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Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
chainmailleman
goedril
chainmailleman
Jessi Danger


You have also said equality is impossible. Thus you can't reasonably say your for it. If the feminism you believe in can't push for equality why are you claiming it does? Or even should when you previously admitted it is a lie.

I didn't say equality was impossible. I said the movement that claims equality is actually not practicing what it claims to preach.


Because Feminism was never about equality. Ever. It's about power. Who has control.

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

Chains? Where is this coming from? I don't think she means she wants females to rule or control males... at least what I think she is saying is she wants females to have the same amount of importance and ability in society.


The roles and importance too society? What roles to men have that women don't have or are somehow prevented from attaining?

I will note that no law under the books that govern our land prevent us from doing anything we set our heart to do. So what exactly is making us unequal?


It's mostly a social thing, which actually has a pretty big impact. We're expected to conform to our society's expectations and constructs, and when we go against them there's some push back from society.
HMS Thunder Child
goedril
Prince Ikari
When it comes to women, I put them into three categories.

The first is those women belonging to the feminist movement. In my view the feminist movement is very left-wing politically, very pro-choice and pro-abortion, and essentially are a bunch of man-haters. Those feminists are in most cases single women either in their early 20s or in their old age, ones who refuse to marry because they see it as a misogynistic structure bent on keeping women down. They are more likely to become activists, such as being associated with groups like FEMEN, use birth control and demand it be free, and use radical means to achieve equality. The sole achievement of the feminists is the legalization of abortion. Lesbianism is also a small but major part of the feminists movement.

The second group is those women belonging to the women's suffragist movement. Women's suffragists vary politically, and can include women from the right, center, or left. These women do not have the same harsh, radical, man-hating rhetoric that dominates the feminist movement. Women's suffragists as opposed to feminists, choose to work with their male counterparts who are sympathetic to their plight. These women champion marriage and the family unit, while at the same time pushing to ensure women are treated equally in all parts of life. These women are for the most part pro-life (but can be pro-choice), can be married or single, and have helped achieve the greatest accomplishments for women, notably helping women gain the right to vote, and increasing women's property rights and employment opportunities. Susan B. Anthony being the most iconic of the women's suffragists.

The third and final group is the women who do not associate with either movement. They may have sympathies to both, but choose to already seem themselves as equals to men and do not focus on trying to divide themselves with men along gender lines. Some of these women want to continue seeing great strides for women, others are not that concerned at all. They can vary all over the board when it comes to age, political affiliation, views on women, and the like. Most women would probably fit into this category.

What makes you put feminists and "women's suffragists" in different categories? Both want equality for women. You don't seem to know much about feminism and how diverse a movement it actually is.
[Informative]

Ikari is a racist, misogynist homophobe. They don't have a clue about anything.

Ah, ok. Thanks, that explains that.
x_DivineDesire_x
Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
chainmailleman
goedril

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

Chains? Where is this coming from? I don't think she means she wants females to rule or control males... at least what I think she is saying is she wants females to have the same amount of importance and ability in society.


The roles and importance too society? What roles to men have that women don't have or are somehow prevented from attaining?

I will note that no law under the books that govern our land prevent us from doing anything we set our heart to do. So what exactly is making us unequal?

There is no law that is a problem. It is social issues. We don't see it, but it is there.
I guess I can see it from your perspective where there is no law to stop us from getting what we want ...but there are a lot of obstacles.

For example... cooking is gender for women right? Cooking is considered to be more feminine however the career field of being chief is more centered on men.

Also the technology field... very masculine centered as well. Some people might say..."But nothing is stopping women from going into that field! Also since women are scarce in this field it works toward their advantage!" True it does sort of work to their advantage. However imagine being a female going through classes where every other student in that class is male. What happens if you don't do well in that class? you feel bad and discouraged from pursing a career in the technology field...or maybe you will have those other students not want to socialize with you since it would be a little strange. I was in a class like this in high-school. This was a computer networking class. My computer science teacher (a different class) even told us that she knows that women are rarely seen in a field like this. Then once you graduate and get a job...your boss may just hire you so that the statics of women compared to men will look better...and he will pay you a lot less then everyone else.


First, why would being in a class with mostly boys and dong bad in that class cause me to be anymore discouraged then if one of the boys failed in the same class? I am one of very few girls in my geology classes. I've even failed one, yet it hasn't caused me any more discouragement then if a boy failed. I don't see exactly where your going with this.

Second, In a class full of boys, if the boys don't want to socialize with you your either a freshmen in high school or your rather unpleasent and give off a fairly unfriendly aura. In geology some of the super science nerds are excited there is a single girl interested in rocks as much as they are.

Third, I'd say the "obstacles," are of our own making and our own design.
funwithforkz
Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
chainmailleman
goedril

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

Chains? Where is this coming from? I don't think she means she wants females to rule or control males... at least what I think she is saying is she wants females to have the same amount of importance and ability in society.


The roles and importance too society? What roles to men have that women don't have or are somehow prevented from attaining?

I will note that no law under the books that govern our land prevent us from doing anything we set our heart to do. So what exactly is making us unequal?


It's mostly a social thing, which actually has a pretty big impact. We're expected to conform to our society's expectations and constructs, and when we go against them there's some push back from society.


How exactly?

Care to explain?
Jessi Danger
funwithforkz
Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
chainmailleman
goedril

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

Chains? Where is this coming from? I don't think she means she wants females to rule or control males... at least what I think she is saying is she wants females to have the same amount of importance and ability in society.


The roles and importance too society? What roles to men have that women don't have or are somehow prevented from attaining?

I will note that no law under the books that govern our land prevent us from doing anything we set our heart to do. So what exactly is making us unequal?


It's mostly a social thing, which actually has a pretty big impact. We're expected to conform to our society's expectations and constructs, and when we go against them there's some push back from society.


How exactly?

Care to explain?


Sure. I'm not claiming to be an expert or anything on the topic, but it seems to me that if there are certain expectations for how a person should act that they would have a more difficult time working against those expectations. Unfortunately there are ideas of how men and women should behave.

For example, we live in a society where traditionally men would go to work and women would stay at home. During WWII women took over the jobs that the men had left behind when they went to fight the war. When the men returned the women were expected to go back to their duties as house wives. Some of them didn't want to though, and continued working, but they were paid far less than what men were paid, and were discriminated against in the work place, or were outright fired to make room for the men returning home.

There are also expectations set up for men. When we don't fit the image of the provider and protector we come under criticism. If I were to go out tomorrow doing something as meaningless as wearing a dress I'd probably be mocked. Even though it really doesn't effect anyone's life in any significant way I'm still doing something that isn't considered normal by the culture I live in.
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Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
Jessi Danger
x_DivineDesire_x
chainmailleman
goedril

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

Chains? Where is this coming from? I don't think she means she wants females to rule or control males... at least what I think she is saying is she wants females to have the same amount of importance and ability in society.


The roles and importance too society? What roles to men have that women don't have or are somehow prevented from attaining?

I will note that no law under the books that govern our land prevent us from doing anything we set our heart to do. So what exactly is making us unequal?

There is no law that is a problem. It is social issues. We don't see it, but it is there.
I guess I can see it from your perspective where there is no law to stop us from getting what we want ...but there are a lot of obstacles.

For example... cooking is gender for women right? Cooking is considered to be more feminine however the career field of being chief is more centered on men.

Also the technology field... very masculine centered as well. Some people might say..."But nothing is stopping women from going into that field! Also since women are scarce in this field it works toward their advantage!" True it does sort of work to their advantage. However imagine being a female going through classes where every other student in that class is male. What happens if you don't do well in that class? you feel bad and discouraged from pursing a career in the technology field...or maybe you will have those other students not want to socialize with you since it would be a little strange. I was in a class like this in high-school. This was a computer networking class. My computer science teacher (a different class) even told us that she knows that women are rarely seen in a field like this. Then once you graduate and get a job...your boss may just hire you so that the statics of women compared to men will look better...and he will pay you a lot less then everyone else.


First, why would being in a class with mostly boys and dong bad in that class cause me to be anymore discouraged then if one of the boys failed in the same class? I am one of very few girls in my geology classes. I've even failed one, yet it hasn't caused me any more discouragement then if a boy failed. I don't see exactly where your going with this.

Second, In a class full of boys, if the boys don't want to socialize with you your either a freshmen in high school or your rather unpleasant and give off a fairly unfriendly aura. In geology some of the super science nerds are excited there is a single girl interested in rocks as much as they are.

Third, I'd say the "obstacles," are of our own making and our own design.

So you wouldn't feel discouraged if you were doing bad in the class and felt like everyone else had a better handle on it? My computer networking teacher would always look and me and asked if I understood the lesson we just taught. He singled me out.

I was a senior with another senior...the rest of the class was juniors, and I can assure you I wasn't disliked.

Maybe you don't mind having so much special attention given to you, but I do because I felt like the teacher thought I was a retard... when I failed a test...he gave me a second chance at it...I didn't tell him I was sick or anything...I said that I didn't study and basically didn't care because my grade was solid already. All the guys in that class noticed this as well. From that they said some jokes that were seemingly harmless, but it led to jokes about on a old teacher having the hots for me. I don't know how other girls would react to this, but I was disgusted at the least.

When a test was around the corner and we were all playing jeopardy...my classmates asked me to ask the teacher to give us extra credit if we won. Along the lines of what one of them said was, "Oh my god ...he likes you so just ask him." If I asked him and the extra credit was given...yay better grades but the jokes would be increased... and I would feel like I have lost some pride.

Maybe this was just a horrible class because the teacher was old and had more traditional views and beliefs...however so many parts of society is still like this. I cannot imagine finding a job and my boss uses women for statistics and treat them like they are stupid. I hope I don't find a job like that.
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goedril
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Jessi Danger


You have also said equality is impossible. Thus you can't reasonably say your for it. If the feminism you believe in can't push for equality why are you claiming it does? Or even should when you previously admitted it is a lie.

I didn't say equality was impossible. I said the movement that claims equality is actually not practicing what it claims to preach.


Because Feminism was never about equality. Ever. It's about power. Who has control.

Of course it's about power. Men have more power than women. Feminists want women to have equal power. We want society to be structured in a way that doesn't favor one gender over another. If you think it's about one gender controlling the other, you don't understand what feminism is.


Wow....just wow.

How far do you have to push it? Until men are in chains?

What? Did you read what I wrote? I want to push it until men and women have equal power in society. How would that put men in chains?


Who has custody of the kids? Who controls the majority spending in the household? Who does the marketing world cater to? Who has a batter leg to stand on in the legal system? Who demands equal pay even though they physically cannot compete with the production of their gender counterpart? I read just fine. You have the power already. You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry. You have the power.

Think about it.

So again, How far do you have to push it before you realize your a power hungry, greedy individual?
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        _______________________________________

          Egalitarianism > Feminism
          I hear a lot of the time feminists who claim to want equality, in which case, they are egalitarians, and not feminists. The reason there is so much controversy and general disdain towards feminism is that people go and claim these things that their very label doesn't match up with.
x_DivineDesire_x
There are a lot of myths about feminism...and I have only one on my mind right now. I admit that I could have believed in this myth; however, after reading more into it for a class ...

The first myth I want to bring to light is...

Quote:
Myth:
All feminists are pro-abortion.

Wrong. Not all feminists are pro-abortion. It depends on their moral beliefs.

I saw a topic that basically generalized all feminists to be pro-abortion.

I am sure there are many other things people assume a feminist to be. I cannot say I am annoyed because that would make me feel like I was being unfair... since I didn't know this before.

Anyways...I just used wiki to give you the definition of feminism.

Feminism-is a collection of movements and ideologies aimed at defining, establishing, and defending equal political, economic, and social rights for women.

Notice the word here they used is defining?
Personally I believe they don't have to define it...as defining it may lead to problems...like there is now with a huge amount of people misunderstand feminism.


I was going to get all "that's bullshit no one who's anti-choice is a feminist" and then I realized oh no wait that's not what it says.

It's true, not all feminist are pro-abortion. Pro-choice =/= pro-abortion - many people who are pro-choice are so because they consider it a necessary lesser evil than forcing people to carry unwanted pregnancies to term.
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chainmailleman
You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry.


Unless you have an IQ of 10 or a rabid animal that needs to be put down all people are in control of those. I'd suggest if you don't have control you're not a person as that only leaves instinct.
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The Herald of War
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You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry.


Unless you have an IQ of 10 or a rabid animal that needs to be put down all people are in control of those. I'd suggest if you don't have control you're not a person as that only leaves instinct.


Went just a little over your head.
chainmailleman


Who has custody of the kids?

Touche, for the most part.
Quote:
Who controls the majority spending in the household?

That depends on the individual household.
Quote:
Who does the marketing world cater to?

There's sexualized half-naked women everywhere; you tell me.
Quote:
Who has a batter leg to stand on in the legal system?

That depends. There is a lot of inequality in the legal system. Since men are seen as more of a serious threat, they tend to get harsher sentences. I think that needs to change too. But if you think inequality in the legal system only adversely affects men though, here's a counterexample: try being female and reporting a rape. It's a humiliating process in which no one is on your side and everyone is eager to blame you, what you were wearing, how much you were drinking, etc.
Quote:
Who demands equal pay even though they physically cannot compete with the production of their gender counterpart?

Except the pay gap isn't just for jobs that involve lots of manual labor. It's across the board, and it's systemic rather than just individuals being paid less because they aren't as competent. There have been plenty of studies on it.
Quote:
I read just fine. You have the power already. You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry. You have the power.

Yeah, at least if you're living in the right part of the world. And so do you. Yay

Quote:
Think about it.

So again, How far do you have to push it before you realize your a power hungry, greedy individual?

If wanting society to take me seriously as a human being makes me power hungry and greedy, fine.

Edit: Also, who controls politics? Last I checked, 81% of Congress was male and the US had never had a female president.
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chainmailleman
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You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry.


Unless you have an IQ of 10 or a rabid animal that needs to be put down all people are in control of those. I'd suggest if you don't have control you're not a person as that only leaves instinct.


Went just a little over your head.


Not at all. I'm just not stupid enough to forget that such things are only done with the agreement of both parties. At least in socially acceptable and non-criminal contexts
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The Herald of War
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chainmailleman
You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry.


Unless you have an IQ of 10 or a rabid animal that needs to be put down all people are in control of those. I'd suggest if you don't have control you're not a person as that only leaves instinct.


Went just a little over your head.


Not at all. I'm just not stupid enough to forget that such things are only done with the agreement of both parties. At least in socially acceptable and non-criminal contexts


But you are that stupid to assume that this information is unknown to me.

Women have the power to say no....but they don't.

Men have the power to say no.....but why would they?

The mating game is centered around one thing. The Uterus. Women have control. 100% of the time.
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chainmailleman


Who has custody of the kids?

Touche, for the most part.
Quote:
Who controls the majority spending in the household?

That depends on the individual household.
Quote:
Who does the marketing world cater to?

There's sexualized half-naked women everywhere; you tell me.
Quote:
Who has a batter leg to stand on in the legal system?

That depends. There is a lot of inequality in the legal system. Since men are seen as more of a serious threat, they tend to get harsher sentences. I think that needs to change too. But if you think inequality in the legal system only adversely affects men though, here's a counterexample: try being female and reporting a rape. It's a humiliating process in which no one is on your side and everyone is eager to blame you, what you were wearing, how much you were drinking, etc.
Quote:
Who demands equal pay even though they physically cannot compete with the production of their gender counterpart?

Except the pay gap isn't just for jobs that involve lots of manual labor. It's across the board, and it's systemic rather than just individuals being paid less because they aren't as competent. There have been plenty of studies on it.
Quote:
I read just fine. You have the power already. You have control over everything, who you date, who you sleep with, who you marry. You have the power.

Yeah, at least if you're living in the right part of the world. And so do you. Yay

Quote:
Think about it.

So again, How far do you have to push it before you realize your a power hungry, greedy individual?

If wanting society to take me seriously as a human being makes me power hungry and greedy, fine.

Edit: Also, who controls politics? Last I checked, 81% of Congress was male and the US had never had a female president.


Point in case

BTW politics are dominated by women. Feinstein and Pelosi. Nuff said.

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