Welcome to Gaia! ::

Blind Guardian the 2nd
You sound like someone with autistic tendencies (hence the lack of ability to read body language) who thinks he has come up with a world-beater in the form of already discovered cultural determinism.
Please, simply stop referring to it as to being Autistic, the fact of the matter is, Albert Einstein himself had this problem, the term "Autistic" has a reputation that causes people to refer to it as mental retardation, and considering that, it is quite idiotic considering the likes of Einstein and Newton (Though I must add that Newton's brain was not preserved, therefore the only basis for him being deemed as to having Asperger's is from the limited historical data that could be dug up on him and his social interactions and lack of understanding for other people and how they thought.)

Anyhow, referring to Asperger's syndrome so generically as to calling it Autism is in it's self a travesty considering the vast ignorance stating it as such promotes.

Those with Asperger's syndrome are most often able to think further outside the box than others, simply because they don't truly belong in the same box as others.

If you think back, Einstein failed Mathematics simply because he didn't do the problems the way they were trying to teach him to do them, instead he found a way he himself could understand them to be done through. The ironic fact here is they assumed he was cheating and copying the answer from the papers of others while writing a false path to in which the answer could be found through, however that was not the case, the case here was that he was using his own way to get the answers and though the teachers could not comprehend it, his answers were correct.

He was quite the class clown considering how little he was accepted, since it is an easy observation to make that people prefer lightheartedness as apposed to intellectual forms of entertainment, he came to feel that be trying to be funny, he'd have more of a chance for fitting in not to mention lessen his stress by making himself laugh every now and then.
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Votaro
Because the fallacy of conformity is often the fallacy of being "Sheeple". The psychology regarding the conformity rate simply reveals that it's effects are quite unstable and chaotic. For example the conformity to accept forms of unearned respect such as that in which is often given to a leader only leads to further stability of that person's power regardless of whether they are corrupt or not. Respect offers those whom receive it a certain amount of stability and in the long run, that stability equals out to power. Without virtues promoted properly such as for this case the virtue of defiance, proper defenses of such a thing will not be properly laced throughout societal thinking, therefore the probability for chaos verses a positive revolution are increased drastically. Some virtues can be taught while others must simply be inspired. In short, forms of conformity that embrace ignorances are dangerous and should not be tolerated nor promoted in any other ways.


Conformity is not a fallacy. Human unity creates greater internal group exchanges of resources and co-operation. It establishes exchange networks and alliance structures within cohesive groups, and this is a source of evolutionary advantage.

You are also managing to say a lot without saying anything. Your "example" goes nowhere. You have also assumed that leaders have not earned respect (which also assumes that leaders select themselves instead of being appointed, and also assumes that leaders cannot be challenged).

Also, you proclaiming culturally selected "virtues" as worth more than others is an effort in cultural objectivism, which is a wasted effort.

If anyone follows your bullshit, they'll be guilty of conformity than embraces ignorance.
Not all conformity is based on ignorance, so no, you are wrong there. The conformity that keeps it's self going due to ignorance on matters and people feeling comfortable with the "belonging" is the dangerous form.

Also, while you are stuck onto yourself, you fail to see what all i am saying, the fact of the matter here is that you've just agreed with the importance of two different virtues without realizing it. I put them in bold for you to read.

The fact that you didn't realize this only reveals that you in fact have not taken the time to study virtues enough to see what they have to offer.

Such ignorance reveals the flaw within the claim you are making regarding your own validity verse my validity.

Also, you automatically assume that I created these virtues, that too is quite ignorant, especially when all these virtues are universally acceptable.

http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

I present you with the resource to undo your state of ignorance regarding virtues, either accept the invitation or deny it, but either way, if you deny it, I'll not find any reason to take you seriously, nor will anyone else who knows where I am coming from .
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
I'm surprised you caught that, the thing is until people begin to conform to only what they aren't ignorant of, I've assessed it to be wise to promote "Training Wheels", it is in fact not conformity in general that is the problem, but in fact conformity imbued with ignorance


Then attack ignorance itself and don't muddy the waters of your argument with wasted words about not conforming which just makes you appear hypocritical.

The way you are speaking is to cry out that conforming is terrible and must be avoided, yet this is not actually your target; you want people to conform to the appropriate values. Your target it is ignorance: hit it. Tell us what ignorance is present, explain it nature, and hopefully, construct a case for how it might be solved or reduced.

Currently, your argument, with such a heavy focus on "not conforming" rather takes on a tone of insufferable whining from someone who thinks they are really cool for not doing so.
To reveal those whom are too under-analytical to see what my target is, well that is simply a path of deciding who's deductive skills are powerful enough to take seriously. Many times do I find reason to be a tad bit cryptic here and there, however it is not to deceive but instead it is to venture and to understand the reasoning of others. What is "cool" matters not to me, why should it matter to anyone (LOL, it is said that I don't have much style quite often, but who cares?)
Votaro
Blind Guardian the 2nd
You sound like someone with autistic tendencies (hence the lack of ability to read body language) who thinks he has come up with a world-beater in the form of already discovered cultural determinism.
Please, simply stop referring to it as to being Autistic, the fact of the matter is, Albert Einstein himself had this problem, the term "Autistic" has a reputation that causes people to refer to it as mental retardation, and considering that, it is quite idiotic considering the likes of Einstein and Newton (Though I must add that Newton's brain was not preserved, therefore the only basis for him being deemed as to having Asperger's is from the limited historical data that could be dug up on him and his social interactions and lack of understanding for other people and how they thought.)

Anyhow, referring to Asperger's syndrome so generically as to calling it Autism is in it's self a travesty considering the vast ignorance stating it as such promotes.

Those with Asperger's syndrome are most often able to think further outside the box than others, simply because they don't truly belong in the same box as others.

If you think back, Einstein failed Mathematics simply because he didn't do the problems the way they were trying to teach him to do them, instead he found a way he himself could understand them to be done through. The ironic fact here is they assumed he was cheating and copying the answer from the papers of others while writing a false path to in which the answer could be found through, however that was not the case, the case here was that he was using his own way to get the answers and though the teachers could not comprehend it, his answers were correct.

He was quite the class clown considering how little he was accepted, since it is an easy observation to make that people prefer lightheartedness as apposed to intellectual forms of entertainment, he came to feel that be trying to be funny, he'd have more of a chance for fitting in not to mention lessen his stress by making himself laugh every now and then.


I said it was autistic tendencies. I didn't accuse you of having a disorder specifically. Also, you sir are hardly Einstein.

Secondly, Aspergers are disorders upon the autistic spectrum. What I said was not unbefitting in any way. I didn't call it "autism". And the fact that you're getting so fussed over the prospect of "retardation" shows your problem with the disorder more than anybody else's. Plenty of people exhibit autistic tendencies but in different fashions. There's no shame in it, but yours appears to be a particular problem with nonverbal behaviour.

You're not thinking outside the box. Academics have explored your positions before, and with much more depth and formulaic structure.

Einstein didn't fail mathematics. He was always very proficient at mathematics. He failed general entrance exams, but excelled in particular subjects.
Votaro
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
I'm surprised you caught that, the thing is until people begin to conform to only what they aren't ignorant of, I've assessed it to be wise to promote "Training Wheels", it is in fact not conformity in general that is the problem, but in fact conformity imbued with ignorance


Then attack ignorance itself and don't muddy the waters of your argument with wasted words about not conforming which just makes you appear hypocritical.

The way you are speaking is to cry out that conforming is terrible and must be avoided, yet this is not actually your target; you want people to conform to the appropriate values. Your target it is ignorance: hit it. Tell us what ignorance is present, explain it nature, and hopefully, construct a case for how it might be solved or reduced.

Currently, your argument, with such a heavy focus on "not conforming" rather takes on a tone of insufferable whining from someone who thinks they are really cool for not doing so.
To reveal those whom are too under-analytical to see what my target is, well that is simply a path of deciding who's deductive skills are powerful enough to take seriously. Many times do I find reason to be a tad bit cryptic here and there, however it is not to deceive but instead it is to venture and to understand the reasoning of others. What is "cool" matters not to me, why should it matter to anyone (LOL, it is said that I don't have much style quite often, but who cares?)

You're very pretentious for someone who implies not caring about self-image.
Votaro
Not all conformity is based on ignorance, so no, you are wrong there. The conformity that keeps it's self going due to ignorance on matters and people feeling comfortable with the "belonging" is the dangerous form.

Also, while you are stuck onto yourself, you fail to see what all i am saying, the fact of the matter here is that you've just agreed with the importance of two different virtues without realizing it. I put them in bold for you to read.

The fact that you didn't realize this only reveals that you in fact have not taken the time to study virtues enough to see what they have to offer.

Such ignorance reveals the flaw within the claim you are making regarding your own validity verse my validity.

Also, you automatically assume that I created these virtues, that too is quite ignorant, especially when all these virtues are universally acceptable.

http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

I present you with the resource to undo your state of ignorance regarding virtues, either accept the invitation or deny it, but either way, if you deny it, I'll not find any reason to take you seriously, nor will anyone else who knows where I am coming from .


Your failure to state what forms of conformity I should be oppositional towards is not any wrongdoing of mine.

"Belonging" is not a dangerous form at all; human feelings of community and relatedness are one of the prime forms of social existence from which humans derive happiness. Those who feel more integrated into a human group generally suffer less from mental disorders, physical ailments and general feelings of unhappiness. Not all belonging is ignorance, and you need to clearly specify that which you have a problem with.

The value of human co-operation has already been explored in huge amounts of detail. Have you already read Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, Sahlins and Durkheim?

Or I don't accept that they are virtues: the valuable nature of your "virtues" are all culturally sourced, making them relative, not absolute values.

You can stop tauting the banal claims of ignorance for your unwillingness to see your own perspective as a moral projection of social beliefs.

No virtue is universally acceptable. Linking me to some flimsy spiritual beliefs website doesn't change that. It only proves what I stated: that your beliefs are all culturally crafted, and it's not a question of objective philosophy at all.
Votaro
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
I'm surprised you caught that, the thing is until people begin to conform to only what they aren't ignorant of, I've assessed it to be wise to promote "Training Wheels", it is in fact not conformity in general that is the problem, but in fact conformity imbued with ignorance


Then attack ignorance itself and don't muddy the waters of your argument with wasted words about not conforming which just makes you appear hypocritical.

The way you are speaking is to cry out that conforming is terrible and must be avoided, yet this is not actually your target; you want people to conform to the appropriate values. Your target it is ignorance: hit it. Tell us what ignorance is present, explain it nature, and hopefully, construct a case for how it might be solved or reduced.

Currently, your argument, with such a heavy focus on "not conforming" rather takes on a tone of insufferable whining from someone who thinks they are really cool for not doing so.
To reveal those whom are too under-analytical to see what my target is, well that is simply a path of deciding who's deductive skills are powerful enough to take seriously. Many times do I find reason to be a tad bit cryptic here and there, however it is not to deceive but instead it is to venture and to understand the reasoning of others. What is "cool" matters not to me, why should it matter to anyone (LOL, it is said that I don't have much style quite often, but who cares?)


That is not a good idea if you want people to understand you or respect your argument. Especially, if being cryptic makes it appear that you are contradicting yourself.
argumentum ad populum
Votaro
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
I'm surprised you caught that, the thing is until people begin to conform to only what they aren't ignorant of, I've assessed it to be wise to promote "Training Wheels", it is in fact not conformity in general that is the problem, but in fact conformity imbued with ignorance


Then attack ignorance itself and don't muddy the waters of your argument with wasted words about not conforming which just makes you appear hypocritical.

The way you are speaking is to cry out that conforming is terrible and must be avoided, yet this is not actually your target; you want people to conform to the appropriate values. Your target it is ignorance: hit it. Tell us what ignorance is present, explain it nature, and hopefully, construct a case for how it might be solved or reduced.

Currently, your argument, with such a heavy focus on "not conforming" rather takes on a tone of insufferable whining from someone who thinks they are really cool for not doing so.
To reveal those whom are too under-analytical to see what my target is, well that is simply a path of deciding who's deductive skills are powerful enough to take seriously. Many times do I find reason to be a tad bit cryptic here and there, however it is not to deceive but instead it is to venture and to understand the reasoning of others. What is "cool" matters not to me, why should it matter to anyone (LOL, it is said that I don't have much style quite often, but who cares?)

You're very pretentious for someone who implies not caring about self-image.
I'm not pretentious, this is simply how I think, do you seriously still expect me to think as if I can be identified and understood under the same codes of psychology as you? Earlier it seemed as if I were implying that I wasn't human, this here is because even my family and friends have come to perceive me as the "Alien" among them, the reasoning behind this is that those whom know me, know that I think on an entirely different wavelength as they do, not to mention I quite a bit get referred to as an old man. Anyhow, I have a higher level of consciousness than the average person at my age, however my level of Consciousness is still not as far progressed as it can get.
Because of this, people believe it or not tend to ask for my advice on a weekly basis.
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Votaro
Not all conformity is based on ignorance, so no, you are wrong there. The conformity that keeps it's self going due to ignorance on matters and people feeling comfortable with the "belonging" is the dangerous form.

Also, while you are stuck onto yourself, you fail to see what all i am saying, the fact of the matter here is that you've just agreed with the importance of two different virtues without realizing it. I put them in bold for you to read.

The fact that you didn't realize this only reveals that you in fact have not taken the time to study virtues enough to see what they have to offer.

Such ignorance reveals the flaw within the claim you are making regarding your own validity verse my validity.

Also, you automatically assume that I created these virtues, that too is quite ignorant, especially when all these virtues are universally acceptable.

http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

I present you with the resource to undo your state of ignorance regarding virtues, either accept the invitation or deny it, but either way, if you deny it, I'll not find any reason to take you seriously, nor will anyone else who knows where I am coming from .


Your failure to state what forms of conformity I should be oppositional towards is not any wrongdoing of mine.

"Belonging" is not a dangerous form at all; human feelings of community and relatedness are one of the prime forms of social existence from which humans derive happiness. Those who feel more integrated into a human group generally suffer less from mental disorders, physical ailments and general feelings of unhappiness. Not all belonging is ignorance, and you need to clearly specify that which you have a problem with.

The value of human co-operation has already been explored in huge amounts of detail. Have you already read Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, Sahlins and Durkheim?

Or I don't accept that they are virtues: the valuable nature of your "virtues" are all culturally sourced, making them relative, not absolute values.

You can stop tauting the banal claims of ignorance for your unwillingness to see your own perspective as a moral projection of social beliefs.

No virtue is universally acceptable. Linking me to some flimsy spiritual beliefs website doesn't change that. It only proves what I stated: that your beliefs are all culturally crafted, and it's not a question of objective philosophy at all.
On the contrary, belonging to a group who's full ideals you'd be ignorant of, is in fact a dangerous thing, by the ways, read what Willow Of Darkness has figured out about what I am trying to infer. It's not purely conformity I am against, it is conformity to details one has ignorance of. I mean, how many people sign a contract without reading the whole damned thing? Being ignorant to something you've chosen to conform to is pretty much like that. For example, if you haven't read the entire bible and been able to understand every sentence story and promotion, then don't become a Christian (If this advice was taken then only radical Christians would exist LOL). You see the truth is, with the likes of Christianity (All knowing never changing God whose word is the bible..... yadda yadda) cherry picking only comes off as "Blasphemy" as it denies the destructive entirety of the biblical word. Conformity=Promotion of whatever you conform to.
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
The Willow Of Darkness
Votaro
I'm surprised you caught that, the thing is until people begin to conform to only what they aren't ignorant of, I've assessed it to be wise to promote "Training Wheels", it is in fact not conformity in general that is the problem, but in fact conformity imbued with ignorance


Then attack ignorance itself and don't muddy the waters of your argument with wasted words about not conforming which just makes you appear hypocritical.

The way you are speaking is to cry out that conforming is terrible and must be avoided, yet this is not actually your target; you want people to conform to the appropriate values. Your target it is ignorance: hit it. Tell us what ignorance is present, explain it nature, and hopefully, construct a case for how it might be solved or reduced.

Currently, your argument, with such a heavy focus on "not conforming" rather takes on a tone of insufferable whining from someone who thinks they are really cool for not doing so.
To reveal those whom are too under-analytical to see what my target is, well that is simply a path of deciding who's deductive skills are powerful enough to take seriously. Many times do I find reason to be a tad bit cryptic here and there, however it is not to deceive but instead it is to venture and to understand the reasoning of others. What is "cool" matters not to me, why should it matter to anyone (LOL, it is said that I don't have much style quite often, but who cares?)


That is not a good idea if you want people to understand you or respect your argument. Especially, if being cryptic makes it appear that you are contradicting yourself.
Probably a good point, however, how would you expect me to sort out which people have and hadn't taken the time to carefully read the entirety of my posts? I mean, if they don't actually try to understand me, then how am I to understand whatever connection they are trying to infer other than to test whether they are or aren't trying to understand me?
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Votaro
Not all conformity is based on ignorance, so no, you are wrong there. The conformity that keeps it's self going due to ignorance on matters and people feeling comfortable with the "belonging" is the dangerous form.

Also, while you are stuck onto yourself, you fail to see what all i am saying, the fact of the matter here is that you've just agreed with the importance of two different virtues without realizing it. I put them in bold for you to read.

The fact that you didn't realize this only reveals that you in fact have not taken the time to study virtues enough to see what they have to offer.

Such ignorance reveals the flaw within the claim you are making regarding your own validity verse my validity.

Also, you automatically assume that I created these virtues, that too is quite ignorant, especially when all these virtues are universally acceptable.

http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

I present you with the resource to undo your state of ignorance regarding virtues, either accept the invitation or deny it, but either way, if you deny it, I'll not find any reason to take you seriously, nor will anyone else who knows where I am coming from .


Your failure to state what forms of conformity I should be oppositional towards is not any wrongdoing of mine.

"Belonging" is not a dangerous form at all; human feelings of community and relatedness are one of the prime forms of social existence from which humans derive happiness. Those who feel more integrated into a human group generally suffer less from mental disorders, physical ailments and general feelings of unhappiness. Not all belonging is ignorance, and you need to clearly specify that which you have a problem with.

The value of human co-operation has already been explored in huge amounts of detail. Have you already read Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, Sahlins and Durkheim?

Or I don't accept that they are virtues: the valuable nature of your "virtues" are all culturally sourced, making them relative, not absolute values.

You can stop tauting the banal claims of ignorance for your unwillingness to see your own perspective as a moral projection of social beliefs.

No virtue is universally acceptable. Linking me to some flimsy spiritual beliefs website doesn't change that. It only proves what I stated: that your beliefs are all culturally crafted, and it's not a question of objective philosophy at all.
LOL, still haven't read the page I sent I see........ I'll surely be able to tell when you actually read the damned thing.
Votaro
I have a higher level of consciousness than the average person at my age.


This statement is meaningless unless you can provide the empirical measurements involved.
shoeless joe
Votaro
I have a higher level of consciousness than the average person at my age.


This statement is meaningless unless you can provide the empirical measurements involved.


Look up Ken Wilbur's study of consciousness, and look up Self Actualization, there is a connection but anyhow also, you are in part correct.

Such things are dependent on perception as are much of everything.

For example: Is self defense violence or does violence only imply hurting others for fun or out of malice?
Hanma Selis's avatar

Fashionable Lunatic

1,750 Points
  • Brandisher 100
  • Dressed Up 200
  • Signature Look 250
Votaro
Life need not be chaotic, however as human beings currently are, there is a dependency for suffering and chaos, for without it as we currently are, we'd not have any basis for appreciating the good that comes to us in life. In order to replace our method of appreciating the good in life, we need only view such things with awe, to see the trees and wildlife as sustenance and beauty and through that perception find great reason to appreciate it, that is how we need to evolve.

Walking the path to making world peace a possibility, starts with everyone changing their perceptions and dropping their dependency for chaos and suffering. We need hold virtues above what we are expected to conform to and what law demands of us. For allowing sheer virtues to guide us, is simply more balanced than any religion can offer.

I believe that world peace is possible because I love the human race with all my heart and believe in it. I respect each individual's ability to change for the better, and just thinking of that trait within humanity, brings water to my eyes and fills me with hope for it. Above all else, I believe that the human ability to change for the better deserves more respect than any other, even the human ability to love for some don't have it and for them, it is changing for the better that can change even that.

I spend my days thinking and building a philosophical system that can inspire people and teach them various things that would alter their perceptions and beliefs removing the things that keep them from allowing world peace to become a possibility. When people see someone they deem as evil, I see a person who rather than being evil, was simply subjected to evil influences and the temptation of anti-virtues such as malice, greed, and primitive lacking of self control. My head aches from excessive thought and I crave allies for my cause. Because of the observations I've made, I'm a counter-cultural Philosopher who holds Virtues as the superior foundation for influences rather than ego.

Counter Cultural Philosophy is the philosophy I myself believe in. From many things I've come to see I've gained reason to believe that we as a people are simply culturally corrupt. I may be far different then other people, and I may not be able to understand other people, however this has equipped me with reasoning to try and understand them. Through the search I've found many features within the average human's mind-frame that are simply chaotic. People are so attached to their cultural corruptions that they are unable to truly think outside the box. This here keeps them from addressing important subjects such as how to make world peace a possibility. People's perceptions need to change, for that a change of culture is necessary.

For example, the human nature of deceit in every day actions. I can't read body language, therefore I do my best to simply encourage others to be open, honest, sincere and straightforward with me. This here has very little of an effect, as they completely ignore it and then act as if it is my fault when I am unable to read their body language. The subconscious Justification that is used is actually quite obvious, they are used to depending on it, who am I to ask them to stop?

Many things that work as societal influences go unquestioned or simply are not questioned enough. If something has a large amount of data and is a societal influence, don't decide on settling for a too long didn't read attitude and tolerate it blindly, that is ignorance and that is dangerous. I am of course referring to books deemed as life guide books. Sure it may be bold for me to approach this sort of subject, however I don't have the filters of thought and perception you have, controversy to me is just like any other subject, I don't allow it to work on me as if it were a no trespassing sign, nor can I understand how some people have that programmed into their subconsciousness as if they were born with it.


Why does this remind me of socialism?
Votaro
Blind Guardian the 2nd
Votaro
Not all conformity is based on ignorance, so no, you are wrong there. The conformity that keeps it's self going due to ignorance on matters and people feeling comfortable with the "belonging" is the dangerous form.

Also, while you are stuck onto yourself, you fail to see what all i am saying, the fact of the matter here is that you've just agreed with the importance of two different virtues without realizing it. I put them in bold for you to read.

The fact that you didn't realize this only reveals that you in fact have not taken the time to study virtues enough to see what they have to offer.

Such ignorance reveals the flaw within the claim you are making regarding your own validity verse my validity.

Also, you automatically assume that I created these virtues, that too is quite ignorant, especially when all these virtues are universally acceptable.

http://www.virtuescience.com/virtuelist.html

I present you with the resource to undo your state of ignorance regarding virtues, either accept the invitation or deny it, but either way, if you deny it, I'll not find any reason to take you seriously, nor will anyone else who knows where I am coming from .


Your failure to state what forms of conformity I should be oppositional towards is not any wrongdoing of mine.

"Belonging" is not a dangerous form at all; human feelings of community and relatedness are one of the prime forms of social existence from which humans derive happiness. Those who feel more integrated into a human group generally suffer less from mental disorders, physical ailments and general feelings of unhappiness. Not all belonging is ignorance, and you need to clearly specify that which you have a problem with.

The value of human co-operation has already been explored in huge amounts of detail. Have you already read Marx, Engels, Kropotkin, Sahlins and Durkheim?

Or I don't accept that they are virtues: the valuable nature of your "virtues" are all culturally sourced, making them relative, not absolute values.

You can stop tauting the banal claims of ignorance for your unwillingness to see your own perspective as a moral projection of social beliefs.

No virtue is universally acceptable. Linking me to some flimsy spiritual beliefs website doesn't change that. It only proves what I stated: that your beliefs are all culturally crafted, and it's not a question of objective philosophy at all.
LOL, still haven't read the page I sent I see........ I'll surely be able to tell when you actually read the damned thing.


I read the page. It's a crock of s**t using quickly spun categories, and you cannot use any of it to dismiss my sentiment. I don't see why some awful site that might as well be from Geocities is any interest of mine.

Quick Reply

Submit
Manage Your Items
Other Stuff
Get Items
Get Gaia Cash
Where Everyone Hangs Out
Other Community Areas
Virtual Spaces
Fun Stuff
Gaia's Games