the rights of Christians to blacklist, intimidate, and accuse them of hatred for loving God and adhering to their beliefs.


I'm sorry, but if their beliefs are "God wants you to hate this," then I fail to see how accusing them of something they are actually doing is "against their rights."
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought God wants us to pick Love over Hate.
     
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People being against gay marriage is completely ridiculous. If you judge people for being gay, how are you any better than you think they are, hm?

This, my friend, is unrequired. There's really no point in pointing something out that shouldn't be any kind of problem if people have any sense of morals.
 
     
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Quote:
However, it would be considered a sin for a Christian to vote in support of gay marriage. That is why their vote will not turn, and that is okay, it does not mean they are terrible, hateful people. The gay community's lack of acknowledgment of this fact shows them to be equally intolerant as the Christian community.


It would not be considered a sin for the Christians to just not vote.
     




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Quote:
However, it would be considered a sin for a Christian to vote in support of gay marriage. That is why their vote will not turn, and that is okay, it does not mean they are terrible, hateful people. The gay community's lack of acknowledgment of this fact shows them to be equally intolerant as the Christian community.


It would not be considered a sin for the Christians to just not vote.


Actually, it kind of would. Any form of support would, even if it was just sitting back and letting things happen.
 
     
 
Kaosgirl
MadHatter_MovingOn_

This is why these rights cannot be put to a vote. It is against the rights of gays to deny them marriage and other rights, and it is against the rights of Christians to blacklist, intimidate, and accuse them of hatred for loving God and adhering to their beliefs.


I'm sorry, but if their beliefs are "God wants you to hate this," then I fail to see how accusing them of something they are actually doing is "against their rights."


God doesn't want anyone to hate anyone else. There's a whole "love the sinner, hate the sin" component. I'm saying that it's unfair that these two groups have been set up against each other because the thing they are arguing about is fundamental to their beliefs. It's not about who is more "open-minded" or who is a nicer person or whatever. It's an abuse to both sides to force them to butt heads.
     
Inferno Someras
People being against gay marriage is completely ridiculous. If you judge people for being gay, how are you any better than you think they are, hm?

This, my friend, is unrequired. There's really no point in pointing something out that shouldn't be any kind of problem if people have any sense of morals.


It's not about anyone trying to prove that they are "better" than anyone else, or at least it shouldn't be. Christianity is about people trying to be their best and love, and avoid sin. Christians believe that gay marriage is sinful, and damaging to the soul. That is just their belief. People like to make fun of Christianity as some kind of cult based on fiction, but to Christians their spirituality is just as important to themselves as human rights are to the gay community.

Christians judge gays for wanting the right to marriage. Gays judge Christians for valuing their immortal souls over human rights. Both sides probably look equally ridiculous to one another.
 
     
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