does no one lie in the middle of pro-choice/pro-life?

[Griffin Kaige]

Wraith of Azrael

River Melody

So...a woman who would be put into poverty by having a child should be forced to have the child she can't afford? All right then. We do disagree on that because I think it's wrong to force a woman and a child to live in poverty.

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Do you have even an inkling of what the foster care and adoption system is like? There are literally millions world wide waiting to have families of their own. Why in deity's name would you think that those millions do not matter? Why does something that cannot feel matter more to you than those already alone, unwanted, and unloved?

[Griffin Kaige]

icicle weapon

Doctor George Kapland

Wraith of Azrael

River Melody

So...a woman who would be put into poverty by having a child should be forced to have the child she can't afford? All right then. We do disagree on that because I think it's wrong to force a woman and a child to live in poverty.

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Lmfao. Considering the fact that most orphanages are over crowded, the chances of adoption are around 1.8%, and that orphanages are both under-staffed, under-funded, and they recommend that parents who wish to put their children up for adoption take care of them past a certain month part if they don't have an adoptive parent ready on the birthday.

Yes, yes you are saying they should take care of them or put the child on a street.


YWhich is both inhumane, cruel, stupid, and it causes undo harm, stress, and problems for the mother. Hormonal changes are part of the birth, and you're saying "******** your body, mental wellbeing, and your income (because guess what, it costs money to have a ******** kid and stay in the hospital), I say you should have a kid. I am the supreme ruler and dictator on what you get to do with your body"

Orphanages are for older kids.

No, they're not. they are for any and all abandoned, thrown away, or left without parents regardless of age. What world are you living in? This isn't Oliver Twist, darling, this is the real world.

icicle weapon

People want to adopt babies.

No, people want to adopt white, no special needs newborn females. Big difference. Why are you supporting an ageist, sexist, and racist system?

Black babies, boys less likely to be adopted.

icicle weapon

With homosexuality now accepted in society,

Now I know you're living in a fantasy world. You definitely aren't living in the real world.

Thirty-three states do NOT protect LGBT students in anti-bullying laws.

Taxi driver kicks gay couple out of cab after kissing and tells them they're going to hell.

LGBT applicants less likely to be called back for interviews with federal contractors.

icicle weapon

many gay couples want children, and their best option is to adopt.

Sure, in theory we can adopt. The reality, depending on where you live, can be very different. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that same-sex marriage is not legal everywhere and many adoption agencies require the potential adoptive parents to be married.

icicle weapon

Some babies get adopted. The ones who are white, female, with no special needs.

There, that is more accurate to the reality.

icicle weapon

It's kids who get abandoned later that have the problem.

This is only partly true. However, you are advocating that they be tossed aside as unimportant and that is an awful way to think of children.

icicle weapon

And there are no orphanages;

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Because all it took was two seconds to find out you're full of it. Links to many orphanages, world wide, including places like Australia, Israel, Dominican Republic, oh, and look, there are 27 listed for the US but noo,there aren't any orphanages.

icicle weapon

there is foster care.

I have already proven you wrong.

icicle weapon

And the majority of people in foster care are there because they were wrongfully taken from their homes and put there.

Except that the experts in the field say you are wrong. The top ten reasons children are placed into foster care, the first three of which are physical abuse, sexual abuse, and neglect. Those things cannot be faked.

[Griffin Kaige]

mnhnrnnyng

River Melody

mnhnrnnyng

River Melody

mnhnrnnyng

River Melody

I agree that you shouldn't abort due to gender, but nowhere was that mentioned in my post so don't jump down my goddamn throat about it, kay?

throughout this I've mentioned how the pro-choice people got angry when the government changed the abortion law so that you can't get one after the sex of the baby can be determined, and this was due to people killing off girls.

and my first post said the middle was where one believes aborting due to financial situation, sex of the baby, and certain disabilities is cruel.
there are subsidies to help people financially

Which still has nothing to do with my original post. If you're going to argue with someone, argue with someone on the opposing side instead of bitching at someone who already actually agrees with you. It makes you look stupid.

you think aborting a baby because of money is a legit reason for abortion. that makes you extreme, so you don't agree with me.

So...a woman who would be put into poverty by having a child should be forced to have the child she can't afford? All right then. We do disagree on that because I think it's wrong to force a woman and a child to live in poverty.

There are government grants to help with that; there is also adoption.

Children who have had everything handed to them on a silver platter and have no knowledge of the real world shouldn't talk about subjects such as this without properly educating themselves. I grew up with three siblings and both my parents worked minimum wage jobs. Until I was in the 8th grade we lived in extreme poverty despite having 'government grants' as you put them. We got food stamps, but because both my parents worked they did not qualify for any other help. the food stamps were enough to buy food to last a family of six less than three weeks. My mother had to hit every food bank she could find, every month, to supplement it, and often she and my father survived on one meal a day so the four of us could eat. My father walked eight miles one way five days a week during the times they could only afford for one of them to take public transit, which was almost every month, just to get to and from work. He left long before we were up for school and came home long after we'd gone to bed, most nights. Our rundown house was cold, drafty, and often we were without electricity because my parents had to rob Peter to pay Paul and then didn't have any way to pay Peter back. Do you honestly think that children should be forced to live under those conditions all because you think you're superior to others and think you have some deity given right to tell others how to live their lives? How arrogant can you be, child?

[Griffin Kaige]

pbtdkg

River Melody

Wraith of Azrael

River Melody

So...a woman who would be put into poverty by having a child should be forced to have the child she can't afford? All right then. We do disagree on that because I think it's wrong to force a woman and a child to live in poverty.

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Because adoption is always the answer for everything, right? rolleyes
Let's talk about all the s**t that actually happens to a womans body when going through with a pregnancy and childbirth. You would be forcing a woman to carry a child that she doesn't want anyway, she's going to be sick for months, she's going to be in pain, swelling, and possibly run into some complications. One of my friends, when pregnant with her third child, was diagnosed with Bell's Palsy - one side of her face was frozen. It wasn't permanent, but she says that it still goes numb from time to time. It was due to her pregnancy. That's just one thing. Many other things can and have happened. Nobody should be forced to do something with their body that they don't want to.
Also, pregnancy itself is expensive. Doctors visits, taking off work (for the doctor visits and the actual birth). It costs money to even be pregnant.
So basically, you want women to go through a lot of pain and expenses to give an unwanted kid up or to keep an unwanted child? Nah, I say they should be allowed to abort if they want.
Bodily autonomy; something that is given to dead people, but not living women.

The chance of having a complication like that during pregnancy is the same or lower than the risk of having a complication from the abortion procedure.

That is untrue. You have a greater risk of complications due to pregnancy and childbirth than you do from abortion.

Quote:

bortion has a scary reputation, regardless of whether you’re for or against it. But the perception that it’s a high-risk procedure isn’t rooted in truth, according to new research.

Although more than half of states counsel women on the risks of abortion, a study published online Monday in Obstetrics & Gynecology finds that a legal abortion is actually far safer than giving birth.

The research discovered that women are actually 14 times more likely to die during or after delivery than as a result of complications from abortion. “There’s a lot of stigma surrounding abortion,” says Elizabeth Nash, who tracks state policies on reproductive health for the N.Y.-based Guttmacher Institute, a pro-choice reproductive health research group. “This study is telling us it’s a lot safer than having a baby.”

~~~~~~~~

The researchers, from Gynuity Health Projects in New York City and the University of North Carolina School of Medicine, looked at figures on live births and deaths linked to pregnancy or abortions, then juxtaposed that data with Guttmacher’s estimates on the number of legal abortions in the U.S.

Between 1998 and 2005, one woman died in childbirth for every 11,000 babies born, compared to one of 167,000 women who died due to abortion complications. It’s probably not too surprising considering that women are pregnant for nine months, leaving far more opportunity for complications to arise than in an individual procedure.
Why abortion is less risky than childbirth.

[Griffin Kaige]

pbtdkg

Nobody Famous

Honestly, I wonder if it isn't that pro-choice IS the middle ground. I mean, think about it, pro-life is an extreme in that abortion is wrong and murder and that the unborn babies need to always be allowed to be born. Pro-choice is just that, about CHOICE, and it is up to the individual to decide, even if that decision is to go through with the pregnancy. Since pro-life is an extreme saying pregnancy must be carried to term, the true opposite extreme of that would not be pro-choice (which comes off more as a middle ground that leaves it up to each person to choose for themselves) but pro-abortion in that all fetuses should be aborted, and I have yet to meet a person who actually feels that way.

That's what it means to be pro-life personal and pro-choice political. Maybe I wouldn't abort if I became pregnant, but that's not to say I should force others to do the same.

Yes, but if you read through all the posts in this thread, you will see that it is the people who label themselves as "pro-choice" who are being the most extreme, like the one who said she was middle but that it is okay to abort due to financial reasons,

That in no way makes her extreme. Those who have never lived through extreme poverty need to be forced to live that way for a year in order to gain a bit of understanding of what its like. then maybe they'd pull their heads out of their collective asses and stop acting like everyone has tens of thousands of dollars lying around to pay for medical bills.

[Griffin Kaige]

icicle weapon

Nobody Famous

icicle weapon

Nobody Famous

Honestly, I wonder if it isn't that pro-choice IS the middle ground. I mean, think about it, pro-life is an extreme in that abortion is wrong and murder and that the unborn babies need to always be allowed to be born. Pro-choice is just that, about CHOICE, and it is up to the individual to decide, even if that decision is to go through with the pregnancy. Since pro-life is an extreme saying pregnancy must be carried to term, the true opposite extreme of that would not be pro-choice (which comes off more as a middle ground that leaves it up to each person to choose for themselves) but pro-abortion in that all fetuses should be aborted, and I have yet to meet a person who actually feels that way.

That's what it means to be pro-life personal and pro-choice political. Maybe I wouldn't abort if I became pregnant, but that's not to say I should force others to do the same.

But everything you do is a choice.

Exactly. But the issue here is to what extent you should get to force your personal choice on other people or alternatively, to what extent other people should get to force their preference on you, especially with a topic as personal as this where both options (to abort or not to abort) have situations in which they would be appropriate or even downright necessary.

Pro-choice is pro-abortion.
That's why mnhnrnnyng is talking about a middle ground in this thread.

That is false. Pro-abortion means every pregnancy, wanted or not, should be aborted. Pro-choice is exactly that; pro women deciding if they want to be pregnant or not. Hence it being pro-choice.

Allowing women to choose is the middle ground. Treating women like they are less than human because they have a uterus is not a middle ground. That's as extreme as you can get.

[Griffin Kaige]

Delicate Sylveon

Lucky~9~Lives

slyveons

I do very much so.

How so?

Well, I agree it should be available and with most of the specifics but there are some blaringly obvious issues. Atleast in the United Kingdom, I do not know American law. For one you can have an abortion when you're over 20 weeks pregnant, seems blaring wrong to me, as children have survived outside the womb at that age before (Even if it is only for a few minutes sometimes). Really, a woman should know if she is pregnant or not by six weeks, it seems a little selfish to abort a child so late into the pregnancy unless they are severely disabled and you would be unable to care for them properly or you have some issues that would effect your ability to be a parent and your own health.

you are assuming that every single female is identical. They are not. My mother had four children, she did not know she was pregnant, each time, until she was almost 10 weeks along. Why? Because it takes time for the hormones to build up and she had always had sketchy periods, so when she was 'late' she thought nothing of it until she started feeling sick to her stomach. Then she went to the doctor and found out. You really should educate yourself and not listen to propaganda that says women know within a few weeks of conception.

[Griffin Kaige]

5th Dimension Morning

pbtdkg

5th Dimension Morning

I wouldn't call my position "in the middle", but I certainly don't think each side has it right, either.

I think that elective abortion shouldn't really be allowed unless it's REALLY early on, when there is no real chance of survival. that said, I have relunctantly accepted that roe vs wade's 20-week cut off is reasonable. I do think that medically necessary abortions should always be allowed, and I also highly support all forms of contraception (though I don't particularly trust all companies that manufacture some types of contraception, and worry about the negative health effects of some, as well as the corporate lobbyists of basically any corporation).

some would call this centrist, while others would want to lump me in as either a pro-lifer or a pro-choicer.

From what you've written, it seems to me you're in the middle.
Not all pro-life people are against contraceptives either.
While I am closer to pro-life on the spectrum, I am not against most forms of contraceptives. I am against most oral contraceptives, not because I am against birth control, but because I feel it is another way for Big Pharma to profit, and I believe it causes more damage to a woman's body that it does good.
I am all for condoms.

this is why I generally consider myself pro-life with an asterix.

Why, precisely, do you think so little of your own partner? I read about your pet in the BDSM thread, you are saying that she is worth less than a forming bit of cells? I will never understand the mentality that says women are worthless in comparison to a fetus.

[Eevee Max]

Griffin Kaige

Delicate Sylveon

Lucky~9~Lives

slyveons

I do very much so.

How so?

Well, I agree it should be available and with most of the specifics but there are some blaringly obvious issues. Atleast in the United Kingdom, I do not know American law. For one you can have an abortion when you're over 20 weeks pregnant, seems blaring wrong to me, as children have survived outside the womb at that age before (Even if it is only for a few minutes sometimes). Really, a woman should know if she is pregnant or not by six weeks, it seems a little selfish to abort a child so late into the pregnancy unless they are severely disabled and you would be unable to care for them properly or you have some issues that would effect your ability to be a parent and your own health.

you are assuming that every single female is identical. They are not. My mother had four children, she did not know she was pregnant, each time, until she was almost 10 weeks along. Why? Because it takes time for the hormones to build up and she had always had sketchy periods, so when she was 'late' she thought nothing of it until she started feeling sick to her stomach. Then she went to the doctor and found out. You really should educate yourself and not listen to propaganda that says women know within a few weeks of conception.

Well, I said should really. There are always exceptions. And I mostly meant because I would assume in that time you'd know due to missing your period (in most cases) and getting a test out of concern. I don't listen to propaganda, I was going off my own experiences. I often get anxious about being pregnant when I miss periods etc. I understand your Mother may not have missed any, or that there may of been some other issues surrounding that.

[icicle weapon]

Griffin Kaige

icicle weapon

Doctor George Kapland

Wraith of Azrael

River Melody

So...a woman who would be put into poverty by having a child should be forced to have the child she can't afford? All right then. We do disagree on that because I think it's wrong to force a woman and a child to live in poverty.

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Lmfao. Considering the fact that most orphanages are over crowded, the chances of adoption are around 1.8%, and that orphanages are both under-staffed, under-funded, and they recommend that parents who wish to put their children up for adoption take care of them past a certain month part if they don't have an adoptive parent ready on the birthday.

Yes, yes you are saying they should take care of them or put the child on a street.


YWhich is both inhumane, cruel, stupid, and it causes undo harm, stress, and problems for the mother. Hormonal changes are part of the birth, and you're saying "******** your body, mental wellbeing, and your income (because guess what, it costs money to have a ******** kid and stay in the hospital), I say you should have a kid. I am the supreme ruler and dictator on what you get to do with your body"

Orphanages are for older kids.

No, they're not. they are for any and all abandoned, thrown away, or left without parents regardless of age. What world are you living in? This isn't Oliver Twist, darling, this is the real world.

icicle weapon

People want to adopt babies.

No, people want to adopt white, no special needs newborn females. Big difference. Why are you supporting an ageist, sexist, and racist system?

Black babies, boys less likely to be adopted.

icicle weapon

With homosexuality now accepted in society,

Now I know you're living in a fantasy world. You definitely aren't living in the real world.

Thirty-three states do NOT protect LGBT students in anti-bullying laws.

Taxi driver kicks gay couple out of cab after kissing and tells them they're going to hell.

LGBT applicants less likely to be called back for interviews with federal contractors.

icicle weapon

many gay couples want children, and their best option is to adopt.

Sure, in theory we can adopt. The reality, depending on where you live, can be very different. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that same-sex marriage is not legal everywhere and many adoption agencies require the potential adoptive parents to be married.

icicle weapon

Some babies get adopted. The ones who are white, female, with no special needs.

There, that is more accurate to the reality.

icicle weapon

It's kids who get abandoned later that have the problem.

This is only partly true. However, you are advocating that they be tossed aside as unimportant and that is an awful way to think of children.

icicle weapon

And there are no orphanages;

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Because all it took was two seconds to find out you're full of it. Links to many orphanages, world wide, including places like Australia, Israel, Dominican Republic, oh, and look, there are 27 listed for the US but noo,there aren't any orphanages.

icicle weapon

there is foster care.

I have already proven you wrong.

icicle weapon

And the majority of people in foster care are there because they were wrongfully taken from their homes and put there.

Except that the experts in the field say you are wrong. The top ten reasons children are placed into foster care, the first three of which are physical abuse, sexual abuse, and neglect. Those things cannot be faked.

I live in Canada; that is what world I am from.
We don't have orphanages. We have foster homes and group homes, and most of the people there were wrongfully taken from their homes.
Gay marriage is legal across the country.

[5th Dimension Morning]

Griffin Kaige

5th Dimension Morning

pbtdkg

5th Dimension Morning

I wouldn't call my position "in the middle", but I certainly don't think each side has it right, either.

I think that elective abortion shouldn't really be allowed unless it's REALLY early on, when there is no real chance of survival. that said, I have relunctantly accepted that roe vs wade's 20-week cut off is reasonable. I do think that medically necessary abortions should always be allowed, and I also highly support all forms of contraception (though I don't particularly trust all companies that manufacture some types of contraception, and worry about the negative health effects of some, as well as the corporate lobbyists of basically any corporation).

some would call this centrist, while others would want to lump me in as either a pro-lifer or a pro-choicer.

From what you've written, it seems to me you're in the middle.
Not all pro-life people are against contraceptives either.
While I am closer to pro-life on the spectrum, I am not against most forms of contraceptives. I am against most oral contraceptives, not because I am against birth control, but because I feel it is another way for Big Pharma to profit, and I believe it causes more damage to a woman's body that it does good.
I am all for condoms.

this is why I generally consider myself pro-life with an asterix.

Why, precisely, do you think so little of your own partner? I read about your pet in the BDSM thread, you are saying that she is worth less than a forming bit of cells? I will never understand the mentality that says women are worthless in comparison to a fetus.

WHAT!? no, I'm not saying any such thing!! I am saying that they are both people and both worthe the same. I certainly wouldn't force her to have a baby that would kill her, or that would pose a serious risk to her health. and I sure as hell wouldn't advise for birthing a child that has a low chance of survival or who would be born with a condition that would mean suffering. and I DEFINITELY would not try to limit, restrict, or prevent in any way access to and use of contraceptives of nearly any kind.

but I happen to think that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. is that so wrong?

[Griffin Kaige]

icicle weapon

Griffin Kaige

icicle weapon

Doctor George Kapland

Wraith of Azrael

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Lmfao. Considering the fact that most orphanages are over crowded, the chances of adoption are around 1.8%, and that orphanages are both under-staffed, under-funded, and they recommend that parents who wish to put their children up for adoption take care of them past a certain month part if they don't have an adoptive parent ready on the birthday.

Yes, yes you are saying they should take care of them or put the child on a street.


YWhich is both inhumane, cruel, stupid, and it causes undo harm, stress, and problems for the mother. Hormonal changes are part of the birth, and you're saying "******** your body, mental wellbeing, and your income (because guess what, it costs money to have a ******** kid and stay in the hospital), I say you should have a kid. I am the supreme ruler and dictator on what you get to do with your body"

Orphanages are for older kids.

No, they're not. they are for any and all abandoned, thrown away, or left without parents regardless of age. What world are you living in? This isn't Oliver Twist, darling, this is the real world.

icicle weapon

People want to adopt babies.

No, people want to adopt white, no special needs newborn females. Big difference. Why are you supporting an ageist, sexist, and racist system?

Black babies, boys less likely to be adopted.

icicle weapon

With homosexuality now accepted in society,

Now I know you're living in a fantasy world. You definitely aren't living in the real world.

Thirty-three states do NOT protect LGBT students in anti-bullying laws.

Taxi driver kicks gay couple out of cab after kissing and tells them they're going to hell.

LGBT applicants less likely to be called back for interviews with federal contractors.

icicle weapon

many gay couples want children, and their best option is to adopt.

Sure, in theory we can adopt. The reality, depending on where you live, can be very different. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that same-sex marriage is not legal everywhere and many adoption agencies require the potential adoptive parents to be married.

icicle weapon

Some babies get adopted. The ones who are white, female, with no special needs.

There, that is more accurate to the reality.

icicle weapon

It's kids who get abandoned later that have the problem.

This is only partly true. However, you are advocating that they be tossed aside as unimportant and that is an awful way to think of children.

icicle weapon

And there are no orphanages;

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Because all it took was two seconds to find out you're full of it. Links to many orphanages, world wide, including places like Australia, Israel, Dominican Republic, oh, and look, there are 27 listed for the US but noo,there aren't any orphanages.

icicle weapon

there is foster care.

I have already proven you wrong.

icicle weapon

And the majority of people in foster care are there because they were wrongfully taken from their homes and put there.

Except that the experts in the field say you are wrong. The top ten reasons children are placed into foster care, the first three of which are physical abuse, sexual abuse, and neglect. Those things cannot be faked.

I live in Canada; that is what world I am from.
We don't have orphanages. We have foster homes and group homes, and most of the people there were wrongfully taken from their homes.
Gay marriage is legal across the country.

Oh, so you're ethnocentric and believe the only country that exists is Canada? I'm used to seeing that from Americans, but not Canadians.

I'm going to have to ask you to prove the bold though.

Oh, and by the way, you're lying about there being no orphanages in operation in the entire country of Canada.

List of orphanages in Canada with quite a few still in operation.

[Griffin Kaige]

5th Dimension Morning

Griffin Kaige

5th Dimension Morning

pbtdkg

5th Dimension Morning

I wouldn't call my position "in the middle", but I certainly don't think each side has it right, either.

I think that elective abortion shouldn't really be allowed unless it's REALLY early on, when there is no real chance of survival. that said, I have relunctantly accepted that roe vs wade's 20-week cut off is reasonable. I do think that medically necessary abortions should always be allowed, and I also highly support all forms of contraception (though I don't particularly trust all companies that manufacture some types of contraception, and worry about the negative health effects of some, as well as the corporate lobbyists of basically any corporation).

some would call this centrist, while others would want to lump me in as either a pro-lifer or a pro-choicer.

From what you've written, it seems to me you're in the middle.
Not all pro-life people are against contraceptives either.
While I am closer to pro-life on the spectrum, I am not against most forms of contraceptives. I am against most oral contraceptives, not because I am against birth control, but because I feel it is another way for Big Pharma to profit, and I believe it causes more damage to a woman's body that it does good.
I am all for condoms.

this is why I generally consider myself pro-life with an asterix.

Why, precisely, do you think so little of your own partner? I read about your pet in the BDSM thread, you are saying that she is worth less than a forming bit of cells? I will never understand the mentality that says women are worthless in comparison to a fetus.

WHAT!? no, I'm not saying any such thing!! I am saying that they are both people and both worthe the same. I certainly wouldn't force her to have a baby that would kill her, or that would pose a serious risk to her health. and I sure as hell wouldn't advise for birthing a child that has a low chance of survival or who would be born with a condition that would mean suffering. and I DEFINITELY would not try to limit, restrict, or prevent in any way access to and use of contraceptives of nearly any kind.

but I happen to think that abortion shouldn't be used as a form of birth control. is that so wrong?

And if she just simply does not want to be pregnant, period, what then? Will you do everything in your power to brow-beat her into keeping it because unless her life is in danger, her wants, her needs, and her desires are unimportant?

Do you know what birth control is? It controls.. birth. If you are so opposed to one form of it then why aren't you opposed to all forms of it? Anything that prevents the birth of a neonate is birth control. This includes abortion. I will never, ever understand the mentality that says 'using a woman's body against her will is bad if you're already born, but hey, as long as you're unborn use it against her will all you like'.

[CrysisMoon]

icicle weapon

Griffin Kaige

icicle weapon

Doctor George Kapland

Wraith of Azrael

I may be in the middle ground of this but I will say that this portrayal is dishonest.

Having a child does not require that you MUST take care of it, you can give it up for adoption or a safe haven.

Portraying it as abortion OR raising a child is a false dichotomy.

Lmfao. Considering the fact that most orphanages are over crowded, the chances of adoption are around 1.8%, and that orphanages are both under-staffed, under-funded, and they recommend that parents who wish to put their children up for adoption take care of them past a certain month part if they don't have an adoptive parent ready on the birthday.

Yes, yes you are saying they should take care of them or put the child on a street.


YWhich is both inhumane, cruel, stupid, and it causes undo harm, stress, and problems for the mother. Hormonal changes are part of the birth, and you're saying "******** your body, mental wellbeing, and your income (because guess what, it costs money to have a ******** kid and stay in the hospital), I say you should have a kid. I am the supreme ruler and dictator on what you get to do with your body"

Orphanages are for older kids.

No, they're not. they are for any and all abandoned, thrown away, or left without parents regardless of age. What world are you living in? This isn't Oliver Twist, darling, this is the real world.

icicle weapon

People want to adopt babies.

No, people want to adopt white, no special needs newborn females. Big difference. Why are you supporting an ageist, sexist, and racist system?

Black babies, boys less likely to be adopted.

icicle weapon

With homosexuality now accepted in society,

Now I know you're living in a fantasy world. You definitely aren't living in the real world.

Thirty-three states do NOT protect LGBT students in anti-bullying laws.

Taxi driver kicks gay couple out of cab after kissing and tells them they're going to hell.

LGBT applicants less likely to be called back for interviews with federal contractors.

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many gay couples want children, and their best option is to adopt.

Sure, in theory we can adopt. The reality, depending on where you live, can be very different. Oh, and lets not forget the fact that same-sex marriage is not legal everywhere and many adoption agencies require the potential adoptive parents to be married.

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Some babies get adopted. The ones who are white, female, with no special needs.

There, that is more accurate to the reality.

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It's kids who get abandoned later that have the problem.

This is only partly true. However, you are advocating that they be tossed aside as unimportant and that is an awful way to think of children.

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And there are no orphanages;

Oh really? Are you sure about that? Because all it took was two seconds to find out you're full of it. Links to many orphanages, world wide, including places like Australia, Israel, Dominican Republic, oh, and look, there are 27 listed for the US but noo,there aren't any orphanages.

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there is foster care.

I have already proven you wrong.

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And the majority of people in foster care are there because they were wrongfully taken from their homes and put there.

Except that the experts in the field say you are wrong. The top ten reasons children are placed into foster care, the first three of which are physical abuse, sexual abuse, and neglect. Those things cannot be faked.

I live in Canada; that is what world I am from.
We don't have orphanages. We have foster homes and group homes, and most of the people there were wrongfully taken from their homes.
Gay marriage is legal across the country.

Thank you so much for making us Canadians sound like we think so god damn highly of ourselves.
There are orphanages in Canada, they are most likely under a different naming.
Foster and/or group homes are not always as glamorous as made out to be. There are some shitty fosters and group homes around. And children put into the foster care/group home system, are usually put there for a valid reason. Whether it be the parents/parent can't afford to give the proper care needed, or they are taken from an abusive home. There is almost always a valid reason.
Sure gay marriage may be legal across Canada, but the LGBT community still gets s**t on plenty. We're not some harassment free country.
Do us a favor and get over yourself.