Da ebil guns...cuz we need to talk about them again.

[Plata Plomo y Sangre]

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Tactical Leg Sweep

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Keltoi Samurai

yes, weapons. at the time, that meant muskets, as muskets were what the people were understood to be allowed to keep, and also happened to be the pinnacle of man-portable military grade hardware.

so, from that, it's pretty safe to infer that in a world where the pinnacle of man-portable military-grade hardware is the musket, then by putting muskets in the hands of civilians shows a clear intent to give them access to the pinnacle of man-portable military grade hardware, correct?

No, it meant "weapons" then also. If it meant muskets, it would have stated muskets. Not to mention they were inferior weapons to rifles, unless mass produced thanks to a musket's better rate of fire and lower cost. The reason it stated "arms" was to be deliberately broad.

However, if one wishes to observe the modern circumstances under which a real, contemporary militia would operate? I'd argue those "arms" need to include artillery, air support, armour and anti-armour capability. Private citizen militias are clearly not allowed to own these items. Do you think they should be able to?

SCOTUS has already ruled that the 2nd amendment is not contingent upon service in a militia, if that's what you're getting.

Thanks for the information. Not being an American I'm not always clued in with what your Supreme Court has ruled on all matters. The gun debate is very downplayed here (mainly because such a debate is not at all desired by the British government).

No problem. I actually wasn't aware of the ruling myself until one of these debates and I stumbled upon it.

[Blind Guardian the 2nd]

Tactical Leg Sweep

Ok so ... get a gun? From what I'm understanding your point is, let's ban guns because I wouldn't want to have to face someone who has a gun without having one myself. Ignoring what I think is a pretty silly logic in and of itself, have you ever heard of zip guns? s**t, low level criminals are still able to operate with smuggled and modified firearms in places that have banned them like Japan, or where they're heavily restricted like your own UK. What makes you think that criminals would obey that law out of the others they choose to break? Yes, it might be harder to gain access to them and maybe you'd curb the non criminal, under the radar crazy who decides to go on a shooting rampage, but crime statistics show those people are outliers. The majority of people who are shooting others are not people with no criminal history.

Then you misunderstand me. I have already expressed my distaste for gun violence thanks to its ability to involve innocent bystanders more easily than other kinds, and the fact that a public gun market only ends up further arming criminals by adding fuel to the black market. As I know I am not going to eliminate violence, I would rather the police occupy themselves with preventing people from owning those weapons which further endanger the public, rather than devoting themselves pursuing people who have used those weapons to harm others or owned them illegally.

Of course I've heard of improvised firearms. However, the controlled market of firearms means that ammunition can cost as much as the guns themselves on the black market, and that no-one can purchase legal ammunition without certification. Regular police checks on firearm owners means that those who cannot account for the location of legally purchased rounds, or the location at which they were legally discharged, risk criminal investigation and conviction.

I know that the United Kingdom still has criminal elements who use improvised firearms. Do I however feel better that the firearms the majority of criminals have access to are not semi-automatic pistols with plentiful ammunition, but a single-shot piece of s**t which is likely to misfire, jam itself and have awful accuracy? Yes, I do.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

[Omorose Panya]

Tactical Leg Sweep

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Tactical Leg Sweep

And I was contending that even in that insane scenario, in order for the premise to be correct that conventional small arms would be useless, one would have to consider the incident in a vacuum free of economics and international relations. Otherwise, they wouldn't be. It would just make it a whole ******** of a lot worse, since we'd more than likely be fighting over access to WMDs.

I agree: the entire situation whereby the USA's citizenry needs a militia to stop their government from killing them all needs to take place in an environment without the confines of economy or international relations.

Essentially the only scenario I can envisage where it's the citizen militia that is necessary to prevent the death of all American citizens is one where they're already spraying you with anthrax spores from a giant, baby-powered tripod.

I think we both can agree that the people who honestly think something like that would happen are crazy.

Just to be clear, I was addressing the crazy spectrum of the argument that implies that the government is already taking extremely unrealistic actions in an economyless, international relationless alternate reality. In that case, I really do doubt that average citizens would have access to what they would need to fight back.

But this is already difficult to think about, let alone discuss, because of the sheer asininity of it.

[Blind Guardian the 2nd]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

The sale of materials used to produce powder charges for firearm ammunition is as tightly controlled as pre-produced ammunition itself in the UK. Again, it is restricted to those who own firearm licences.

You could very well have people producing weapons in the UK. However, judging from the prevalence of converted replica firearms intended to shoot blanks in criminal incidents, the practice of gunsmithing is very, very sparse.

[Vercingetorix VII]

Tyrannical governments don't spring from the ground fully formed. They exist, generally, because they're popular, at least with a large and influential enough population base to matter.

In other words, if we go into a realistic scenario where you need guns to defend yourself, it's as likely to be from your neighbors who also have guns as from men in uniforms and jackboots.

The easiest parallel to draw here in American history would be the American Indians defending themselves against American settlers; here the military was sometimes antagonistic, occasionally helpful, but it was really just the plain civilian white invaders that did most of the damage, and there numbers told.

Could also look at the "Southern Redemption" where blacks were subject to extreme terrorism, primarily by white Southern militias. There firearms were somewhat useful in helping to protect and preserve black families but as often as not it worked the other way; the KKK, White League etc. were more often better armed, and had numbers and the force of law to fall back on.

The point here just being that guns aren't magical wands that make tyranny or danger go away, and pushing laws to carry guns everywhere because you think they are, or approaching politics with the mindset that you're safe just so long as you can buy an automatic rifle, is foolishness. If you want to prevent tyranny and dictatorship you need to actually stand up for civil rights and promote national unity and tolerance. I know that's a difficult thing for some Republican voters.

[Wolf Nightshade]

I work for our local newspaper they have a sign up in the front of the building but I never come in through there no one who works there does. The sign in back is inside the building on the second door going to the offices. This is technically not legally binding it's not even posted at the right height. Personally I ignore all these signs I carry concealed and no one ever knows I have it. Once when I had to deliver a route in a nicer part of town I noticed someone had a sign on their front door to a house I laughed and about didn't deliver there because I was carrying my gun. I thought well when they call the paper tonight I will tell them sorry you will have to wait I was armed and seen your sign but then decided no I will get chewed out so whatever. Our city as soon as Kansas made it legal to carry went out and told businesses to put up signs they didn't tell them they had a choice so naturally everyone has a sign up. We have a city bus service that has only been around a few years and they to do not allow the carry of guns. I never use the bus but it frustrates me that our local government wont support the peoples legal right to carry protection. If I chose to ride the City Link because my car broke down I would have to disarm myself.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Old Blue Collar Joe

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

The sale of materials used to produce powder charges for firearm ammunition is as tightly controlled as pre-produced ammunition itself in the UK. Again, it is restricted to those who own firearm licences.

You could very well have people producing weapons in the UK. However, judging from the prevalence of converted replica firearms intended to shoot blanks in criminal incidents, the practice of gunsmithing is very, very sparse.

You forget about the IRA in Britain don't you?

You guys just want that to go away; nope, they never had guns, couldn't possibly get them into Britain.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Wolf Nightshade

I work for our local newspaper they have a sign up in the front of the building but I never come in through there no one who works there does. The sign in back is inside the building on the second door going to the offices. This is technically not legally binding it's not even posted at the right height. Personally I ignore all these signs I carry concealed and no one ever knows I have it. Once when I had to deliver a route in a nicer part of town I noticed someone had a sign on their front door to a house I laughed and about didn't deliver there because I was carrying my gun. I thought well when they call the paper tonight I will tell them sorry you will have to wait I was armed and seen your sign but then decided no I will get chewed out so whatever. Our city as soon as Kansas made it legal to carry went out and told businesses to put up signs they didn't tell them they had a choice so naturally everyone has a sign up. We have a city bus service that has only been around a few years and they to do not allow the carry of guns. I never use the bus but it frustrates me that our local government wont support the peoples legal right to carry protection. If I chose to ride the City Link because my car broke down I would have to disarm myself.

Have a local restaurant that I eat at regularly. Then, I just stopped. Manager ran into me at the store and asked why I stopped eating there once a week or more, sometimes with my entire family. Told him that they'd put up a gun free zone sign, and that he didn't want my business, so I took it elsewhere.
Funny thing, he gave me a coupon and told me I wasn't the only former customer he'd heard that from, and said to come in the next day for a free lunch. I did, and the sign was gone.
Seems they lost quite a few regulars when they put that sign up, as most of us who do CC refuse to go into a place where we're supposed to disarm.

[Wolf Nightshade]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wolf Nightshade

I work for our local newspaper they have a sign up in the front of the building but I never come in through there no one who works there does. The sign in back is inside the building on the second door going to the offices. This is technically not legally binding it's not even posted at the right height. Personally I ignore all these signs I carry concealed and no one ever knows I have it. Once when I had to deliver a route in a nicer part of town I noticed someone had a sign on their front door to a house I laughed and about didn't deliver there because I was carrying my gun. I thought well when they call the paper tonight I will tell them sorry you will have to wait I was armed and seen your sign but then decided no I will get chewed out so whatever. Our city as soon as Kansas made it legal to carry went out and told businesses to put up signs they didn't tell them they had a choice so naturally everyone has a sign up. We have a city bus service that has only been around a few years and they to do not allow the carry of guns. I never use the bus but it frustrates me that our local government wont support the peoples legal right to carry protection. If I chose to ride the City Link because my car broke down I would have to disarm myself.

Have a local restaurant that I eat at regularly. Then, I just stopped. Manager ran into me at the store and asked why I stopped eating there once a week or more, sometimes with my entire family. Told him that they'd put up a gun free zone sign, and that he didn't want my business, so I took it elsewhere.
Funny thing, he gave me a coupon and told me I wasn't the only former customer he'd heard that from, and said to come in the next day for a free lunch. I did, and the sign was gone.
Seems they lost quite a few regulars when they put that sign up, as most of us who do CC refuse to go into a place where we're supposed to disarm.

I wish there was more support here but unfortunately I don't think there is. I once took off my jacket at a restaurant while I had my gun. My stepmother was uncomfortable and I had to tell her it was legal. She just was afraid what others would think. I told her thats not my problem if others don't know the laws. She asked me to take it to the car I told her it doesn't leave my side while I have it with me. I keep a gun lock box in my car it has a wire that wraps around part of my seat to keep it from being taken out. I put it in there if I must but I tell people if I have my gun removing it from my holster is something I only do if I am getting ready to use it. There is minimal consequence for being caught here with your gun. So I don't worry about it much im not the one they should worry about. A bank in Dodge City was robbed awhile back fool bought a BB gun and didn't wear a mask. I would have shot his a** because I ignore the banks rule not to carry.

[Old Blue Collar Joe]

Wolf Nightshade

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wolf Nightshade

I work for our local newspaper they have a sign up in the front of the building but I never come in through there no one who works there does. The sign in back is inside the building on the second door going to the offices. This is technically not legally binding it's not even posted at the right height. Personally I ignore all these signs I carry concealed and no one ever knows I have it. Once when I had to deliver a route in a nicer part of town I noticed someone had a sign on their front door to a house I laughed and about didn't deliver there because I was carrying my gun. I thought well when they call the paper tonight I will tell them sorry you will have to wait I was armed and seen your sign but then decided no I will get chewed out so whatever. Our city as soon as Kansas made it legal to carry went out and told businesses to put up signs they didn't tell them they had a choice so naturally everyone has a sign up. We have a city bus service that has only been around a few years and they to do not allow the carry of guns. I never use the bus but it frustrates me that our local government wont support the peoples legal right to carry protection. If I chose to ride the City Link because my car broke down I would have to disarm myself.

Have a local restaurant that I eat at regularly. Then, I just stopped. Manager ran into me at the store and asked why I stopped eating there once a week or more, sometimes with my entire family. Told him that they'd put up a gun free zone sign, and that he didn't want my business, so I took it elsewhere.
Funny thing, he gave me a coupon and told me I wasn't the only former customer he'd heard that from, and said to come in the next day for a free lunch. I did, and the sign was gone.
Seems they lost quite a few regulars when they put that sign up, as most of us who do CC refuse to go into a place where we're supposed to disarm.

I wish there was more support here but unfortunately I don't think there is. I once took off my jacket at a restaurant while I had my gun. My stepmother was uncomfortable and I had to tell her it was legal. She just was afraid what others would think. I told her thats not my problem if others don't know the laws. She asked me to take it to the car I told her it doesn't leave my side while I have it with me. I keep a gun lock box in my car it has a wire that wraps around part of my seat to keep it from being taken out. I put it in there if I must but I tell people if I have my gun removing it from my holster is something I only do if I am getting ready to use it. There is minimal consequence for being caught here with your gun. So I don't worry about it much im not the one they should worry about. A bank in Dodge City was robbed awhile back fool bought a BB gun and didn't wear a mask. I would have shot his a** because I ignore the banks rule not to carry.

Not every bank has a no-carry rule. Granted, some states bar carrying in banks.
I don''t remove my sidearm, but I also don't advertise it. Most times no one even knows I'm carrying.

[The Living Force]

Suicidesoldier#1

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Old Blue Collar Joe

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

The sale of materials used to produce powder charges for firearm ammunition is as tightly controlled as pre-produced ammunition itself in the UK. Again, it is restricted to those who own firearm licences.

You could very well have people producing weapons in the UK. However, judging from the prevalence of converted replica firearms intended to shoot blanks in criminal incidents, the practice of gunsmithing is very, very sparse.

You forget about the IRA in Britain don't you?

You guys just want that to go away; nope, they never had guns, couldn't possibly get them into Britain.

Firearms laws in Ireland are a little more lax.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

The Living Force

Suicidesoldier#1

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Old Blue Collar Joe

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

The sale of materials used to produce powder charges for firearm ammunition is as tightly controlled as pre-produced ammunition itself in the UK. Again, it is restricted to those who own firearm licences.

You could very well have people producing weapons in the UK. However, judging from the prevalence of converted replica firearms intended to shoot blanks in criminal incidents, the practice of gunsmithing is very, very sparse.

You forget about the IRA in Britain don't you?

You guys just want that to go away; nope, they never had guns, couldn't possibly get them into Britain.

Firearms laws in Ireland are a little more lax.

And yet we see the distribution in Britain no doubt.

It forces one to question.

[Wolf Nightshade]

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wolf Nightshade

Old Blue Collar Joe

Wolf Nightshade

I work for our local newspaper they have a sign up in the front of the building but I never come in through there no one who works there does. The sign in back is inside the building on the second door going to the offices. This is technically not legally binding it's not even posted at the right height. Personally I ignore all these signs I carry concealed and no one ever knows I have it. Once when I had to deliver a route in a nicer part of town I noticed someone had a sign on their front door to a house I laughed and about didn't deliver there because I was carrying my gun. I thought well when they call the paper tonight I will tell them sorry you will have to wait I was armed and seen your sign but then decided no I will get chewed out so whatever. Our city as soon as Kansas made it legal to carry went out and told businesses to put up signs they didn't tell them they had a choice so naturally everyone has a sign up. We have a city bus service that has only been around a few years and they to do not allow the carry of guns. I never use the bus but it frustrates me that our local government wont support the peoples legal right to carry protection. If I chose to ride the City Link because my car broke down I would have to disarm myself.

Have a local restaurant that I eat at regularly. Then, I just stopped. Manager ran into me at the store and asked why I stopped eating there once a week or more, sometimes with my entire family. Told him that they'd put up a gun free zone sign, and that he didn't want my business, so I took it elsewhere.
Funny thing, he gave me a coupon and told me I wasn't the only former customer he'd heard that from, and said to come in the next day for a free lunch. I did, and the sign was gone.
Seems they lost quite a few regulars when they put that sign up, as most of us who do CC refuse to go into a place where we're supposed to disarm.

I wish there was more support here but unfortunately I don't think there is. I once took off my jacket at a restaurant while I had my gun. My stepmother was uncomfortable and I had to tell her it was legal. She just was afraid what others would think. I told her thats not my problem if others don't know the laws. She asked me to take it to the car I told her it doesn't leave my side while I have it with me. I keep a gun lock box in my car it has a wire that wraps around part of my seat to keep it from being taken out. I put it in there if I must but I tell people if I have my gun removing it from my holster is something I only do if I am getting ready to use it. There is minimal consequence for being caught here with your gun. So I don't worry about it much im not the one they should worry about. A bank in Dodge City was robbed awhile back fool bought a BB gun and didn't wear a mask. I would have shot his a** because I ignore the banks rule not to carry.

Not every bank has a no-carry rule. Granted, some states bar carrying in banks.
I don''t remove my sidearm, but I also don't advertise it. Most times no one even knows I'm carrying.

I don't go out of my way to tell others and don't care for open carry. I think many open carry people are showing off and are at high risk for attack. As my martial arts experience has taught me it's a bigger advantage if no one knows you are capable of defending yourself. You don't want others knowing what to expect and have them plan ahead. My dad thought he knew when I was carrying at first I was trying to figure out what I was doing so I moved it around a lot. Later he couldn't tell if I was or not. I carry a full sized Beretta 92FS in a cross draw fashion with an inside the waistband holster. I wear a leather vest or jacket that covers it. My bank has a place inside a grocery store I go there more than the main bank. They have a sign up but I ignore it they also see me a lot so I doubt they would care. Some people I meet think im a freak for the gun they don't understand nor care to. However I would risk my life to defend them because I have the ability to do so. These people for some reason think a cop is more responsible or qualified to carry than any other person. In fact I would bet more citizens outside law enforcement would out shoot a cop. Hell I seen cops who were shocked at what my friend owned. One was completely in awe over his Saiga 12.

[The Living Force]

Suicidesoldier#1

The Living Force

Suicidesoldier#1

Blind Guardian the 2nd

Old Blue Collar Joe

Where do folks get the idea that building a reliable firearm is extremely difficult or hard to do? If one has access to a mill, a lathe, a heating torch and some patience, one can make a very nice firearm.
Ammo is even easier to do.

The sale of materials used to produce powder charges for firearm ammunition is as tightly controlled as pre-produced ammunition itself in the UK. Again, it is restricted to those who own firearm licences.

You could very well have people producing weapons in the UK. However, judging from the prevalence of converted replica firearms intended to shoot blanks in criminal incidents, the practice of gunsmithing is very, very sparse.

You forget about the IRA in Britain don't you?

You guys just want that to go away; nope, they never had guns, couldn't possibly get them into Britain.

Firearms laws in Ireland are a little more lax.

And yet we see the distribution in Britain no doubt.

It forces one to question.

Maybe, "How hard is it to drive a car from Ireland to Northern Ireland and/or pilot a boat between Ireland and Scotland?"