Feminists should get an abortion or never collect public aid

How should we handle reproductive decisions?

Women should be responsible for their own reproductive choices, but get full control over them	76.8%	[ 43 ]
Everyone should be responsible for children, but women's bodies become a public issue and no longer a private one	3.6%	[ 2 ]
Women should be the ruling class by making all of the decisions while everyone else has to handle the consequences of those decisions	19.6%	[ 11 ]
Total Votes:			[ 56 ]

[Roih Uvet]

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

Remember how, for years, feminists have insisted on a pro-choice policy when it comes to abortion? "My body, my choice" is a phrase used for decades to illustrate their point of view. What they fail to address is the reality that the consequences of this decision, to abort or to not abort, has consequences for everyone else, especially if we have all these entitlements programs like WIC, food stamps, TANF, public school, and so on, all there supporting single mothers all the way through the first two decades of this child's life.

Sounds to me like you're pro-abortion there Macai. It sounds like you want every pregnancy to be terminated. You're going to have to prove that every single mother gets public assistance.

Not once did I say that I want all pregnancies to be terminated.

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

It's almost like their actual position is "my body, my choice, your problem," and simply put, ******** that noise outright. Literally the moment I am held even partially accountable for someone else's choices or their consequences, even indirectly as in through taxes, compulsory insurance premiums, etc., is the moment that I have every right to meddle in their affairs.

So does that mean I can decide whether or not senior citizens can have my hard earned money, or the government itself, since we pay their paychecks and they're ******** us six ways to Sunday? or how about the military? Should I be able to meddle in the military and dictate to them where they can send soldiers, how much they're allowed to pay them, or even if they're allowed to increase the number of military personnel?

Yes. You can and should vote on those matters if you care about them, because you pay taxes. (Even indirectly, through rent, you pay taxes)

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

My entire adult life, I've paid taxes to this single mother industrial complex.

Source for this?

What, you want me to get my tax returns out for the past decade or so? razz

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

This reality has given me a place telling women what to do with their bodies, since I am partially responsible for the choices that they make. And what do women need to do? Get an abortion.

No, it doesn't. You see, you seem to think that once you give something away you still have some control over it. You and BWA must really get along since he has the same delusion. once you give the government money, via taxes, it is no longer yours and you no longer have any say in how its spent.

Yes I do. It's called voting. Even half-assed democratic societies like our own have this feature. And that's only one form of recourse I have. If voting doesn't work, I have all kinds of things I can do to ******** with this system, like:
* Tax evasion,
* Fall off the grid,
* Play the welfare game (it's not easy but you can totally work this system--I know people that do personally),
* Direct action (a bit extreme, but hey)

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

If you can't afford a baby, you need to get an abortion.

While I agree that the woman should seriously consider this if she is unable to provide for it, see above if you think you have some delusional right to dictate what she does or doesn't do.

Actually, we all have that right. In fact, we call this "society." You know those laws on the books saying I can't murder, steal from, or rape you? Hell, there are tons of victimelss crimes on the books as well, and they get routinely enforced. See drug laws. See pornography bans. See licensing requirements laws, like medical or legal licenses. See healthcare laws that require me to buy a service.

If you honestly think society dictates people's decisions right up until your uterus is involved, you're the one that's deluded, not me.

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

I think the government should fund them, outright, because it's cheaper than having to fund your retard baby.

Oh, so now not only are you anti-birth in all cases, you're a bigot against those who are mentally handicapped?

It just so happens that we have a surplus of retard babies. I think we can cope with not having any more.

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

Exceptions should be made for exceptionally intelligent parents (130 IQ or higher) and women that don't need the government to support them for the next two decades after giving birth to a child.

Again you need to prove that every single mother gets aid. You also need to prove that the aid is ongoing for 20 years. You also need to address the fact that the US does not pay a living wage, which leads to even families with TWO working parents having to rely on food stamps and other forms of government assistance to provide for their families.

No, I don't need to prove that every single mother gets aid, because my argument does not hinge on every mother getting aid.

As for the non-living wage, I actually do feel very strongly about that and think we should implement a technocracy over it. The market clearly hasn't worked for your average person, of either sex.

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

I don't want the government to create handout programs, but to create public works/infrastructure projects that pay well and keep the general population employed, busy, and useful. And sorry to say, but giving birth is not a huge contribution to society; if anything, it's a ******** burden. So your abortion should be compulsory.

you do realize how ignorant the bold is, right? Where, pray tell, do you think the money that YOU will get when you're old enough to retire and collect social security will be coming from? If there are fewer people in the younger generations, a lot of elderly will starve to death. So not only are you a classist but an ageist as well. Good job Macai.

I likely won't get Social Security at all because it will probably be insolvent.

[Roih Uvet]

Mistress Lithia

you do realize those types of positions often require either a) a college degree or b) muscle mass/body strength, to handle the heavy lifting that goes with construction, right? And that the majority of women are not built for that, right? And if you're already poor, college is not a viable option.

Yes, I am aware of that.

I hope you're aware that I support massive government financing of those children that already exist in the form of a number of things that would include college tuition for those in STEM fields, even if it's an exceptionally expensive school, as well as redistribution of primary and secondary education funds away from sports/fitness and into STEM things. Women may get STEM degrees on these programs, against men, in a level playing field (that is, if you score good on the tests, you're in)

I also hope you're aware that it isn't my fault that women are physically inferior to men in terms of upper body strength. It looks like women will need to make themselves useful in some other way.

My proposed policies involve giving everyone the opportunity to be useful, and those that can't hack it intellectually or physically should not necessarily be forsaken, but they should be removed from the gene pool. You must have some redeeming qualities to merit your continuation.

[Marquessa_De_SadeFW]

Mistress Lithia

Marquessa_De_Sade

color me confused.
So a person stand up and says "if you want that child be responsible for it" , Makes note that tax payers shouldnt fund a womans choice to do with her body as she sees fit..and its...a bad thing?
Feminist scream it is -their- right to do with their body as they see fit. Right?
And they are right about that. They are. Their body, their issue.
So do not make others responsible for YOUR choices.
If you cant be bothered with birthcontrol(this is not including cases of rape, abuse etc) then do not expect other people(that have no say otherwise in how you take care of your body) to fund your choices for -your- body.
THAT is not some crime.
That is logic. If you kick and scream you want that freedom to do what ever you wish, why should people pay for it if you cant?
Freedom to do what you want....means you are free to do what you want -if you can afford too and take responsibility for it-.
It does NOT mean you can do it...and expect others to take care of it, foot the bill and do what you are not able to do(take care of the situation)

There are cases I do not think this applies too. Rape, abuse, genuine cases of BC failure etc.
But if you want the fun...take the responsibility for that fun and what may come from it.

yes, because impoverishing people even further, thus further pushing the US to third world poverty levels, is an excellent thing!

How about we actually pay employees a living wage, something they can support their families on without government aid, so that there is far less need for such programs? No, that can't possibly be a good idea. Let's be classists and force children to live in poverty all because we don't like that a woman wants to be a mother.

When did I ever say not to pay good wages? Of course people should be paid good wages. Of course people should be helped when in need. But here is the thing. And I know I will catch fire for this.
BUT
You can get -free- birth control in the states. I know this for fact.
So, unless it is a case of rape, failure of birth control, etc...there really is no excuse for abortions to be used in stead of taking precautions.
As I stated in my post. Cases of rape, incest(still rape), medical need, birth control failing...why cant a woman be expected to take steps not to get pregnant instead of just going and getting abortions?
Woman are more then intelligent enough, more then capable enough of insuring their own ability to stop pregnancy before it happens.(-again- this is not speaking about rape etc, which I have stated multiple times)
If a woman can not or will not take those steps, why should others pay for it?

This is not a debate about a "poor woman wishing to be a mother". I have no issue paying taxes to fund food stamps and never said otherwise.
I do have an issue though tax money going to pay for abortion to woman who just...didnt care enough to protect herself or make sure her partner put a condom on.
Those two issues, food and abortion are separate issues.
EDIT:
As a woman, it was my responsibility for my body, to insure I didnt get pregnant when I didnt wish too. When I did(was able too) get pregnant, it was -my- responsibility to take care of what followed.
It was -my- body. Why should someone else of paid for me to have an abortion if I wasnt willing to take responsibility myself?
There is all the outrage...a woman's body is hers to do with as she sees fit. YES! it is. so then do not make it others responsibility to pay for an abortion. because it is -your- body.
Not theirs.
AGAIN, unless it is a case of rape, birth control failure, medical need...sorry. A woman should be responsible for an abortion if that is what she wishes.

[vegan shrimp kabob]

if this is about taxes.
imagine how much taxes are now going to fund social services to women in extreme states of mental distress because they can't deal with the pain caused to them by being forced to abort a baby they wanted to keep.

[Roih Uvet]

remourleia

if this is about taxes.
imagine how much taxes are now going to fund social services to women in extreme states of mental distress because they can't deal with the pain caused to them by being forced to abort a baby they wanted to keep.

I don't recall supporting a Womynfeels Fund.

[vegan shrimp kabob]

Roih Uvet

remourleia

if this is about taxes.
imagine how much taxes are now going to fund social services to women in extreme states of mental distress because they can't deal with the pain caused to them by being forced to abort a baby they wanted to keep.

I don't recall supporting a Womynfeels Fund.

well, then we'll have more homeless people, because that's usually what happens to people with no money and no other support after going through a really traumatic experience such as this one.
So your plan would cause more harm than good.

What you should want is maybe for the rich billionnaire politicians to stop hoarding so much money and for less tax money to go to paying their ridiculous salaries and have it go to the single-mother fund instead

[HMS Thunder Child]

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

you do realize those types of positions often require either a) a college degree or b) muscle mass/body strength, to handle the heavy lifting that goes with construction, right? And that the majority of women are not built for that, right? And if you're already poor, college is not a viable option.

Yes, I am aware of that.

I hope you're aware that I support massive government financing of those children that already exist in the form of a number of things that would include college tuition for those in STEM fields, even if it's an exceptionally expensive school, as well as redistribution of primary and secondary education funds away from sports/fitness and into STEM things. Women may get STEM degrees on these programs, against men, in a level playing field (that is, if you score good on the tests, you're in)

I also hope you're aware that it isn't my fault that women are physically inferior to men in terms of upper body strength. It looks like women will need to make themselves useful in some other way.

My proposed policies involve giving everyone the opportunity to be useful, and those that can't hack it intellectually or physically should not necessarily be forsaken, but they should be removed from the gene pool. You must have some redeeming qualities to merit your continuation.

Utilitarian view of human value is a capitalist belief and has no business in a class-shattering praxis.

[Roih Uvet]

HMS Thunder Child

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

you do realize those types of positions often require either a) a college degree or b) muscle mass/body strength, to handle the heavy lifting that goes with construction, right? And that the majority of women are not built for that, right? And if you're already poor, college is not a viable option.

Yes, I am aware of that.

I hope you're aware that I support massive government financing of those children that already exist in the form of a number of things that would include college tuition for those in STEM fields, even if it's an exceptionally expensive school, as well as redistribution of primary and secondary education funds away from sports/fitness and into STEM things. Women may get STEM degrees on these programs, against men, in a level playing field (that is, if you score good on the tests, you're in)

I also hope you're aware that it isn't my fault that women are physically inferior to men in terms of upper body strength. It looks like women will need to make themselves useful in some other way.

My proposed policies involve giving everyone the opportunity to be useful, and those that can't hack it intellectually or physically should not necessarily be forsaken, but they should be removed from the gene pool. You must have some redeeming qualities to merit your continuation.

Utilitarian view of human value is a capitalist belief and has no business in a class-shattering praxis.

Sure it does. Class, as it's understood in the Western world, is something you inherit, and not in a genetic sense at that. It's very similar to caste in this regard, except you don't also inherit a profession and special rules about your conduct--it's just your overall standing in the world. Obviating class in this sense does not obviate meritocracy or the need to contribute meaningfully. "May the best man win" is not classist.

[HMS Thunder Child]

Roih Uvet

HMS Thunder Child

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

you do realize those types of positions often require either a) a college degree or b) muscle mass/body strength, to handle the heavy lifting that goes with construction, right? And that the majority of women are not built for that, right? And if you're already poor, college is not a viable option.

Yes, I am aware of that.

I hope you're aware that I support massive government financing of those children that already exist in the form of a number of things that would include college tuition for those in STEM fields, even if it's an exceptionally expensive school, as well as redistribution of primary and secondary education funds away from sports/fitness and into STEM things. Women may get STEM degrees on these programs, against men, in a level playing field (that is, if you score good on the tests, you're in)

I also hope you're aware that it isn't my fault that women are physically inferior to men in terms of upper body strength. It looks like women will need to make themselves useful in some other way.

My proposed policies involve giving everyone the opportunity to be useful, and those that can't hack it intellectually or physically should not necessarily be forsaken, but they should be removed from the gene pool. You must have some redeeming qualities to merit your continuation.

Utilitarian view of human value is a capitalist belief and has no business in a class-shattering praxis.

Sure it does. Class, as it's understood in the Western world, is something you inherit, and not in a genetic sense at that. It's very similar to caste in this regard, except you don't also inherit a profession and special rules about your conduct--it's just your overall standing in the world. Obviating class in this sense does not obviate meritocracy or the need to contribute meaningfully. "May the best man win" is not classist.

What one can do for another is very much an employer-employee mentality. People are only valuable insofar as they benefit you, not really challenging capitalism.

[Mistress Lithia]

Marquessa_De_Sade

Mistress Lithia

Marquessa_De_Sade

color me confused.
So a person stand up and says "if you want that child be responsible for it" , Makes note that tax payers shouldnt fund a womans choice to do with her body as she sees fit..and its...a bad thing?
Feminist scream it is -their- right to do with their body as they see fit. Right?
And they are right about that. They are. Their body, their issue.
So do not make others responsible for YOUR choices.
If you cant be bothered with birthcontrol(this is not including cases of rape, abuse etc) then do not expect other people(that have no say otherwise in how you take care of your body) to fund your choices for -your- body.
THAT is not some crime.
That is logic. If you kick and scream you want that freedom to do what ever you wish, why should people pay for it if you cant?
Freedom to do what you want....means you are free to do what you want -if you can afford too and take responsibility for it-.
It does NOT mean you can do it...and expect others to take care of it, foot the bill and do what you are not able to do(take care of the situation)

There are cases I do not think this applies too. Rape, abuse, genuine cases of BC failure etc.
But if you want the fun...take the responsibility for that fun and what may come from it.

yes, because impoverishing people even further, thus further pushing the US to third world poverty levels, is an excellent thing!

How about we actually pay employees a living wage, something they can support their families on without government aid, so that there is far less need for such programs? No, that can't possibly be a good idea. Let's be classists and force children to live in poverty all because we don't like that a woman wants to be a mother.

When did I ever say not to pay good wages? Of course people should be paid good wages. Of course people should be helped when in need. But here is the thing. And I know I will catch fire for this.
BUT
You can get -free- birth control in the states. I know this for fact.

In some areas, sure, if you're lucky enough to live in a big city where there's public transit and little chance of your family finding out about it and causing a stir. (This is more geared at the younger females who are sexually active, of course)you're also making the false assumption that all birth control is 100% full proof. its not.

Marquessa_De_Sade

So, unless it is a case of rape, failure of birth control, etc...there really is no excuse for abortions to be used in stead of taking precautions.

You have absolutely no grasp of the sex education in the US, if you think this. I was talking with some of the younger members of my very large family over the holidays and we got on the subject of sex ed in public schools. one of my cousins asked me if it was true that condoms don't protect you from getting an STD or getting pregnant, and that they can actually increase the risk if you have sex before you get married. The sex education in the US is atrocious. Most push abstinence only education despite the utter failure rate that has in those areas. In a country where sex is taboo, where females are vilified if they decide to be sexually active, where rapists are often turned into the victims and the rape victims turned into the criminals, to sit there and act like things are so perfect that its easy and acceptable for women to just go wherever they want to get BC is downright ignorant and arrogant,

Marquessa_De_Sade

As I stated in my post. Cases of rape, incest(still rape), medical need, birth control failing...why cant a woman be expected to take steps not to get pregnant instead of just going and getting abortions?

Spoken like someone who has never, ever educated themselves on abortion. the majority of women who seek an abortion report that they USED at least one form of BC and it failed them.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Woman are more then intelligent enough, more then capable enough of insuring their own ability to stop pregnancy before it happens.(-again- this is not speaking about rape etc, which I have stated multiple times)

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

If a woman can not or will not take those steps, why should others pay for it?

Why do you hate your own gender so much? And why do you hate children so much? ********, I'm child free and I'm not that cold hearted that I think children should be forced to live in poverty just because their mother, for whatever reason, might not have used birth control at the time she conceived.

Marquessa_De_Sade

This is not a debate about a "poor woman wishing to be a mother". I have no issue paying taxes to fund food stamps and never said otherwise.

That's what the thread is about, and you agreed with the OP, so yeah, you did.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I do have an issue though tax money going to pay for abortion to woman who just...didnt care enough to protect herself or make sure her partner put a condom on.

So you didn't actually bother to read the OP? Because Macai states specifically that women who cannot afford to raise children should be made to have an abortion and the GOVERNMENT, meaning tax payers, should foot the bill for it.

[Marquessa_De_SadeFW]

Mistress Lithia

Marquessa_De_Sade

Mistress Lithia

Marquessa_De_Sade

color me confused.
So a person stand up and says "if you want that child be responsible for it" , Makes note that tax payers shouldnt fund a womans choice to do with her body as she sees fit..and its...a bad thing?
Feminist scream it is -their- right to do with their body as they see fit. Right?
And they are right about that. They are. Their body, their issue.
So do not make others responsible for YOUR choices.
If you cant be bothered with birthcontrol(this is not including cases of rape, abuse etc) then do not expect other people(that have no say otherwise in how you take care of your body) to fund your choices for -your- body.
THAT is not some crime.
That is logic. If you kick and scream you want that freedom to do what ever you wish, why should people pay for it if you cant?
Freedom to do what you want....means you are free to do what you want -if you can afford too and take responsibility for it-.
It does NOT mean you can do it...and expect others to take care of it, foot the bill and do what you are not able to do(take care of the situation)

There are cases I do not think this applies too. Rape, abuse, genuine cases of BC failure etc.
But if you want the fun...take the responsibility for that fun and what may come from it.

yes, because impoverishing people even further, thus further pushing the US to third world poverty levels, is an excellent thing!

How about we actually pay employees a living wage, something they can support their families on without government aid, so that there is far less need for such programs? No, that can't possibly be a good idea. Let's be classists and force children to live in poverty all because we don't like that a woman wants to be a mother.

When did I ever say not to pay good wages? Of course people should be paid good wages. Of course people should be helped when in need. But here is the thing. And I know I will catch fire for this.
BUT
You can get -free- birth control in the states. I know this for fact.

In some areas, sure, if you're lucky enough to live in a big city where there's public transit and little chance of your family finding out about it and causing a stir. (This is more geared at the younger females who are sexually active, of course)you're also making the false assumption that all birth control is 100% full proof. its not.

Marquessa_De_Sade

So, unless it is a case of rape, failure of birth control, etc...there really is no excuse for abortions to be used in stead of taking precautions.

You have absolutely no grasp of the sex education in the US, if you think this. I was talking with some of the younger members of my very large family over the holidays and we got on the subject of sex ed in public schools. one of my cousins asked me if it was true that condoms don't protect you from getting an STD or getting pregnant, and that they can actually increase the risk if you have sex before you get married. The sex education in the US is atrocious. Most push abstinence only education despite the utter failure rate that has in those areas. In a country where sex is taboo, where females are vilified if they decide to be sexually active, where rapists are often turned into the victims and the rape victims turned into the criminals, to sit there and act like things are so perfect that its easy and acceptable for women to just go wherever they want to get BC is downright ignorant and arrogant,

Marquessa_De_Sade

As I stated in my post. Cases of rape, incest(still rape), medical need, birth control failing...why cant a woman be expected to take steps not to get pregnant instead of just going and getting abortions?

Spoken like someone who has never, ever educated themselves on abortion. the majority of women who seek an abortion report that they USED at least one form of BC and it failed them.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Woman are more then intelligent enough, more then capable enough of insuring their own ability to stop pregnancy before it happens.(-again- this is not speaking about rape etc, which I have stated multiple times)

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

If a woman can not or will not take those steps, why should others pay for it?

Why do you hate your own gender so much? And why do you hate children so much? ********, I'm child free and I'm not that cold hearted that I think children should be forced to live in poverty just because their mother, for whatever reason, might not have used birth control at the time she conceived.

Marquessa_De_Sade

This is not a debate about a "poor woman wishing to be a mother". I have no issue paying taxes to fund food stamps and never said otherwise.

That's what the thread is about, and you agreed with the OP, so yeah, you did.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I do have an issue though tax money going to pay for abortion to woman who just...didnt care enough to protect herself or make sure her partner put a condom on.

So you didn't actually bother to read the OP? Because Macai states specifically that women who cannot afford to raise children should be made to have an abortion and the GOVERNMENT, meaning tax payers, should foot the bill for it.

ACTUALLY I went to highschool in the states. To be exact in defiance Missouri. I know exactly how sex ed is in the states.
So sorry. I DO know, I know about how back water the whole thing can be.
Look up defiance missouri sometime..or for that matter pacific missouri. VERY small town and very "in every bodies business" also very country and no public transport(at the time I lived in pacific there was one bus that came twice a day to go to st.louis. Once in the morning, once at night)
YES I DO KNOW. FIRST HAND.
There was still clinics that gave free Birthcontrol to anyone that wished it. They didnt make a fuss about it and no one knew unless you let them know, you had it or gotten it from. I know all about the stupid ideas of everything from coka cola as birth control to "you wont get pregnant if you have sex standing up". Here is the other thing...it is not just in the states. I have heard some pretty daft things here from youths about sex.

AGAIN, I never said that most women use abortion as birth control. I said -=those women that use it=- should pay for it <i>unless it is a case of rape, incest, birth control failure or medical need</I>.
THEREBY clearing up the fact that if a woman is using it as a means of birth control they should pay for it.
VERY clearly said that...repeatedly.
The very sentence denotes that I am referring to women that use it as a means of birth control.
THEREFORE they should pay for it.

I am very far from hating my gender. Quite the contrary. I ADORE being a woman and I have very high regard FOR women. CONSEQUENTLY why I think women are intelligent enough to either take precautions or be responsible for their actions and pay for an abortion(because it needs to be said again) UNLESS a case of rape, birth control failure or medical need.
I believe women to be competent. Therefore why shouldn't they be held responsible for their actions?
Women are not children that throw their responsibilities to someone else when they do not like their choices.
I am a woman. I take responsibility for my -own body- and my choices.
Why shouldnt I expect other -women- to do the same?Women are a rainbow of things. Woman have the ability to take care of themselves due to their strength and intelligence...so why wouldnt they(or shouldnt they) be fully capable of using birth control or paying for their own abortion(unless a case of rape, medical need or birth control failure)?
That is not a hatred for my gender...that is RESPECT for the strength and intelligence of my gender!
The very ideal of "independent women" is that....independent. Being able to make choices <i> and deal with the consequences of those choices</I>.
You can not say in one hand "we control out bodies!! you have no right to tell us what to do with it" then turn around and go "oh btw pay for my abortion".
YOUR body....YOUR responsibility.
And I far from hate children...my daughter can attest to that. never mind the fact that I would give everything I own to have another!
expecting people to be responsible for their actions is not HATE! its logic!

[Mistress Lithia]

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

Remember how, for years, feminists have insisted on a pro-choice policy when it comes to abortion? "My body, my choice" is a phrase used for decades to illustrate their point of view. What they fail to address is the reality that the consequences of this decision, to abort or to not abort, has consequences for everyone else, especially if we have all these entitlements programs like WIC, food stamps, TANF, public school, and so on, all there supporting single mothers all the way through the first two decades of this child's life.

Sounds to me like you're pro-abortion there Macai. It sounds like you want every pregnancy to be terminated. You're going to have to prove that every single mother gets public assistance.

Not once did I say that I want all pregnancies to be terminated.

Did you miss the words 'sounds like'? Those are key words. That's how you come across because EVERY single pregnant woman has the potential to become a single mother, which in turn means every pregnant woman has the potential to need public assistance to support her child/children, your stance can easily be construed that way.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

It's almost like their actual position is "my body, my choice, your problem," and simply put, ******** that noise outright. Literally the moment I am held even partially accountable for someone else's choices or their consequences, even indirectly as in through taxes, compulsory insurance premiums, etc., is the moment that I have every right to meddle in their affairs.

So does that mean I can decide whether or not senior citizens can have my hard earned money, or the government itself, since we pay their paychecks and they're ******** us six ways to Sunday? or how about the military? Should I be able to meddle in the military and dictate to them where they can send soldiers, how much they're allowed to pay them, or even if they're allowed to increase the number of military personnel?

Yes. You can and should vote on those matters if you care about them, because you pay taxes. (Even indirectly, through rent, you pay taxes)

No no no. You aren't advocating for 'voting on an issue that says we can stipulate where our tax money goes'. You want to make it law to force women to abort wanted children. Now, I will ignore the morality of your stance because I know that you'll dismiss the very real damage that can do to a person on a mental and emotional level as irrelevant because reasons, but I'm not going to let you slide on the way you have presented your argument.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

My entire adult life, I've paid taxes to this single mother industrial complex.

Source for this?

What, you want me to get my tax returns out for the past decade or so? razz

you're smarter than this Macai. You are referring to a specific thing existing, I am asking for actual proof that it exists. Mind you I will not accept an inaccurate article that tries to equate being unmarried with being single as 'proof' either.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

This reality has given me a place telling women what to do with their bodies, since I am partially responsible for the choices that they make. And what do women need to do? Get an abortion.

No, it doesn't. You see, you seem to think that once you give something away you still have some control over it. You and BWA must really get along since he has the same delusion. once you give the government money, via taxes, it is no longer yours and you no longer have any say in how its spent.

Yes I do. It's called voting. Even half-assed democratic societies like our own have this feature. And that's only one form of recourse I have.

You aren't talking about voting on issues that don't exist. You are talking about bypassing the voters and making a law that makes forced abortion of the lower class the law of the land. Not only is that classist but it is also extremely racist since the majority of those living below the federal poverty line, and thus needing assistance, tend to be minorities. Throw in 'Let's cut off all aid to those moochers, the senior citizens' and you'll be a well rounded "bigot". Yes, that is in quotations for a reason. Mainly because I don't think you're actually a bigot. You just enjoy yanking people's chains to see what kind of a knee-jerk reaction you can get from them. You're a troll, but a troll with some dignity.

Roih Uvet

If voting doesn't work, I have all kinds of things I can do to ******** with this system, like:
* Tax evasion,

go for it. you'll eventually end up in jail and become someone's b***h but go for it.

Roih Uvet

* Fall off the grid,

And? If you really had such an issue over this you would have done so already.

Roih Uvet

* Play the welfare game (it's not easy but you can totally work this system--I know people that do personally),

you see, those exceptions don't really work with me. Those rare people like that are not the norm.

Roih Uvet

* Direct action (a bit extreme, but hey)

Sure, go ahead, and again you'll become someone's b***h in prison.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

If you can't afford a baby, you need to get an abortion.

While I agree that the woman should seriously consider this if she is unable to provide for it, see above if you think you have some delusional right to dictate what she does or doesn't do.

Actually, we all have that right. In fact, we call this "society." You know those laws on the books saying I can't murder, steal from, or rape you? Hell, there are tons of victimelss crimes on the books as well, and they get routinely enforced. See drug laws. See pornography bans. See licensing requirements laws, like medical or legal licenses. See healthcare laws that require me to buy a service.

If you honestly think society dictates people's decisions right up until your uterus is involved, you're the one that's deluded, not me.

You seem to be ignoring the laws that say you cannot do that. Oh, I know, the woman haters in government control right now are trying to do away with those laws, but they're going to find themselves with quite the revolt if they actually threw them out entirely. Which is why they're trying to limit it as much as possible. They know it will be hell on earth if they tried to turn an entire gender back into second class citizens.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

I think the government should fund them, outright, because it's cheaper than having to fund your retard baby.

Oh, so now not only are you anti-birth in all cases, you're a bigot against those who are mentally handicapped?

It just so happens that we have a surplus of retard babies. I think we can cope with not having any more.

Nice to know you hold your prejudice proudly. Also, care to prove that?

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

Exceptions should be made for exceptionally intelligent parents (130 IQ or higher) and women that don't need the government to support them for the next two decades after giving birth to a child.

Again you need to prove that every single mother gets aid. You also need to prove that the aid is ongoing for 20 years. You also need to address the fact that the US does not pay a living wage, which leads to even families with TWO working parents having to rely on food stamps and other forms of government assistance to provide for their families.

No, I don't need to prove that every single mother gets aid, because my argument does not hinge on every mother getting aid.

Your argument is that being a SINGLE mother means you're not going to be able to provide support for your child and thus you should be forced to have an abortion even if you want your child. Again I will not address the mental damage this would cause because you'll dismiss it as irrelevant anyway. But give your stance, you need to prove that single mothers, even in the norm, get aid for 20 years from the government. if you want people to buy into your forced abortion line then you need to provide fire power to get them interested. That means supporting your stance.

Roih Uvet

As for the non-living wage, I actually do feel very strongly about that and think we should implement a technocracy over it. The market clearly hasn't worked for your average person, of either sex.

Something we can agree on.

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

Roih Uvet

I don't want the government to create handout programs, but to create public works/infrastructure projects that pay well and keep the general population employed, busy, and useful. And sorry to say, but giving birth is not a huge contribution to society; if anything, it's a ******** burden. So your abortion should be compulsory.

you do realize how ignorant the bold is, right? Where, pray tell, do you think the money that YOU will get when you're old enough to retire and collect social security will be coming from? If there are fewer people in the younger generations, a lot of elderly will starve to death. So not only are you a classist but an ageist as well. Good job Macai.

I likely won't get Social Security at all because it will probably be insolvent.

Dismissing it on some made up belief doesn't change what I said Macai. Care to actually address what I said?

[Mistress Lithia]

Roih Uvet

Mistress Lithia

you do realize those types of positions often require either a) a college degree or b) muscle mass/body strength, to handle the heavy lifting that goes with construction, right? And that the majority of women are not built for that, right? And if you're already poor, college is not a viable option.

Yes, I am aware of that.

I hope you're aware that I support massive government financing of those children that already exist in the form of a number of things that would include college tuition for those in STEM fields, even if it's an exceptionally expensive school, as well as redistribution of primary and secondary education funds away from sports/fitness and into STEM things. Women may get STEM degrees on these programs, against men, in a level playing field (that is, if you score good on the tests, you're in)

I also hope you're aware that it isn't my fault that women are physically inferior to men in terms of upper body strength. It looks like women will need to make themselves useful in some other way.

My proposed policies involve giving everyone the opportunity to be useful, and those that can't hack it intellectually or physically should not necessarily be forsaken, but they should be removed from the gene pool. You must have some redeeming qualities to merit your continuation.

You're really trying too hard to get a knee-jerk emotional reaction here. Personally, I'm not a big supporter of only focusing on science, technology, engineering, and math. The world does not revolve around just those things. It never has, and you would create a wealth of ignorance in other things, a void of the arts. Humans are not robots after all. We are passionate creatures and STEM is as far from passion as you can get. Its become a big focus in the presidency because we've pushed standardized testing so much that we have insured a lack of interest in those fields. We are not educating children to do anything but answer standardized tests. Is there need for reform in education? Hell yes. But only focusing on one part of it is not the way to go.

[Mistress Lithia]

Marquessa_De_Sade

ACTUALLY I went to highschool in the states. To be exact in defiance Missouri. I know exactly how sex ed is in the states.

We both know damn good and well that you didn't just graduate from high school within the last few years so don't even attempt to pull that s**t on me.

Marquessa_De_Sade

So sorry. I DO know, I know about how back water the whole thing can be.

Again, we both know you didn't just graduate. When you and I were in school the sex education was a bit better, on the whole, from what it is not. They didn't just push 'Don't have sex until you say I do because if you have sex, you're gonna get a disease or get knocked up. the only way to protect yourself from not having a baby before you're ready, and not becoming disease ridden, is to wait until that magical time when you say I do because then everything is perfect'. they taught, even if only a little, on the basics of protecting yourself if you became sexually active.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Look up defiance missouri sometime..or for that matter pacific missouri. VERY small town and very "in every bodies business" also very country and no public transport(at the time I lived in pacific there was one bus that came twice a day to go to st.louis. Once in the morning, once at night)
YES I DO KNOW. FIRST HAND.

You really did completely miss EVERY ******** thing I said, didn't you? You have a bad habit of doing that.

Marquessa_De_Sade

There was still clinics that gave free Birthcontrol to anyone that wished it. They didnt make a fuss about it and no one knew unless you let them know, you had it or gotten it from.

So which is it? Was it a 'everyone knows everyone's business' or 'no one knows anyone's business unless they talked about it'? You can't have it both ******** ways.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I know all about the stupid ideas of everything from coka cola as birth control to "you wont get pregnant if you have sex standing up". Here is the other thing...it is not just in the states. I have heard some pretty daft things here from youths about sex. [/qupote]

And yet you're arrogantly and ignorantly seem to believe that... they'll know better because reasons?

Marquessa_De_Sade

AGAIN, I never said that most women use abortion as birth control. I said -=those women that use it=- should pay for it <i>unless it is a case of rape, incest, birth control failure or medical need</I>.

So.. you think that women who have been given faulty information, or women who were for whatever reason too scared to seek out bc, or women who had unprotected sex one time and the fates decided to go against them, should be forced to pay several hundred dollars, money they very likely do not even have, all because you want to punish them for having sex you don't agree with? So your 'Whatever floats your boat' attitude in the LMB thread only extends to BDSM and only to those who ******** with protection? The rest can be punished because they're having sex you don't like?

Marquessa_De_Sade

THEREBY clearing up the fact that if a woman is using it as a means of birth control they should pay for it.
VERY clearly said that...repeatedly.

Yes, you are really good at touting the panti-woman party line. Who cares if its extremely ignorant to assume that there is a high number of women who knowingly and deliberately have unprotected sex all the time just to get pregnant and run off to their local (read possibly hundreds of miles away) clinic to spend several hundred dollars on an abortion every few months
The very sentence denotes that I am referring to women that use it as a means of birth control.
THEREFORE they should pay for it.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I am very far from hating my gender. Quite the contrary. I ADORE being a woman and I have very high regard FOR women.

No, you have very high regard for women who have sex you agree with. the rest you're cool with penalizing.

Marquessa_De_Sade

CONSEQUENTLY why I think women are intelligent enough to either take precautions or be responsible for their actions and pay for an abortion(because it needs to be said again) UNLESS a case of rape, birth control failure or medical need.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I believe women to be competent. Therefore why shouldn't they be held responsible for their actions?

Touting the anti-woman part line again I see.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Women are not children that throw their responsibilities to someone else when they do not like their choices.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I am a woman. I take responsibility for my -own body- and my choices.

And?

Marquessa_De_Sade

Why shouldnt I expect other -women- to do the same?Women are a rainbow of things. Woman have the ability to take care of themselves due to their strength and intelligence...so why wouldnt they(or shouldnt they) be fully capable of using birth control or paying for their own abortion(unless a case of rape, medical need or birth control failure)?

See above. I'm not goign to repeat myself.

Marquessa_De_Sade

That is not a hatred for my gender...that is RESPECT for the strength and intelligence of my gender!

Yes, because punishing women for a slip is showing respect. Not.

Marquessa_De_Sade

The very ideal of "independent women" is that....independent. Being able to make choices <i> and deal with the consequences of those choices</I>.
You can not say in one hand "we control out bodies!! you have no right to tell us what to do with it" then turn around and go "oh btw pay for my abortion".

Cool, then I can refuse to allow insurance companies to pay for cancer treatment on patients who deliberately caused their own cancer, right? Oh, and those people who deliberately get behind the wheel of a car, no insurance to pay for their iniquities if they get into an accident, because they made the choice to be behind the wheel.

Marquessa_De_Sade

YOUR body....YOUR responsibility.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

And I far from hate children...my daughter can attest to that. never mind the fact that I would give everything I own to have another!
expecting people to be responsible for their actions is not HATE! its logic!

Yes, you do hate children. Having one of your own doesn't change that. You think its cool to say 'Either pay for your own abortion or give birth to a child you cannot afford, a child that will be impoverished because you yourself are poor'.

Me, I say 'If insurance companies are going to pay for smokers to get the medical care they need for a conscious decision then women should be given the exact same treatment; insurance companies need to pay for the medical care they need for consciously having sex regardless of whether or not they used protection at the time'.

This whole idea that we carter to everyone else, we pay for their medical bills via the money we put into insurance and taxes, regardless of what they do to their bodies, but that stops when its a female who dares to have sex' is misogynist. So bravo on catering to misogyny.

[Marquessa_De_SadeFW]

Mistress Lithia

Marquessa_De_Sade

ACTUALLY I went to highschool in the states. To be exact in defiance Missouri. I know exactly how sex ed is in the states.

We both know damn good and well that you didn't just graduate from high school within the last few years so don't even attempt to pull that s**t on me.

Marquessa_De_Sade

So sorry. I DO know, I know about how back water the whole thing can be.

Again, we both know you didn't just graduate. When you and I were in school the sex education was a bit better, on the whole, from what it is not. They didn't just push 'Don't have sex until you say I do because if you have sex, you're gonna get a disease or get knocked up. the only way to protect yourself from not having a baby before you're ready, and not becoming disease ridden, is to wait until that magical time when you say I do because then everything is perfect'. they taught, even if only a little, on the basics of protecting yourself if you became sexually active.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Look up defiance missouri sometime..or for that matter pacific missouri. VERY small town and very "in every bodies business" also very country and no public transport(at the time I lived in pacific there was one bus that came twice a day to go to st.louis. Once in the morning, once at night)
YES I DO KNOW. FIRST HAND.

You really did completely miss EVERY ******** thing I said, didn't you? You have a bad habit of doing that.

Marquessa_De_Sade

There was still clinics that gave free Birthcontrol to anyone that wished it. They didnt make a fuss about it and no one knew unless you let them know, you had it or gotten it from.

So which is it? Was it a 'everyone knows everyone's business' or 'no one knows anyone's business unless they talked about it'? You can't have it both ******** ways.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I know all about the stupid ideas of everything from coka cola as birth control to "you wont get pregnant if you have sex standing up". Here is the other thing...it is not just in the states. I have heard some pretty daft things here from youths about sex. [/qupote]

And yet you're arrogantly and ignorantly seem to believe that... they'll know better because reasons?

Marquessa_De_Sade

AGAIN, I never said that most women use abortion as birth control. I said -=those women that use it=- should pay for it <i>unless it is a case of rape, incest, birth control failure or medical need</I>.

So.. you think that women who have been given faulty information, or women who were for whatever reason too scared to seek out bc, or women who had unprotected sex one time and the fates decided to go against them, should be forced to pay several hundred dollars, money they very likely do not even have, all because you want to punish them for having sex you don't agree with? So your 'Whatever floats your boat' attitude in the LMB thread only extends to BDSM and only to those who ******** with protection? The rest can be punished because they're having sex you don't like?

Marquessa_De_Sade

THEREBY clearing up the fact that if a woman is using it as a means of birth control they should pay for it.
VERY clearly said that...repeatedly.

Yes, you are really good at touting the panti-woman party line. Who cares if its extremely ignorant to assume that there is a high number of women who knowingly and deliberately have unprotected sex all the time just to get pregnant and run off to their local (read possibly hundreds of miles away) clinic to spend several hundred dollars on an abortion every few months
The very sentence denotes that I am referring to women that use it as a means of birth control.
THEREFORE they should pay for it.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I am very far from hating my gender. Quite the contrary. I ADORE being a woman and I have very high regard FOR women.

No, you have very high regard for women who have sex you agree with. the rest you're cool with penalizing.

Marquessa_De_Sade

CONSEQUENTLY why I think women are intelligent enough to either take precautions or be responsible for their actions and pay for an abortion(because it needs to be said again) UNLESS a case of rape, birth control failure or medical need.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I believe women to be competent. Therefore why shouldn't they be held responsible for their actions?

Touting the anti-woman part line again I see.

Marquessa_De_Sade

Women are not children that throw their responsibilities to someone else when they do not like their choices.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

I am a woman. I take responsibility for my -own body- and my choices.

And?

Marquessa_De_Sade

Why shouldnt I expect other -women- to do the same?Women are a rainbow of things. Woman have the ability to take care of themselves due to their strength and intelligence...so why wouldnt they(or shouldnt they) be fully capable of using birth control or paying for their own abortion(unless a case of rape, medical need or birth control failure)?

See above. I'm not goign to repeat myself.

Marquessa_De_Sade

That is not a hatred for my gender...that is RESPECT for the strength and intelligence of my gender!

Yes, because punishing women for a slip is showing respect. Not.

Marquessa_De_Sade

The very ideal of "independent women" is that....independent. Being able to make choices <i> and deal with the consequences of those choices</I>.
You can not say in one hand "we control out bodies!! you have no right to tell us what to do with it" then turn around and go "oh btw pay for my abortion".

Cool, then I can refuse to allow insurance companies to pay for cancer treatment on patients who deliberately caused their own cancer, right? Oh, and those people who deliberately get behind the wheel of a car, no insurance to pay for their iniquities if they get into an accident, because they made the choice to be behind the wheel.

Marquessa_De_Sade

YOUR body....YOUR responsibility.

See above.

Marquessa_De_Sade

And I far from hate children...my daughter can attest to that. never mind the fact that I would give everything I own to have another!
expecting people to be responsible for their actions is not HATE! its logic!

Yes, you do hate children. Having one of your own doesn't change that. You think its cool to say 'Either pay for your own abortion or give birth to a child you cannot afford, a child that will be impoverished because you yourself are poor'.

Me, I say 'If insurance companies are going to pay for smokers to get the medical care they need for a conscious decision then women should be given the exact same treatment; insurance companies need to pay for the medical care they need for consciously having sex regardless of whether or not they used protection at the time'.

This whole idea that we carter to everyone else, we pay for their medical bills via the money we put into insurance and taxes, regardless of what they do to their bodies, but that stops when its a female who dares to have sex' is misogynist. So bravo on catering to misogyny.

WHERE in ANY sentence did I say I just graduated????
WHERE?
seriously?
There is NO anti-woman thing.
SERIOUSLY.
Saying a woman is INTELLIGENT and COMPETENT is actually the Opposite of anti-woman!
You have something in your head and no amount of ACTUAL FACTS will change it.
You are flat out making things up.

I am saying if you make a CHOICE. SEX IS A CHOICE, then live up to YOUR own PERSONAL choice.


That is not some crazy obsurd idea.
That is called ADULTHOOD.

I, my family, my friends..Those people that have spoken to me, know me, work with me, LIVE with me or (here is a crazy idea) MET ME, know who and what I am, KNOW I adore children.
You want to make crap up...that is all on YOU.


What I find ironic..you accuse me of "anti-woman" while saying woman are just too inept to take care of their sexual health.
They just had sex, no birth control and now expect someone to pay for their abortion. They cant afford it, they cant afford a kid so someone else pay for it.
THAT...is insulting.
To say woman are not responsible enough, not intelligent enough...to deal with their own bodies or health.
THAT is insulting.
We are not talking about a woman who was raped, who is medically in need of an abortion. We are speaking about a woman who made a -conscious- choice to have sex, unprotected. If she gets pregnant than...kind of her own doing.
SHE should take responsibility for her OWN BODY(the hallmark cry of feminist everywhere) and either pay for the abortion or have the child.

That is also not anti-child.
That is anti-"I will do what I want and everyone else deal with it".

Women scream "my body my rights!"
E-X-A-C-T-L-Y
YOUR body, YOUR responsibility. You can not cry "it is my body you have no right to tell me what to do with it" then turn around and go "but you have to pay for my abortion now because I didnt use protection"
Kind of a double standard

And btw....there ARE insurance companies and doctors that DO deny treatment to smokers, etc.
Heck here you can even be denied certain treatments if you are too heavy.
So, YES they can deny a person that for taking risks with their health knowingly.
Hell there was a case here of an idiot went fell walking in weather that was bad and after rescuing him they made him pay for the rescue due to the very obvious risk he put himself and the rescue crew in!