Onolia
iMOOFINz
Onolia
iMOOFINz
Onolia
Social inequality exists and it creates all kinds of problems for all kinds of people. I'm sure you and your brother are well meaning people, but I don't think you understand the nature of the society we live- and many people don't. It's unfair and nasty, and that's why people get suckered into these hate groups. I can understand the appeal of the male rights movement to men who feel disenchanted with society, and it goes back to the grass is always greener on the otherside- or in this case, women in society are 'pampered' and while men are not. But you need to understand that both women and men can have a hard time, and will continue to have a hard time until the underlying issues which reproduce this gender inequality within society are abolished. And that is what feminism does, and that is why we need feminism- desperately.
I understand the nature of the society I live in... it's one where yes, there's some nastiness, there's hatred, there's war and there's ugliness. But for the most part I have never felt that society shames me for being a women, or anything of that nature.
I think feminism can be good, but there's a lot of bad in it too. I think that some people are threatened by feminism and see it almost the same as racism or sexism.... but I understand that it does have good qualities, and shouldn't be compared like that.
When we all understand that people are just people and stop seeing gender, skin tone, nationality, etc.... and just see a person, I think that is when society will become at least a bit more peaceful and happy.
Inequality is insidious, and the most of the time you are not going to recognise it unless you study it or it happens to you personally. I sincerely hope that it never does happen to you but it does exist, research show that, and it's not just women.
People have a fear of ideology, and like Marxism, Feminism has got a bad press even though most people don't know what it is. Feminism is very transparent, and it's not bad at all. Keep in mind that all the bad things you listed about feminism, turned out to have nothing to do with feminism like child custody disputes. Contemporary feminism is highly academic and as such there activities and research are regulated by ethics boards and everything is peer reviewed in academic journals. All this hype about feminism being bad, or having this good/bad divide is highly sensationalised by people who frankly don't know anything about feminism.
And finally things like gender, ethnicity, nationality form a huge part of identity. People are not collective hive minds like the borg, and as such we have to understand and appreciate the importance of a person's social background. If gender didn't matter then men who were getting beat up by their wives wouldn't feel emasculated.
Interestingly there is one branch of feminism that would agree with your proposed ideal society where social factors like gender, ethnicity, ect no longer matters- and that is radical feminism, which is often coined the most 'extreme' form of feminism... but its not really, its just the choice of words.
So I read all that you said, and we can refer back to it later if you'd like, but I think this here is the main point of the subject... ^_^
Well, you said that, "...most of the time you are not going to recognise it unless you study it or it happens to you"
Yes, but that doesn't mean I believe in ghosts. What I'm getting at is that... I feel that feminism suggests that I'm not getting what I need from society. Or that I'm being repressed in some way.
Help! Help! I'm being repressed!
I just don't feel like what you said,
"labour, caregivers, media, division of labour ect. But the easiest way to see how women are marginalised is by looking at their representation in positions of power and authority- and you'll find that it is universally under-represented and monopolised by white rich old men" to be a current issue. I think that
I can get any job I want to (realistically speaking) of course, I would need to be the right person for the job.
"The point is that women are facing labour barriers that prevent them from entering better jobs."
I am a Dental student, working towards becoming a dentist. Some day I plan on having my own clinic. How is it that I have been presented with barriers? I think any road blocks I've had are simply of my own design or lack of personal skills. Also what barriers are specific to women? I know men who have failed to get that job they wanted because they don't have the skills required for the job. I'll go back to the "monopolised by white rich old men" comment, because I see a point there. Honestly-- I'm not joking--- I think that old rich white men hold those positions of power because they are inherently not interesting to women. Men have a higher interest usually in positions of authority because... idk they're male bravado shines the shiniest behind a podium? I don't know but whatever the case I think it's just a position that is currently geared towards men-- that doesn't mean you
can't pursue those positions though, and it doesn't make those rich white men fallacious for holding them, either.
I'm sorry if it seems I'm cherry picking your points. I suppose I'm trying to dig through the negative stereo type of feminists (feminazis?) and actually have clear understanding of the purpose of it, and as a women I think it's probably a good thing to be well aware of. If I can't experience it until I experience it, and since I can't prove a negative... :]
I think we can have charities without feminism, and I think that it has for the most part served it's purpose in society. I guess I just don't see the point anymore... at least not in (I hesitate to say) English speaking areas of the world? Western seems vague because I know cultural differences could vary drastically from one place to another within only a few miles of each other..
The problem is that you are looking at the situation from your own personal experience which is not going to be representative of society. You may have never been a victim of domestic violence, but that doesn't mean that victims of domestic violence do not exist. Both quantitative and qualitative data exist on these matters so I'm not exactly asking you to believe in ghosts. These are issues that are tangible in nature which can investigated and measured. So it's kind of cop out to say- well it doesn't happen to me so it must not happen to other women. If feminism was making this s**t up then governmental departments like
this would not exist. There is a massive body of knowledge and literature on these issues- and yes those issues I listed are contemporary issues for example:
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care giver (more recent report from 2009).
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2012 labour report, under representation of women in higher wage jobs
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Division of domestic labour
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media (this is an example of a charity funding research)
There are more recent articles and research on these areas, however to access them you have to pay, so I have chosen sources which you can access for free and are fairly easy to read as some academic articles are intelligible without a background knowledge of the subject.
Okay, so labour specific barriers...this is where sociology and economics merge and it is quite a heavy concept to explain. First of all you have to understand that the US has a liberal market economy which is driven by competitiveness. So in order for your business to survive you will need to provide services at a competitive price, or services that are competitively innovative. So Apple for example has to be innovative with their products in order to make people want to buy them, and there will be in competition with other companies like Microsoft and Samsung who are also trying to come up with innovative technology to sell. This type of business strategy is known as the 'high road' because it demand higher skill, higher technology and higher quality ect. It's in these industries where people make the most money because these companies want the best people to work for them.
In contrast products, goods, and services which are not innovative like making buckets, or providing a cleaning service are sold through price competitiveness. The lower the price the better, however in order to do this companies take a low road approach where jobs are unskilled, workers are poorly paid and working in poor working conditions. People in these low road businesses have very little prospects of career advancement, or having special fringe benefits attached to their job role. However quite often low road work is flexible which is appealing to women, as they are more likely to be care givers so they can fit work around their caring responsibilities. This kind of flexibility is not afforded to women in high road jobs, and subsequently we see fewer women working in these areas. Plus in some companies women can be held back from career advancement because of fears that a woman would be less committed to their job then a man because they may decide to have children and go on maternity leave ect.
Again we know that barriers exist because it is reflected in the statistical evidence where there are disproportionate gender ratios. So when we look at the percentage of women in part-time employment and contrast it against the percentage of women in care giving roles then we see a pattern...which is later proven by separate research sampling women in part time work.
Okay, so can anyone just climb to the top of the career ladder? Well the chances are if you are an uneducated unskilled single mother, then no that is not going to happen. In fact if you are just uneducated and unskilled then that is not going to happen. People like to reminisce about the old days where people had a dollar to their name and somehow worked their way out of the mire, but the economic reality of today is that jobs tend to polarised by either high skill and high wage jobs, or low skill and low wage job. This kind of notion of hierarchical advancement up the career ladder no longer exists in the majority of industries. So their is this stagnant immobile labour market, and if you read books like the Spirit Level, it explains how societies like the UK and US who have large low wage labour forces combined with a liberal market economy will have very poor social mobility, you can get some of the statistical tables here
*.
So can we have charities without feminism... well charities fund research, and any research to do with women is done by feminists because that's what feminist researchers specialise in- the study of gender. In fact most researchers will adopt a feminist framework when studying women because academically it makes sense as there is no alternative. This right here is a non-issue, its only people like yourself who have this negative connotation of feminism that think we need to separate feminism from charities and research and whatever.... but the reality is that feminists have been studying gender social patterns for decades and to us and the charities/governments that employ us it doesn't really matter. Most research is not ideologically driven anyway so yeah, it's not a major issue.
Okay and finally we use Western societies opposed to English speaking societies, because it denotes countries whose culture, politics, ect are based on Western European culture. English speaking countries would be redundant because there are plenty of countries like Germany, France ect that are non-english speaking but share the culture. Plus there are ex-colonial countries like South Africa which have adopted English as its national language... so that's why we use the term Western in academia.
((that was a long post and if I missed anything out, then just let me know))
I did a tad bit of research, and I think I've summed up our conversation to the following discussion points -- and I believe they address your points above (as well as some of my own)
- Why and Where is feminism still needed in society?
- Are there issues/kinks with the feminist frame of mind that need to be addressed?
- The issue men have with feminism
- What are the long term goals of feminism as a whole?
- Choice Vs. Coercion
- Workplace ethics
1. Why and where is feminism still needed in society?
In our society, many would say that there isn't a need for aggressive/progressive feminism, as there isn't a "war to fight" so to speak. I would agree with this, however I wouldn't flat out say "abolish feminism" as that's pointless and defeats the purpose of freedom of speech and women being able to speak up in the first place. So, Why is feminism needed? After some light reading I've discovered three common arguments for the preservation of feminism
A) All people deserve equality
B) Legislation of the female body
C) Positive enforcement of the past for future generations, and to prevent repetition of mistakes.
Those three things... I am 100% behind. And in those three (
somewhat vague) things I can say feminism strongly holds my support.
However, there are other common hypocritical arguments for feminism, that I believe hold the negative connotations that society sees more often. These arguments are where my issue lies, and while I know feminism as a whole cannot be blamed, it's still an issue. Which brings us to my next point.
Next topics, B and C, I'll discuss together.
Are there issues/kinks with the feminist frame of mind that need to be addressed? and The issue men have with feminism
When I see videos like
this I see a divided people, women (and some men) who are barking up a tree that doesn't even exist. There's no need for this kind of hate speech ("You're F**cking scum" because he was standing in a line?) and is essentially the biggest problem I see with feminism, this idea that men are evil, trash of the earth, and everything they do is malicious and misogynistic, even something like being a police officer and doing their job is bashed as being a "men's rights activist/supporter" when they are like I said only doing their job. So, is this a frame of mind that needs to be addressed? Or do we just chalk this up to being "Just the wackos/extremists" ?
Now, I think men have a tendency to think of feminism as a threat, and from my perspective I think it's because some feminists, like the ones in the video I linked, essentially state that men are pigs simply because they're men. Isn't that the same kind of stereo typing that feminists are fighting to stop, against women? Also, I think those men out there who are super angry like Joe Rogan need to chill out and realize that no magical feminism fairy is going to come along and take their porn away. It's just not going to happen.
What are the long term goals of feminism as a whole?
I suppose I mean this as a question, but I do understand that you don't represent the whole of feminism, but from your perspective, what are some clearly definable goals of feminism? Wouldn't the 'end' of feminism, if in a positive light, mean that the "battle has been won" ? wouldn't that be a good thing?
Choice Vs. Coercion
I had mentioned in my last post that " I feel that feminism suggests that I'm not getting what I need from society. Or that I'm being repressed in some way." I think that view is somewhat validated when I am given statistics of "women in care giving roles" or "gender roles in modern society"... because no one in the government is coercing women into those roles. It's not the government's responsibility to make sure women are fulfilling gender roles, and it's not their responsibility to provide extra intensives for women to work hard for to reach their goals. Out of two genders, it's likely that one would have less opportunities due to a variety of different factors. (location, family's finances, medical issues for women and even just a 50-50 chance.)
If we look at social issues vs. political issues, they shouldn't be dumped together. There's something to be said about, let's say, the entertainment industry's portrait of women, like what Anita Sarkeesian talks about in her Tropes vs. Women videos. But I do not see or hear of any woman being silenced, or maliciously forced into a gender role, or being told they cannot have a job because she is a women.
Whiiiiich brings us to the last topic:
Workplace ethics
I think it's rare that a woman would be actually told "You did not qualify for this job because you might go and full up that womb of yours" But even if she was, and even though that would be extremely rude, that's up to the business owner. If they don't want to hire a women because she may or may not be absent for 9 months or more, that's their prerogative. Now, you said
"However quite often low road work is flexible which is appealing to women, as they are more likely to be care givers so they can fit work around their caring responsibilities. This kind of flexibility is not afforded to women in high road jobs, and subsequently we see fewer women working in these areas"
This goes back to my choice vs coercion point, no one is forcing child baring or 'caring responsibilities' on women. they have the choice to pursue a career, and they have the choice to pursue child rearing or caring responsibilities. Or they can do both. Just because there are lower wage flexible jobs and there are higher paying, less flexible jobs, does not suggest that women are being told they cannot get these higher paying jobs.
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