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Christien Chalfant
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for the government to come up with a way to cover everyone and attempt to make it more efficient?


Government never makes anything more efficient.
Milton Friedman: "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand”


Haha good quote. I agree. It would be nice if they could become more efficient, and hopefully one day they will. America is known for its inefficiency.
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Initiate_Sacred_Demise
Christien Chalfant
Initiate_Sacred_Demise
for the government to come up with a way to cover everyone and attempt to make it more efficient?


Government never makes anything more efficient.
Milton Friedman: "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand”


Haha good quote. I agree. It would be nice if they could become more efficient, and hopefully one day they will. America is known for its inefficiency.


American government is known for it's inefficiency, but American Free Market Economy is predominantly known for it's efficiency. Hence the Golden Era of the 1800's.
The Economy only became more inefficient with government becoming involved. Prolonging the Great Depression in cahoots with the Federal Reserve, Minimum Wage Laws, Advocating Unions, etc.
Christien Chalfant
Initiate_Sacred_Demise
Christien Chalfant
Initiate_Sacred_Demise
for the government to come up with a way to cover everyone and attempt to make it more efficient?


Government never makes anything more efficient.
Milton Friedman: "If you put the federal government in charge of the Sahara Desert, in 5 years there'd be a shortage of sand”


Haha good quote. I agree. It would be nice if they could become more efficient, and hopefully one day they will. America is known for its inefficiency.


American government is known for it's inefficiency, but American Free Market Economy is predominantly known for it's efficiency. Hence the Golden Era of the 1800's.
The Economy only became more inefficient with government becoming involved. Prolonging the Great Depression in cahoots with the Federal Reserve, Minimum Wage Laws, Advocating Unions, etc.


Efficient, yes, but those models make a lot of untrue assumptions, such as everyone is logical, or full employment in some. Also, then you have to find the middle of the road for efficiency and humanity. For instance, fair treatment of the labor force. It is much more efficient to pay them as little as possible and offer no benefits and bark orders, but then they rebel and strike which causes unions and minimum wage laws to protect them so they can be decently happy. Efficiency in the short term is different than in the long term and the middle class is who we need to be most efficient as a country, not just efficiency for companies.
low iq 111's avatar

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^^ Generally agreed. The original version was a pretty good bill before it got ripped apart to appease Republicans (who wound up voting against it anyway). The version that got signed will still help a lot.

Come to think of it, Hilary Clinton's version (12 years ago, when Bill was in office) would have helped, if that bill hadn't gotten bogged down with the right-to-sue details.


Can you please explain the opposition towards universal health care? As far as I've understood, people seem to want the right to not have health care... Which while understandable in a purely theoretical sense, but makes no practical sense at all.


i actively try to stay healthy, i save my money for emergency situations, even if i did get into some extreme illness or injury i would just consider myself unlucky: i have don't have any problem with dying, basically, at least at this point. if i had kids i would try to stay alive for them but after that i don't want to live to be so old

so with all of that said you can see how i am the type of person who doesn't have a strong urge to go handing some insurance company money for "health care"

i'm just providing an example here so you can see how not all people are motivated into what you call "health care"

so what would you say to that?
low iq 111's avatar

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I think it's ridiculous that America doesn't already have universal health care. I can't get over the fact that in the US, if you get a cancer diagnosis, if you don't have healthcare, you lose your house to pay for treatment. And if you do have healthcare, it's probably through work, so you can't leave work to take the treatment without losing health cover, and if you do, then you won't be able to get health care again, because no one who wants to hire you. That's ******** up.

Meanwhile, in every other first world country, we have universal healthcare, and the world hasn't imploded. And if you want extra cover, and have some extra money, you have the option to buy private healthcare.

Personally I use healthcare all the freaking time, and would probably be dead if the government wasn't paying for a large percentage of it.


i think it's ridiculous that you feel entitled to a house and cancer treatment.

yurop likes to brag about giving everyone healthcare but they always forget that a large part of their economy is supported by people who are basically slave laborers in other countries.
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low iq 111
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^^ Generally agreed. The original version was a pretty good bill before it got ripped apart to appease Republicans (who wound up voting against it anyway). The version that got signed will still help a lot.

Come to think of it, Hilary Clinton's version (12 years ago, when Bill was in office) would have helped, if that bill hadn't gotten bogged down with the right-to-sue details.


Can you please explain the opposition towards universal health care? As far as I've understood, people seem to want the right to not have health care... Which while understandable in a purely theoretical sense, but makes no practical sense at all.


i actively try to stay healthy, i save my money for emergency situations, even if i did get into some extreme illness or injury i would just consider myself unlucky: i have don't have any problem with dying, basically, at least at this point. if i had kids i would try to stay alive for them but after that i don't want to live to be so old

so with all of that said you can see how i am the type of person who doesn't have a strong urge to go handing some insurance company money for "health care"

i'm just providing an example here so you can see how not all people are motivated into what you call "health care"

so what would you say to that?


That sometimes s**t happens, and you don't want to be refused care because you can't afford it, or because you aren't covered by insurance.
Prince Ikari 's avatar

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Personally, I do NOT believe that anyone has a universal right to healthcare. Just as no one has a universal right to a home, a job, food and water. This sense that people feel they are entitled to healthcare regardless of who pays for it is destructive. Yes everyone regardless of their political leanings want everyone to have the opportunity to obtain affordable healthcare. I do not know anyone who is disputing that. The differences lie in what policies can be implemented in order to achieve that end result. The political right wants more competition in the private healthcare market, and the political left wants to scrap the market all together and let the government provide healthcare. I believe that the later is NOT the best way to achieve universal access.

The government that can provide for your healthcare can just as easily take it away when you put too much burden onto the system. Not too mention if the government is covering all the costs, people will abuse the system and go to the hospital for every little thing knowing they do not have to pay for it. And the United States is much different compared to all of the other countries which have government-run healthcare. I vehemently oppose the welfare state, but in Nordic countries for example, where they have very large welfare states, the people who receive the welfare actually work and contribute to the tax base that funds the welfare. In the United States, those on government programs choose not to work or contribute anything to the system while taking out all of the benefits. We have a segment of the population now that lives solely off the teat of the United States government.

And where would that money even come from for an entirely new entitlement program? Half of the American population no longer pays any taxes. And in countries with government-run healthcare, taxes are high. Countries like Norway and Scotland rely on revenue from oil drilling to pay for their expansive welfare states, while other countries fund theirs through high levels of progressive taxation and redistribution of wealth. The wealth is leaving those countries though, and eventually the oil will run out. Europe is already tearing itself apart because many of the EU member-states can no longer afford to pay for all of these benefits. Look at Greece. If we were to institute government-run healthcare, we would end up the same way Greece has become. A country where no one pays taxes, and the government gives out more and more perks to the people till the debt incurred implodes and crashes everything. And you cannot just print more money, as this would lead to hyperinflation and destroy the dollar.

Let us not forget the fact that Americans are less healthier than our counterparts overseas which contributes enormously to our healthcare costs. I have Crohn's Disease, and my medical costs are through the roof at times. I am an unemployed college student and I still have medical bills I am trying to pay off from years ago. All of you young people who are so big on wanting the government to give you free healthcare, be warned you will have to pay an arm and a leg once you finish college and have a stable job to pay for people like me. And considering most of you want to live in big progressive cities with a high costs of living, good luck. Couple that with inflation and you will be living out on the street before too long when food and energy prices soar.

I do however believe that the United States can have top of the line health coverage and access for everyone. Just that the overly-bureaucratic, expensive, and slow-delivery government-run (single-payer) system is not the way to go. We in the United States have the best healthcare in the world. We can see doctors easily without any huge waits, we have high rates at detecting and curing cancers in early stages. All of the major medical technological advancements are thanks to the United States. Our system however is just too expensive!

What I believe we need to do in the United States is increase competition within the healthcare market, coupled with some major reforms. The first is to completely open up the marketplace. Make health insurers all over the United States finally have to compete with one another. Break up the health insurance monopolies in each state that keep us stuck in the same expensive plans. The perfect example of doing this would be the automotive industry. The auto companies compete nationwide to offer us the best product possible. The most reliable car, with all of the latest technological and safety features, solid gas mileage, all at the best price possible. The companies who do this sell the most cars. The ones that don't eventually close down. This would cause the health insurance companies to have to offer the best coverage at the most affordable price. And as the prices go down over time, more and more Americans will be able to buy into the system, expanding coverage, and costs all Americans less in the long-run. And buy plans anywhere in the United States that best fit their needs, instead of under Obamacare, making them have to pay more for extra coverage they do not even need.

Make sure health insurers cannot discriminate against people with preexisting conditions or raise their premiums for getting sick. That is an area I have personally had trouble with before. Allow workers to take their health insurance with them when they leave, so that they do not have to stay at jobs they hate all for the health insurance. Allow tax credits to lower and middle class families to help them purchase quality health insurance that covers their needs. Expand health savings accounts. Allow for the creation of a national pool that allows businesses to work together to insure their workers. We need medical malpractice reform too, to get rid of frivolous lawsuits that add extra costs onto the system.

The market is in my view the most cost-effective way we will ever achieve universal healthcare access. Lets move away from all this talk of a bloated healthcare system like Canada or the UK and move to one like Switzerland has. Switzerland uses the market forces to provide private, affordable, high-quality health coverage to its people at 40% less per capita than the United States. Their system requires that each citizens has health insurance, but have lots of plans to choose from for obtaining that. And they have universal health coverage. Certain policies that lower the costs for consumers if they get the needed check-ups and screenings. They also have a national pool in which all of the insurance companies contribute, to cover for any heavy losses.

I am still doing my research but I would love to see the United States use a market-driven model that provides affordable, high-quality health insurance to all Americans, that does not rely on big government, does not matter where you are employed, and does not give by payouts to large pharmaceutical companies. All of which Obamacare unfortunately does. If Obama really wanted to cement his legacy, he would allow for his law to be repealed, start over with a clean slate, and work with Congress to get a bill passed with overwhelming support from both sides, that will finally enact strong reforms that do not rely solely on the government. This is an issue I am passionate about.
low iq 111's avatar

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^^ Generally agreed. The original version was a pretty good bill before it got ripped apart to appease Republicans (who wound up voting against it anyway). The version that got signed will still help a lot.

Come to think of it, Hilary Clinton's version (12 years ago, when Bill was in office) would have helped, if that bill hadn't gotten bogged down with the right-to-sue details.


Can you please explain the opposition towards universal health care? As far as I've understood, people seem to want the right to not have health care... Which while understandable in a purely theoretical sense, but makes no practical sense at all.


i actively try to stay healthy, i save my money for emergency situations, even if i did get into some extreme illness or injury i would just consider myself unlucky: i have don't have any problem with dying, basically, at least at this point. if i had kids i would try to stay alive for them but after that i don't want to live to be so old

so with all of that said you can see how i am the type of person who doesn't have a strong urge to go handing some insurance company money for "health care"

i'm just providing an example here so you can see how not all people are motivated into what you call "health care"

so what would you say to that?


That sometimes s**t happens, and you don't want to be refused care because you can't afford it, or because you aren't covered by insurance.


uh, you are putting opinions in my mouth because i said the opposite of that. did you even read what you were replying to?
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I have healthcare through my dads work, because the farm I work on isn't big enough to have a fulltime person and all the legal benefits. So Meh..

But I did find out that my Healthcare tax keeps going up and up. I don't mind if it's going to people who really need it...But (and here comes the hate) I'm Conservative Independent/Republican so I think that those that rely on it because they can and not work as hard are the problem. I dislike government hand outs and lived out of my car rather then take hand outs like foodstamps and other supplements. It makes me proud to choose not to take the handouts leaving it for those that are riddled with health problems like cerebral palsy, and other big health problems like that...

Smoking pot with a green card and taking handouts because you are lazy are what ruin these programs for the actual needy and what drive up the cost for the taxpayers who have to pay for it are what annoys me. So until you can fix the human condition the programs won't work how they are intended.. I also found out that soon yothey can take more money out of your already taxed money to force you to pay your money for you health insurance..if I can't afford it I don't want to be forced to have it.
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low iq 111
I AM R U
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^^ Generally agreed. The original version was a pretty good bill before it got ripped apart to appease Republicans (who wound up voting against it anyway). The version that got signed will still help a lot.

Come to think of it, Hilary Clinton's version (12 years ago, when Bill was in office) would have helped, if that bill hadn't gotten bogged down with the right-to-sue details.


Can you please explain the opposition towards universal health care? As far as I've understood, people seem to want the right to not have health care... Which while understandable in a purely theoretical sense, but makes no practical sense at all.


i actively try to stay healthy, i save my money for emergency situations, even if i did get into some extreme illness or injury i would just consider myself unlucky: i have don't have any problem with dying, basically, at least at this point. if i had kids i would try to stay alive for them but after that i don't want to live to be so old

so with all of that said you can see how i am the type of person who doesn't have a strong urge to go handing some insurance company money for "health care"

i'm just providing an example here so you can see how not all people are motivated into what you call "health care"

so what would you say to that?


That sometimes s**t happens, and you don't want to be refused care because you can't afford it, or because you aren't covered by insurance.


uh, you are putting opinions in my mouth because i said the opposite of that. did you even read what you were replying to?


no, I'm giving my opinion - you asked for a response to what you said, and I gave one. My use of the word "you" may have confused you, I meant it in a general, none specific sense... Substitute "one" in there and that would give my intention...

to reiterate, its great that you have money saved in case of a health emergency, but a number of emergencies in a row could strain that. Also, I know you said you'd be prepared to die, but others may not have that reaction to the news that they have cancer, for example.

and while you say you try to stay healthy, there are often factors that are outside our control which can negatively impact our health...
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I think it's ridiculous that America doesn't already have universal health care. I can't get over the fact that in the US, if you get a cancer diagnosis, if you don't have healthcare, you lose your house to pay for treatment. And if you do have healthcare, it's probably through work, so you can't leave work to take the treatment without losing health cover, and if you do, then you won't be able to get health care again, because no one who wants to hire you. That's ******** up.

Meanwhile, in every other first world country, we have universal healthcare, and the world hasn't imploded. And if you want extra cover, and have some extra money, you have the option to buy private healthcare.

Personally I use healthcare all the freaking time, and would probably be dead if the government wasn't paying for a large percentage of it.


i think it's ridiculous that you feel entitled to a house and cancer treatment.

yurop likes to brag about giving everyone healthcare but they always forget that a large part of their economy is supported by people who are basically slave laborers in other countries.


So anyone who can't afford to pay the USA's ridiculously inflated medical treatment prices deserves to die homeless because they got sick due to no fault of the own?

And how do you mean Europe's economy is supported by slave labourers? If you mean importing goods from countries with questionable workers rights/ child labour, America does exactly the same.
from blue to
I could agree the government needs to get more efficient, but I don't think it should be providing health care to everyone (least of all doing so using the corrupt crony capitalist system as the delivery method). Really I don't think the government should be doing anything that requires that it force people to give it money to fund it. Taxation is theft -- nothing built on theft is good.


It makes a trip to the hospital affordable for those who are considered working poor such as myself. My current job offers "health insurance" but it costs so much that I cannot afford it due to bills I am responsible for. The way you talk makes me think you already have health insurance. I could be wrong though.
from blue to's avatar

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from blue to
I could agree the government needs to get more efficient, but I don't think it should be providing health care to everyone (least of all doing so using the corrupt crony capitalist system as the delivery method). Really I don't think the government should be doing anything that requires that it force people to give it money to fund it. Taxation is theft -- nothing built on theft is good.


It makes a trip to the hospital affordable for those who are considered working poor such as myself. My current job offers "health insurance" but it costs so much that I cannot afford it due to bills I am responsible for. The way you talk makes me think you already have health insurance. I could be wrong though.

You're right. I've been without before, and I know it's a risky position to be in. I just don't see government as a valid answer, at least not the way it operates now.
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America sounds so Victorian- Where only the rich are entitled to live and the poor (who a majority of do prob work hard,... Not everyone jobless wants to be)... Well the poor are just fodder for the machines of the rich.

It's a catch 22. If the poor who work can't afford insurance, and so can't pay medical bills. They get sick and have to leave the workforce and look to the government to survive while getting sicker and sicker. It maybe an ignorant opinion but a lot of the opinions on here are.

Just makes sense that to keep a country running you need a workforce. If the rich have to pay a bit. And the poor have to pay a bit too... So be it.

From an outside eye the way American politics works is to fight tooth and nail to oppose any change whatsoever proposed by either party. Even if it's for the greater good of a country and her people. But that's all politics.

My own has a public system and private for those who choose it. There are benefits for going private. I'm on a minimum waged job and am healthy. But I don't mind paying taxes that go to help others. I don't have children or a car (I walk most places too) but my taxes go to education and roads aswell. I don't mind as it benefits me in a roundabout way and without it I would be jobless and starving.
What's the point of making healthcare available "for everyone" when there are Platinum, Gold, Silver, and Bronze Packages? That's not egalitarian. If I was a CEO of a multinational corporation, I would want my employees to be in the best possible condition and that would demand they have the same health care standards and choices I myself would be happy with. Healthcare should not be an Olympic competition between the rich and the poor. And if you can't afford the best of everything for everyone, let the people decide for themselves what they want to spend their savings on. Some people will value dental care or optical over a breast cancer screening. Some will value plastic surgery over a hearing test. If you can't make your healthcare system equal for everyone, then stop telling people what they should have, and what they should have to pay for. Not everyone wants to spend their annual pain killer savings on the fees for "routine checkups" or a ride on the scanning machines.

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