Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed (ID propaganda)

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Smutterfly

Redem

Smutterfly

The movie was, to some degree, propaganda, but so are a lot of movies. Micheal Moore's movies encourage his audience to think his way, and while I think he's kind of a douche, he's a gifted film maker and he DOES report the facts. He connects them together kind of weird, but they ARE facts.
Expelled is the same way. So they said it was for a more ecumenical movie when they interviewed the evolutionists. IT SHOULDN'T HAVE AFFECTED THEIR ANSWERS.

It would have affected the context of their answers, however. see above.

They answered the questions honestly, right? Then how would it have changed their answers if they had asked the same questions, after telling them it was for Exposed?

Had they known it was for a creationist propaganda movie they would probably not have answered at all, because it has become the norm for such people to take quotes out of context to distort what was being said.

Smutterfly

Alright, I went to that website you posted, and you made valid points. I feel a little less ashamed of my fellow human beings for not firing the creationists, and little more ashamed for splicing the film, even though every interview-based film has done that, to some degree.

To some degree, yes. Many film makers indulge in propaganda and lies of a similar nature.
That makes it no less onerous. Especially coming from a group claiming they're being opressed, and to be the "good" side, to deliberately "bear false witness" against someone like that.

It's irritating.

I dunno how often you've been engaged in these threads, but again and again we see creationists claim the moral high ground as the same time as they spit upon with with lies and deceit.
Some of them you can make the case for that they are merely ignorant of the truth of the matter, but the "leaders" of the ID movement I extend no such generosity towards. They've simply been too obvious in their lies.

[Trorbes]

Smutterfly

EsgarBlackpoxs

Smutterfly

The movie wasn't meant to convert you to ID, it was meant to show the discrimination against ID supporters. Ben Stein doesn't give a flying crap what you believe. He just wants you to be fair about it.

But it failed at that. None of the "victims" of the supposed persecution were actually fired for believing in ID. They were fired for reasons any teacher or professor would.

No, they were fired for mentioning ID.

No, they weren't. Specifically:
* Richard Sternberg was never fired for publishing pro-ID material. He was nearing the end of his "employment (He held a voluntary position as editor) and his stay was extended several years after the incident.
* Caroline Crocker finished teaching her course after the complaints. Further, she was teaching demonstrably false material and deviating from her curriculum.
* There is no evidence of Pamela Winnick being blacklisted, and has continued her career in journalism despite her questionable integrity as a journalist.

[VoijaRisa]

Smutterfly

As an evolutionist, I'm ashamed of the Universities firing people for touting ID concepts.

When they lie to students in order to push ID, I think it's a perfectly justifiable reason to fire them. Yet I still haven't heard of an actual case where and ID proponent has been fired. None were put up in Expelled. Do you have some source I'm unfamiliar with?

Smutterfly

Micheal Moore's movies encourage his audience to think his way, and while I think he's kind of a douche, he's a gifted film maker and he DOES report the facts.

As the OP noted, Expelled doesn't even put forth facts. It puts forth distortions and outright lies.

Smutterfly

The ones who are complaining about that are the ones who would have lied or declined interviews altogether. At least Ben Stein got some honesty out of them first.

Not true. Most of those interviewed said if they knew they were being interviewed for a pro-ID film, they would have been even more honest and critical. Thus, the claims that they were merely trying to "get honest answers" is bunk.

Smutterfly

The movie wasn't meant to convert you to ID, it was meant to show the discrimination against ID supporters.

Again, what discrimination? No one in the movie was honestly shown to be discriminated against for ID views. Rather, every single one was chastized for other reasons. Most likely due to the [******** intellectual dishonesty they commonly embody.

Smutterfly

Why don't people GET it? EVOLUTION AND INTELLIGENT DESIGN AREN'T MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE.

Um, yes they are. ID's entire foundation is "evolution is insufficient to explain X, thus God Designer". It explicitly rules out evolution as a satisfactory answer.

Smutterfly

No, they were fired for mentioning ID.

Source please?

Smutterfly

I believe in intelligent design as far this: something (I don't believe in JHVH, so in my case it would be the Goddess) decided to implement evolution. I feel that it is too elegant to have ben random chance. That's just me, and I know a lot of people would disagree. I call it, "Intelligent Evolution."
Both sides hate me because I'm not firmly in one camp or the other. I'm to accepting and ecumenical for them.

Actually, I don't know any evolution supporter that would have a real problem with that as long as you admitted this is a philosophical argument and not a scientific one. You might also get chastised for using an argument from ignorance in there too though....

Smutterfly

Part of the problem with pure ID is that it ISN'T science, and creationists are trying to stuff it into that box marked "Science." It just isn't gona happen.

Exactly. So why should the scientific community put up with hacks that try to claim that ID is science? We shouldn't and we don't.

Trorbes

* Richard Sternberg was never fired for publishing pro-ID material. He was nearing the end of his "employment (He held a voluntary position as editor) and his stay was extended several years after the incident.
* Caroline Crocker finished teaching her course after the complaints. Further, she was teaching demonstrably false material and deviating from her curriculum.
* There is no evidence of Pamela Winnick being blacklisted, and has continued her career in journalism despite her questionable integrity as a journalist.

You forgot Gonzalez who wasn't fired, but simply denied tenure. Also not based on his ID stance (although that was a part of the issue), but rather for his lack of publications and failure to procure grants or mentor students.

[Trorbes]

VoijaRisa

Trorbes

* Richard Sternberg was never fired for publishing pro-ID material. He was nearing the end of his "employment (He held a voluntary position as editor) and his stay was extended several years after the incident.
* Caroline Crocker finished teaching her course after the complaints. Further, she was teaching demonstrably false material and deviating from her curriculum.
* There is no evidence of Pamela Winnick being blacklisted, and has continued her career in journalism despite her questionable integrity as a journalist.

You forgot Gonzalez who wasn't fired, but simply denied tenure. Also not based on his ID stance (although that was a part of the issue), but rather for his lack of publications and failure to procure grants or mentor students.

I was only listing people whose jobs were "threatened" by their belief in ID. I didn't feel denial of tenure counted as such.

[VoijaRisa]

Trorbes

I was only listing people whose jobs were "threatened" by their belief in ID. I didn't feel denial of tenure counted as such.

Well, her certainly quit his job after that and the IDiots are using his as their new favourite martyr....