Evolution, Entropy, the Big Bang, and the Second Law

[Redem]

Pasty Angsty Teenager

Redem

Pasty Angsty Teenager

I'm confused. Is this an attack on a specific group of people for their beliefs?

It's a response to a specific group of people who make false (some unknowingly and some in full knowledge that they're liars) claims about a part of science, and try to use it to undermine the theory of evolution.

Is this really the place for that? I imagine one could get banned for singling out a specific group and making claims against their claims; it's a form of extreme intolerance especially in the way he posed this with such phrases as "Ignorant Creationist". I see no one saying Satanism is a crock. Perhaps I should get on this?

It's not intolerance to call liars liars. Nor to correct people when they make factually incorrect claims.

As for Satanism, it is a crock, but it's one that's ignorably small. Creationists are not a small group, and they make damn sure we can't affords to ignore them. (See recent trials such as Dover vs Kitzmiller.)

[Dodge Beast]

Ah, finally...you deign to come from on high and respond.

What you wrote is a direct misrepresentation of what mr. Hovind actually said. You changed the subject and altered the intent of the phrase, and by doing so, you have represented yourself as dishonest.

"Since you already know the phrase, I won't bother to look for it" is a cop out. I know exactly to which I refer, and I think you do, too...but if you think those of us who believe in Creation Science are dishonest enough to choke on our own non-credibility, I can certainly see your wanting to further that appearence by taking a quip and spinning to your advantage.

I rate that right up there with any moron who'd be dumb enough to compare Muslim fanaticism (flying planes into buildings) with all other branches of religion.

That is the exact same thing as hearing, "you're confusing evolution with the big bang".

And it's interesting that I'm supposedly a "troll" now, when I made a single post that had the power to get three kids sniping and barking at me. Oh, well. Click Ignore, and as they say online "don't feed the trolls".

And when you make a thread that specifically calls out to Creationists, yes, you are inviting people who have a faith-based view, most often steeped in the science-world viewed through the lens of the Bible, Torah, and even the Qu'ran.

It may not specifically ask "what's your faith", but it seeks to belittle those who place their belief in something other than the views of a man like Darwin.

I'm glad I could give you all a chance to do what it appears you seem to love best: stroking e-gos and hearing yourselves talk.

I'm sure the pleasure is all yours. Enjoy being a giant on the landscape of Gaia, as it appears that is what suits your fancies best.

See you, kiddies. May a Creator you don't appear believe in, bless you all anyway. smile

[Friendly Merchant]

Redem

Pasty Angsty Teenager

Redem

Pasty Angsty Teenager

I'm confused. Is this an attack on a specific group of people for their beliefs?

It's a response to a specific group of people who make false (some unknowingly and some in full knowledge that they're liars) claims about a part of science, and try to use it to undermine the theory of evolution.

Is this really the place for that? I imagine one could get banned for singling out a specific group and making claims against their claims; it's a form of extreme intolerance especially in the way he posed this with such phrases as "Ignorant Creationist". I see no one saying Satanism is a crock. Perhaps I should get on this?

It's not intolerance to call liars liars. Nor to correct people when they make factually incorrect claims.

As for Satanism, it is a crock, but it's one that's ignorably small. Creationists are not a small group, and they make damn sure we can't affords to ignore them. (See recent trials such as Dover vs Kitzmiller.)

I see. So why not discuss the trials? I am sure the population on Gaia that will see this and change is relatively small, much like those Satanists you choose to ignore.

[Redem]

Pasty Angsty Teenager

Redem

Pasty Angsty Teenager

Redem

Pasty Angsty Teenager

I'm confused. Is this an attack on a specific group of people for their beliefs?

It's a response to a specific group of people who make false (some unknowingly and some in full knowledge that they're liars) claims about a part of science, and try to use it to undermine the theory of evolution.

Is this really the place for that? I imagine one could get banned for singling out a specific group and making claims against their claims; it's a form of extreme intolerance especially in the way he posed this with such phrases as "Ignorant Creationist". I see no one saying Satanism is a crock. Perhaps I should get on this?

It's not intolerance to call liars liars. Nor to correct people when they make factually incorrect claims.

As for Satanism, it is a crock, but it's one that's ignorably small. Creationists are not a small group, and they make damn sure we can't affords to ignore them. (See recent trials such as Dover vs Kitzmiller.)

I see. So why not discuss the trials? I am sure the population on Gaia that will see this and change is relatively small, much like those Satanists you choose to ignore.

They have been discussed. This thread is one in a series of megaposts on various subjects created by Voija.

[Katherine1]

Dodge Beast

Ah, finally...you deign to come from on high and respond.

What you wrote is a direct misrepresentation of what mr. Hovind actually said. You changed the subject and altered the intent of the phrase, and by doing so, you have represented yourself as dishonest.

"Since you already know the phrase, I won't bother to look for it" is a cop out. I know exactly to which I refer, and I think you do, too...but if you think those of us who believe in Creation Science are dishonest enough to choke on our own non-credibility, I can certainly see your wanting to further that appearence by taking a quip and spinning to your advantage.

I rate that right up there with any moron who'd be dumb enough to compare Muslim fanaticism (flying planes into buildings) with all other branches of religion.

That is the exact same thing as hearing, "you're confusing evolution with the big bang".

And it's interesting that I'm supposedly a "troll" now, when I made a single post that had the power to get three kids sniping and barking at me. Oh, well. Click Ignore, and as they say online "don't feed the trolls".

And when you make a thread that specifically calls out to Creationists, yes, you are inviting people who have a faith-based view, most often steeped in the science-world viewed through the lens of the Bible, Torah, and even the Qu'ran.

It may not specifically ask "what's your faith", but it seeks to belittle those who place their belief in something other than the views of a man like Darwin.

I'm glad I could give you all a chance to do what it appears you seem to love best: stroking e-gos and hearing yourselves talk.

I'm sure the pleasure is all yours. Enjoy being a giant on the landscape of Gaia, as it appears that is what suits your fancies best.

See you, kiddies. May a Creator you don't appear believe in, bless you all anyway. smile

So, you're just going to ignore all the evidence you've been shown and dodge around responding to it, then?

[Jaaten Syric]

Katherine1

So, you're just going to ignore all the evidence you've been shown and dodge around responding to it, then?

...You have to ask? Op...damn rhetorical questions...

[Lord Setar]

Dodge Beast

Ah, finally...you deign to come from on high and respond.

Because we obviously spend all our time watching this thread and can be expected to respond within ten seconds.

Dodge Beast

"Since you already know the phrase, I won't bother to look for it" is a cop out. I know exactly to which I refer, and I think you do, too...but if you think those of us who believe in Creation Science are dishonest enough to choke on our own non-credibility, I can certainly see your wanting to further that appearence by taking a quip and spinning to your advantage.

I rate that right up there with any moron who'd be dumb enough to compare Muslim fanaticism (flying planes into buildings) with all other branches of religion.

There you go making claims again. Where is your evidence for creation?

Dodge Beast

That is the exact same thing as hearing, "you're confusing evolution with the big bang".

Except that the two are not the same. They're in different branches of science - Evolution is biology, the Big Bang is cosmology. They're mutually irrelevant.

Dodge Beast

And when you make a thread that specifically calls out to Creationists, yes, you are inviting people who have a faith-based view, most often steeped in the science-world viewed through the lens of the Bible, Torah, and even the Qu'ran.

You're misinterpreting the thread. We're calling out the people who say that creationism is science. You know, guys like Hovind and Behe and Dembski.

Dodge Beast

It may not specifically ask "what's your faith", but it seeks to belittle those who place their belief in something other than the views of a man like Darwin.

There you go with your fancy little delusions again, Trite. We're asking you for evidence behind your major claim of creation being science. Provide some.

[LtEarthworm]

Dodge Beast

vipr230

“You have yet to provide a single fact.”

I don’t provide anything because I am not here to debate evolutionism. For the umpteenth time.

Quote:

Extended Discussion: this forum is for you to have in-depth discussions and debates on a variety of specific topics.

wat

[Stolen Serenity]

It's the attack of the text walls!!

Yeah... Good job, but, is this aimed at creationists? I don't think they'll read this..

Ta

[Dipped_In_Octane]

Quote:

However, there is an even more fundamental flaw with the argument as it is presented, that obfusticates even the part of the Second Law that they do use. To understand this, let's again look at an example. If we take a look at water at a molecular level, it's rather disordered. The arrangement of the molecules in regards to one another has no rhyme or reason.

The only thing I see wrong with your arguement is this part. Water DOES have order. If i remember correctly its called polorization. That is even though water's structure are supposedly neutral, it isnt. One end has a slight positive charge while the other has a slight negative.
See drawing sad 0 = oxygen 8 =2 hydrogen)

+ 08 -

Now with the slight charge they are able to form slight bonds to form something like:

+08-+08-+08-+08-+08-+08-+08 -

Given its very similar to magnitizing a piece of metal. However the bond is alot weaker.

Thats the reason water forms dropplets.

[Pure Evil Inc]

Quote:

Thats the reason water forms dropplets.

That and surface tension.

Anway, my view on the second law of thermodynamics in relation to creation is that according to the most believed model the Big Bang (strangely not a 'bang' per-say) started as a singularity in space ie a neat little ultra-dense, ultra-energised atom and expanded. Basically, the atom leaked and stained the nice clean table-cloth of space. Are we seeing something here? Singularity (order) ---> universe (disorder). Thus the second law of thermodynamics can apply to the big bang theory.

[VoijaRisa]

Dodge Beast

Ah, finally...you deign to come from on high and respond.

My computer has had issues dealing with Gaia for several days now for some odd reason which is why it's taken me so long to respond.

Dodge Beast

What you wrote is a direct misrepresentation of what mr. Hovind actually said. You changed the subject and altered the intent of the phrase

No. What I posted was what he said. You were the one that tried to pull the old switcheroo by changing the subject and the intent.

As I pointed out, Hovind was using the same argument that you've been spewing for quite some time now: Life via evolution (which he and you presume is godless) means no meaning and that there would be no morals apart from God.

That is the statement Hovind makes repeatedly. Claiming that grandchildren being a blessing is the subject only shows how dishonest you are.

Dodge Beast

"Since you already know the phrase, I won't bother to look for it" is a cop out

Then I'll be happy to send you the several hundred megabytes of files and allow you to look for it yourself.

Dodge Beast

you are inviting people who have a faith-based view, most often steeped in the science-world viewed through the lens of the Bible, Torah, and even the Qu'ran.

You're right. I am inviting them. I'm inviting them to reply to the topic at hand: The second law as it applies to evolution and entropy. I'm inviting them to defend how, when they continually use it as "proof against evolution" and I show how it doesn't hold water, they can justify using it. As of yet, no creationist has even bothered trying to argue against that point (yet the 2nd law argument is a favorite of Hovind's).

Dodge Beast

It may not specifically ask "what's your faith", but it seeks to belittle those who place their belief in something other than the views of a man like Darwin.

Bullshit. It's not meant to denegrate faith in any manner but rather to address a flagrant distortion and lie promulgated by creationists as dishonest as your personal hero: Hovind.

[Dipped_In_Octane]

The_Shadow_Of_Revenge

Quote:

Thats the reason water forms dropplets.

That and surface tension.

Anway, my view on the second law of thermodynamics in relation to creation is that according to the most believed model the Big Bang (strangely not a 'bang' per-say) started as a singularity in space ie a neat little ultra-dense, ultra-energised atom and expanded. Basically, the atom leaked and stained the nice clean table-cloth of space. Are we seeing something here? Singularity (order) ---& universe (disorder). Thus the second law of thermodynamics can apply to the big bang theory.

Yeah, that too.

Oh I also forgot to mention that when you observe an frozen ice crystal, it also shows patterns, again another evidence of water haveing some sort of order.

[Professor Indiana Jones]

As a person well versed on the subject of both science AND religion, this is all I have to say on this matter.

To Christians and other religious sects:
Religion is a faith based construct. It means you believe your religion despite the fact that others say it's not truthful or that it's false. God is not tangible, nor are his works and actions, at least not by the scientific sense of the term, and you really shouldn't want him to be.

If God is a spiritual being, then don't cheapen him by trying to find him using science. Don't argue with people who have chosen their own belief system based on empirical evidence. True faith is not something you should need to justify with a textbook. As a believer myself, I don't want the purely theological idea of creation being taught in a biological science class.

Stop trying to make religion into science. Religion is not a science, it's a spiritual choice, that should be enough for you people without trying to rain on Science's parade. Creation is not science. It's a personal spiritual belief.

To Athiests/Scientists/People who act like internet tough-guys and jack off to threads about the non-existence of god:
You are almost as much to blame in this as the religious people, and here's why. Rather than accept the fact that somebody has decided to view things in a different light than you do, you choose to instead hound and belittle them for their choices, believing yourselves to be more enlightened or intelligent because of the fact that you've weighed the facts and rejected the existence of a god or a creator.

Fair enough, however, there are also those who haven't weighed the facts and rejected god or a creator, and just chosen to reject them flat out. Just as there are religious people who have decided to do the same thing. A different viewpoint does not a more intelligent person make. You simply view the world differently, and that's fair, but it doesn't make you any more superior. In the end all you've really accomplished is... well nothing really.

Except calling genuine believers ignorant and foolish, despite the fact that they've done you no harm. In essence, bullying people's beliefs just as much as they can bully yours.

In the end, neither of you is any better than the other, so shut the hell up and stop posting these irritating s**t-storm threats.

Jesus Christ...