GamerGate, Feminism, and the true face of Hate.

[Rowl Banning]

SirPuzzle

Wow, what kind of game merits that kind of dedication?

People have a sort of learned helplessness towards the more important issues, I would think. Especially the ones they actually can't do anything about. I think it's easier for people to attack games journalists because these people represent themselves as being normal people, as being part of the community. It's way easier to call out someone in your community.

But I do think instead of complaining or adhomming, people should respond with, y'know, positive things like... hey, these assholes are co-opting feminism. Let's push for actual equality. Or hey, these assholes aren't acting ethically when they're sworn to. Let's push for an apology. Many of the people on the attack admit basic common ground (like being against unethical journalism or again inequality) and then proceed to b***h and slander. Pointless.

[sitting cow]

Yoshpet

sitting cow

so now you're admitting you have no idea what you're talking about? gotcha

Oh, you got me. I know nothing about this situation. That's why I've been posting about it in-depth for pages on multiple threads.

But hey, I heard it was about misogyny. No one ever jokes about misogyny, so it's probably just about misogyny. Feminism! neutral

you haven't said anything in depth. you're just stirring the pot and pretending to sound like you know what you're talking about.

[Yoshpet]

sitting cow

you haven't said anything in depth. you're just stirring the pot and pretending to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Lol the irony...

Are we done here?

[sitting cow]

Yoshpet

sitting cow

you haven't said anything in depth. you're just stirring the pot and pretending to sound like you know what you're talking about.

Lol the irony...

Are we done here?

how is that ironic. that is all you are doing. whereas i have stated that i was on 4chan where this whole mess started and saw the threads and the plans to call "gamergate" etc.

you are saying that a few threats made by trolls on 4chan don't represent gamergate. but that is how the entire thing started.

[Yoshpet]

sitting cow

how is that ironic. that is all you are doing. whereas i have stated that i was on 4chan where this whole mess started and saw the threads and the plans to call "gamergate" etc.

you are saying that a few threats made by trolls on 4chan don't represent gamergate. but that is how the entire thing started.

Yeah, we've all heard the stories about how GG was astroturfed by 4Chan trolls, we've all seen the IRC logs, yada yada. Since Adam Baldwin was the first to use the hashtag the 4chan conspirators came up with, does that mean he's their Head Magus?

What's not explained is how the existence of GamerGate with its legitimate complaints actually serves to facilitate covert misogyny. Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG. GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions, and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for. It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls. Feminists get victimized, gamers get blamed, spectators eat it up like idiots, and the trolls still get to dox and harass with impunity.

So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

[sitting cow]

Yoshpet

sitting cow

how is that ironic. that is all you are doing. whereas i have stated that i was on 4chan where this whole mess started and saw the threads and the plans to call "gamergate" etc.

you are saying that a few threats made by trolls on 4chan don't represent gamergate. but that is how the entire thing started.

Yeah, we've all heard the stories about how GG was astroturfed by 4Chan trolls, we've all seen the IRC logs, yada yada. Since Adam Baldwin was the first to use the hashtag the 4chan conspirators came up with, does that mean he's their Head Magus?

What's not explained is how the existence of GamerGate with its legitimate complaints actually serves to facilitate covert misogyny. Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG. GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions, and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for. It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls. Feminists get victimized, gamers get blamed, spectators eat it up like idiots, and the trolls still get to dox and harass with impunity.

So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

>with its legitimate complaints

what legitimate complaints. and were those made before or after the threats on 4chan.

>Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG.

i never said they couldn't. what's your point here?

>GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions

well actually it does

> and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for.

okay so was it a real movement or not then? and first you say gg can't possibly redirect or mollify people's anger at harassment, now you say they were duped. eating your own words much?

>It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls.

or maybe gamergate did that to itself. and also, only some people are "blaming gamers". not everyone who is "against" gamergate.

>spectators eat it up like idiots

no that's mostly just you smile

>So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

the 'handful of trolls' was actually a massive amount. not to mention all the other people (there's been at least 3 others on this forum, which is a lot considering like, 20 people post here total and maybe only 10 people have posted in the threads on gg) including yourself, who have been shown what gamergate was about to begin with and still continue to argue that it didn't start out that way and there was no trolling or sexism at all.

the trolling is a part of the "movement" whether you accept it or not. i don't even know why you feel such a need to defend this "movement" tbh. i think i view anyone who tries to deny that any trolling took place so hard, especially after being shown other evidence, is a troll themselves.

[X of Castigation]

Being outraged over ethics in games journalism is like being outraged over ethics in tabloid journalism, only games journalism is even less relevant.

[GSK Lives]

The Herald of Death

Gunzstray

If you think about it. GamerGate is about fighting against corruption in the (game)journalism.

Do explain calls for getting game companies to remove review copies from sites they don't like if they're against corruption in game journalism.

Because game companies having influence over reviewers and using it is kind of an actual problem of corruption.

I find it a bit ironic how they're suddenly trusting game companies, which have rightly been the subject of scorn, to act as their terrible swift sword against game journos.

[sitting cow]

ghosts11nin

sitting cow

Yoshpet

sitting cow

how is that ironic. that is all you are doing. whereas i have stated that i was on 4chan where this whole mess started and saw the threads and the plans to call "gamergate" etc.

you are saying that a few threats made by trolls on 4chan don't represent gamergate. but that is how the entire thing started.

Yeah, we've all heard the stories about how GG was astroturfed by 4Chan trolls, we've all seen the IRC logs, yada yada. Since Adam Baldwin was the first to use the hashtag the 4chan conspirators came up with, does that mean he's their Head Magus?

What's not explained is how the existence of GamerGate with its legitimate complaints actually serves to facilitate covert misogyny. Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG. GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions, and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for. It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls. Feminists get victimized, gamers get blamed, spectators eat it up like idiots, and the trolls still get to dox and harass with impunity.

So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

>with its legitimate complaints

what legitimate complaints. and were those made before or after the threats on 4chan.

>Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG.

i never said they couldn't. what's your point here?

>GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions

well actually it does

> and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for.

okay so was it a real movement or not then? and first you say gg can't possibly redirect or mollify people's anger at harassment, now you say they were duped. eating your own words much?

>It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls.

or maybe gamergate did that to itself. and also, only some people are "blaming gamers". not everyone who is "against" gamergate.

>spectators eat it up like idiots

no that's mostly just you smile

>So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

the 'handful of trolls' was actually a massive amount. not to mention all the other people (there's been at least 3 others on this forum, which is a lot considering like, 20 people post here total and maybe only 10 people have posted in the threads on gg) including yourself, who have been shown what gamergate was about to begin with and still continue to argue that it didn't start out that way and there was no trolling or sexism at all.

the trolling is a part of the "movement" whether you accept it or not. i don't even know why you feel such a need to defend this "movement" tbh. i think i view anyone who tries to deny that any trolling took place so hard, especially after being shown other evidence, is a troll themselves.

QUOTED FOR TEH TRUTHINESS

oh thanks. you don't really have to do that. but thanks anyways. i think.

[sitting cow]

Senator Armstrong

Being outraged over ethics in games journalism is like being outraged over ethics in tabloid journalism, only games journalism is even less relevant.

lol my thoughts exactly but then again i was searching for a game to play last month and resorted to reading some reviews

but i've never done that in ...my whole life...

i don't game much and all the other times when i played either the sims or farmville or whatever i started playing b/c of word of mouth not reviews

(farmville gets terrible reviews but it's really quite fun in that it has a ******** of cute items to pick from)

okay i'm rambling

[Yoshpet]

sitting cow

>with its legitimate complaints

what legitimate complaints. and were those made before or after the threats on 4chan.

>Anonymous internet trolls can still dox and harass feminists and women without GG.

i never said they couldn't. what's your point here?

>GG does not mollify people's anger at the harassment, redirect it, or anything that would help cover up these actions

well actually it does

> and the majority of GG's members that were apparently duped into thinking it was a real movement openly oppose and track down the harassers they're supposed to be covering for.

okay so was it a real movement or not then? and first you say gg can't possibly redirect or mollify people's anger at harassment, now you say they were duped. eating your own words much?

>It actually acts like a lightning rod, causing people to stereotype and blame gamers instead of a handful of hostile trolls.

or maybe gamergate did that to itself. and also, only some people are "blaming gamers". not everyone who is "against" gamergate.

>spectators eat it up like idiots

no that's mostly just you smile

>So, uh, where was the massive pro-misogyny movement in all of that again?

the 'handful of trolls' was actually a massive amount. not to mention all the other people (there's been at least 3 others on this forum, which is a lot considering like, 20 people post here total and maybe only 10 people have posted in the threads on gg) including yourself, who have been shown what gamergate was about to begin with and still continue to argue that it didn't start out that way and there was no trolling or sexism at all.

the trolling is a part of the "movement" whether you accept it or not. i don't even know why you feel such a need to defend this "movement" tbh. i think i view anyone who tries to deny that any trolling took place so hard, especially after being shown other evidence, is a troll themselves.

Denial, ad hominem, strawman, and lies? That's all you've got for me? Why did I bother writing that all out...?

You go ahead and get back to me with some evidence there was a "massive" amount of trolls, and explain why they should be associated with the Gamergaters who denounce them and report them for said trolling, and I'll just overlook the fact that you claimed I denied anyone was trolling when I specifically mentioned them doing so in the post you quoted and responded to piecemeal.

[The Herald of Death]

GSK Lives

The Herald of Death

Gunzstray

If you think about it. GamerGate is about fighting against corruption in the (game)journalism.

Do explain calls for getting game companies to remove review copies from sites they don't like if they're against corruption in game journalism.

Because game companies having influence over reviewers and using it is kind of an actual problem of corruption.

I find it a bit ironic how they're suddenly trusting game companies, which have rightly been the subject of scorn, to act as their terrible swift sword against game journos.

I think the logic is they're consumers so of course the companies will HAVE to listen to them and will totally cater to their every whim rolleyes

[I AM R U]

Yoshpet

I AM R U

Yoshpet

I think it's pretty pathetic how feminists are trying to position themselves against gaming as a hobby and twist the issue into "keeping women out of gaming". Women are already involved in gaming, both as consumers and developers. The women being harassed are not being harassed to keep women out of gaming. By and large we don't know who or why they're being harassed. Covert attacks by gamers, feminists victimizing themselves, or 4Chan trolls stirring up s**t for the lulz? Nobody knows, but everyone reads whatever their agenda is into the situation as if it were implicit in the actions. It is not.

The outspoken majority of GG is not opposed to women, or women in gaming, or even feminism. So uh... give it up?

Civil rights is not feminism versus the world. Such an obnoxious trend.

Yosh, I know women who have been harassed and threatened for being nothing more females in the games industry :/ A friend of mine was recently threatened with being doxxed because she's a female games dev - she hasn't spoken publicly about this issue, the whole gamergate thing, but she got targeted anyway - because she belongs to a women in gaming group, made up of professional female game developers and programmers.

There is an issue of journalistic integrity in gaming - most people in the industry admit that, and it isn't limited to indie games, not even by any stretch of the imagination. Yet why is the gamergate thing mostly targeted at indie games? And why is it mostly targeting women and the men who support them? Its a minority yes, but a shrill and increasingly influential one, and for many of them the aim is to keep people they perceive as the enemy from changing or influencing their gaming expectations and experiences.

That's the thing though, I'm not convinced the people doing the harassment actually represent GamerGate so much as they're taking advantage of the situation. There's no evidence to suggest harassment is the real goal of GG, and that GamerGate reps are getting doxxed too suggests there might be a third party simply fanning the flames. Either that or the irate feminists are playing dirty too, abandoning any moral high ground they might have had.

GG supporters have no more an obligation to abandon their name or movement because of extremists (whom they openly denounce) than feminism should have to abandon its identity because of the crazies among them.

There arguments from the more reasonable Gamergate supporters, and I think they're serious ones, such as the concern about games journalism and the close relationships between game devs and journalists. But there's this massive fear around Gamergate - even with those valid issues, its not a movement associated with a just cause, it's associated with fear. Its like being concerned about high drug rates among Africa-American communities, so joining the KKK. I'm going to quote this article because it says what I think much more eloquently than I can express it - any attempt to put it into my own words ends up as plagiarism, so I'm just going to quote dump.

Quote:

People are terrified - they've read the forums, where hateful sexist and transphobic slurs are tossed around like it's nothing, where women targets are given code names and insane conspiracy theories and militaristic jargon sit side by side with voices impotently urging for calm. They've seen the Twitter reply-feeds of the women (and men) who speak out against Gamergate

- I've witnessed this myself happen to my friends, my partner's co-workers, both males and females. Saying anything results in 100s of messages of abuse, threats (some just obscene in their lurid detail) and threats to "dox" them - all for saying "hmmm, maybe you shouldn't threaten people". Its gotten to the point where people are choosing not to talk about it - where its easier that way, safer that way, because you don't want to jeopardize your safety, mental and physical health, or job. I know people, not a few, who work in the games industry or just have always played games, who no longer use the term "gamer" to describe themselves - they call the label toxic, now.

Quote:

Gamergate has become defined by fear, and that fear is not going away, because no one has the power to make it go away. Gamergate may have a logo and a mascot, but it has no leader, and as a result its many supporters can remain unaccountable for any actions they deem the work of fringe extremists. The movement's moderates can repeatedly disavow harassment—as some did in the aftermath of Day's doxxing—and chide those who go too far for hurting the cause. Yet it is difficult to submerge oneself in the anger and hate-speech coursing through so many GG forums and online discussions without feeling like it is an unseverable element of the movement.

- I feel Gamergate is only comparable to feminism if you look to the radfem movement, which has its own identity and even label within feminism, and is routinely rejected as extreme, unnecessary, and violent. Yet even they don't seem to go the lengths current Gamergate supporters are going to, in organising well orchestrated online attacks that leave people too terrified to live in their own houses, too terrified to fight back, let along speak out against them...