closed "Worlds Youngest Transsexual" Kim Petras

this was

Great	41.3%	[ 31 ]
Wast of time	10.7%	[ 8 ]
Indifferent	20.0%	[ 15 ]
How olds she now?	9.3%	[ 7 ]
Umm hunnn	18.7%	[ 14 ]
Total Votes:			[ 75 ]

[Hanma Selis]

Well, it is her choice. In this era, be who you want to be.

[AnthroScorp]

Meliora Fae

Poor brain-washed child. This is why gender is wrong.

burning_eyes
Your comment is
vague to me, please give more information
on your thoughts..

are you saying kims brain washed, me for
my thoughts, that trans person's should be up front
when they start dating a person?

Or one of the other person's for there
thoughts??

[wasabichan]

Suicidesoldier#1

Yeah, it's difficult.

I wouldn't do it unless you are ready- I mean financially is important too, don't want money problems and kids.


And you'd probs want a decent house squared away to raise them in.

Room is very important- also think of schools, the neighborhood you're in, and lots of things. 3nodding

... Am I suddenly on Oprah?

[I AM R U]

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

Correct.

Hormone treatment and things at a young age is a very bad idea.

I have read the other posts, but this just seemed like a good one to make my point from...

Not allowing her to have hormonal treatment could have had devastating psychological effects on her - she was very clear that she aware that she was in the wrong body, and forcing her to remain trapped in it could have (and it is clear from older transexuals who have either hidden their condition or been denied treament) severe repercussions on her mental health.

By allowing her to become what she actually is, in the safest way possible, with plenty of support and guidance, she stands the best chance of emerging a healthy and stable young woman, rather than an emotionally crippled, disraught young man who doesn't understand why he's being punished/tortured by having to remain trapped in a body that isn't really his...

Great. Eventually, hormone treatments and things will be a good idea.

confused they are a good idea, I'd say.

When someone is older.

Why wait and possibly cause irreparable psychological damage?

[Suicidesoldier#1]

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

Correct.

Hormone treatment and things at a young age is a very bad idea.

I have read the other posts, but this just seemed like a good one to make my point from...

Not allowing her to have hormonal treatment could have had devastating psychological effects on her - she was very clear that she aware that she was in the wrong body, and forcing her to remain trapped in it could have (and it is clear from older transexuals who have either hidden their condition or been denied treament) severe repercussions on her mental health.

By allowing her to become what she actually is, in the safest way possible, with plenty of support and guidance, she stands the best chance of emerging a healthy and stable young woman, rather than an emotionally crippled, disraught young man who doesn't understand why he's being punished/tortured by having to remain trapped in a body that isn't really his...

Great. Eventually, hormone treatments and things will be a good idea.

confused they are a good idea, I'd say.

When someone is older.

Why wait and possibly cause irreparable psychological damage?

Because the physical damage may be worse.

Also they've already been their not sex so like, idk O_o


If it's that psychologically scarring to continue doing it for a few more years maybe they need counseling.

All they'd be doing is changing their appearance really, and there are ways to do that without hormone suppression and changing.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

wasabichan

Suicidesoldier#1

Yeah, it's difficult.

I wouldn't do it unless you are ready- I mean financially is important too, don't want money problems and kids.


And you'd probs want a decent house squared away to raise them in.

Room is very important- also think of schools, the neighborhood you're in, and lots of things. 3nodding

... Am I suddenly on Oprah?

Yes. ninja

[I AM R U]

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

Great. Eventually, hormone treatments and things will be a good idea.

confused they are a good idea, I'd say.

When someone is older.

Why wait and possibly cause irreparable psychological damage?

Because the physical damage may be worse.

Also they've already been their not sex so like, idk O_o


If it's that psychologically scarring to continue doing it for a few more years maybe they need counseling.

All they'd be doing is changing their appearance really, and there are ways to do that without hormone suppression and changing.

Hormone therapy works though, so the physical damage you're referring to is actually something these people want...

Your second sentence makes no sense at all, so I'm ignoring it xp

And they get counseling, it's mandatory for anyone who wants to transition from male/female to female/male...

And while you and I may see it purely as an "appearance" or superficial change, for these people it's so much more... The transgendered people I've met have described it as being trapped forever in a body that doesn't belong to you, that does things that disgust you... They said they didn't connect/relate to their physical form, and most of them abused it becuase they didn't see it as a part of them, it was a different "person" that they hated, and resented... Being born into the wrong body sounds just incredibly ******** up - I may hate the way I look, but at least I know it's me when I look in the mirror. Imagine how disturbing it would be to look in the mirror and wonder why some guy is looking at you, then realise it's you. A friend of mine said that was what it was like for her, to be startled everytime she caught her reflection when she was a guy - it made her want to rip the face off...

Just wearing women's clothes and behaving as a girl wasn't enough - she wanted to get rid of EVERYTHING that had made her male, which meant the only solution was hormone therapy and surgery... She got admitted twice to hospital for trying to cut off her own d**k as a child, and considering how much any damage to that part of your body hurts, I think that proves how determined she was, even at a young age, to get rid of the parts that simply didn't belong. For crying out loud, I wear women's clothes and act kind of feminine, and I know I'm a guy... Simply changing stuff like that doesn't make you female, so hormone treatment etc. becomes the only way to go...

[Suicidesoldier#1]

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

I AM R U

Suicidesoldier#1

Great. Eventually, hormone treatments and things will be a good idea.

confused they are a good idea, I'd say.

When someone is older.

Why wait and possibly cause irreparable psychological damage?

Because the physical damage may be worse.

Also they've already been their not sex so like, idk O_o


If it's that psychologically scarring to continue doing it for a few more years maybe they need counseling.

All they'd be doing is changing their appearance really, and there are ways to do that without hormone suppression and changing.

Hormone therapy works though, so the physical damage you're referring to is actually something these people want...

Your second sentence makes no sense at all, so I'm ignoring it xp

And they get counseling, it's mandatory for anyone who wants to transition from male/female to female/male...

And while you and I may see it purely as an "appearance" or superficial change, for these people it's so much more... The transgendered people I've met have described it as being trapped forever in a body that doesn't belong to you, that does things that disgust you... They said they didn't connect/relate to their physical form, and most of them abused it becuase they didn't see it as a part of them, it was a different "person" that they hated, and resented... Being born into the wrong body sounds just incredibly ******** up - I may hate the way I look, but at least I know it's me when I look in the mirror. Imagine how disturbing it would be to look in the mirror and wonder why some guy is looking at you, then realise it's you. A friend of mine said that was what it was like for her, to be startled everytime she caught her reflection when she was a guy - it made her want to rip the face off...

Just wearing women's clothes and behaving as a girl wasn't enough - she wanted to get rid of EVERYTHING that had made her male, which meant the only solution was hormone therapy and surgery... She got admitted twice to hospital for trying to cut off her own d**k as a child, and considering how much any damage to that part of your body hurts, I think that proves how determined she was, even at a young age, to get rid of the parts that simply didn't belong. For crying out loud, I wear women's clothes and act kind of feminine, and I know I'm a guy... Simply changing stuff like that doesn't make you female, so hormone treatment etc. becomes the only way to go...

But it's never been okayed for use on children.

What has been is still controversial even still.


I'm all for people looking or "feeling" the way they want to but like, you have to consider a lot of factors.

I mean okay, the average adult male is 5'9.5 while the average adult female is 5'4.5. So what, are they going to stunt their growth too, replace their jaw, change around near inherent facial features, widen their hips and remove other bones and things, or at least sand them down?


In a still developing child?

I mean it's just going to have a lot more impact, as even if you did try to widen the hips or shorten them of a child it'd just continue growing other ways irrelevant of hormones, I mean it's really quite ridiculous to try to do these things, even if you do it right you will still be giving them problems. Trans people complain of hip discomfort all the time. I can't imagine what it would be like if it grew in wrong. I mean I have hip problems but that would just be horrid. And there's all different kinds of bones and things, and organs, and the brain even. I have no problem with transsexuals wanting to look like how they want to, I really don't even see a problem with plastic surgery other than potential risks, and people find it immoral for some reason. I personally don't care.


BUT you have to consider the impact- even if they did get plastic surgery at a young age they are just going to grow again and it's going to cause all kinds of problems. Imagine growing into a pair of skinny jeens you can never take off. Except imagine it tearing out of your body. You couldn't even keep up with the proper maintenance sense children have strange growing spurts.

I only see stem cells and nanotechnology really being able to do this without much issue. Until then we just have to deal with human biology. It's just a bad idea. Dressing up in whatever clothes you like, wearing make-up, fine though I guess. Got no issue with that.

[Captain Verd]

Agent Ego

A conspiracy is any amount of cooperation towards a common goal.

Mr. Incredible works alone.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

GuardianCentauri

Suicidesoldier#1

None of the links you've posted actually provide any evidence to back your assertion that any differences between males and females are so inherent and so dependent on sex hormones specifically that proper development into an adult can't occur when cross-sex hormones and hormone blockers are applied appropriately by a well trained medical professional.

Suicidesoldier#1

Some stuff.

This is just a general explanation of the medications used on transgendered patients and some of their effects, etc. If you're referring to the cautionary bolded parts, they're there not to say that cross-sex hormones always cause problems but to warn individuals that the safest thing to do is to go through the proper channels rather than trying to self-dose themselves with medications from questionable sources. It's only further evidence of how important it is to go to a well trained medical professional in order to avoid potential problems.

Suicidesoldier#1

Most patches are HRT or patch Hormone replacement therapy patches designed to combat secondary sex characteristics. Facial hair on men, the lack of it on woman, etc.

Just some stupid sight.

That link doesn't even really detail any differences between the sexes; it's simply an overview of what all sorts of hormones do in general. Again, nothing in there is saying that cross-sex hormones don't work with the various organs mentioned.

Also, the last page of that document actually highlights the importance of how the intervention of a trained medical professional can alleviate certain hormonally-caused conditions via artifical addition of hormones and other medications. If your theory really were true, then treatment of those conditions with hormones probably wouldn't work. However, they do.

Suicidesoldier#1

The Thyroid gland helps to regulate brain and growth of a child. This also talks about infants but it's still good. More or less, it has a lot to do with brain development and the growth of the liver, kidneys, and basically the whole body. The Thyroid determines the sensitivity to various hormones. Here is some good info from wiki. But sense you didn't even know about Vitamin D levels in the gut and thought all you needed to get it from was the sun, I'll explain it for you.

More links that, yes, talk about the importance of all sorts of hormones on development but do not support your argument that proper application of cross-sex hormones somehow totally interferes with development and can't work on another sex.

I didn't read the entire first article because of how long it is, but a quick search for "estrogen" and "testosterone" only revealed one match for each, neither of which back up your claim that they completely derail development. Most of the article talks about thyroid hormones specifically which are different from sex hormones. You seem like you're lumping all hormones together as if they're all the same and affect the same bodily functions. They don't. You can't confuse evidence of one type of hormone's effects with another and assume the same thing will happen if you increase or decrease levels of either.

The only thing I saw in the second link that could be remotely related to your assertion is "TSH production is blunted by somatostatin (SRIH), rising levels of glucocorticoids and sex hormones (estrogen and testosterone)". However, that line doesn't specify under what conditions and how much of estrogen and/or testosterone is necessary to have those deleterious effects. Dosage and even specific information on exactly what types of estrogens and androgens are used is critical. After all, high enough levels of either in either sex can cause harm, even in cisgendered individuals. It does not mean that a careful and controlled application will bring about the same result. Again, this backs up the point we've been making that consulting a fully trained medical professional is the best path to go with.

Suicidesoldier#1

Anyways, uncontrollably, the thyroid will change. It's different for males and females. It isn't regulated by hormones it regulates hormones, and the effects it has on the body. This is becuase it's regulated by the Hypothalamus, which produces Thyrotropin-releasing hormone or TRH which regulates TSH which regulates hormones. Even if you were to inject a developing male or female with the exact opposite hormones in hopes of producing feminine characteristics it wouldn't matter. The Hypothalamus would change around the Thyroid which would drastically alter the effects the hormones would have. It's different in males and females, and it's unavoidable unless you ******** with the brain.

The first link details some differences in thyroid development between males and females, yes, but it still doesn't conclude that cross-sex hormones can't work beneficially on the organ too. In fact, the very finding that the thyroid is "further modulated by sex steroid secretion profiles" may indicate that cross-sex hormones can alter the function of the thyroid in a similar manner to what occurs in cisgendered members of the target sex. After all, if cross-sex hormone application didn't work, we wouldn't see alteration of secondary sex characteristics in transgendered patients. As well, nothing in the study indicates that cross-sex hormone application doesn't work or causes disasterous results; you can't claim that when the study doesn't even address it.

Same points with the last two links. They, again, don't address cross-sex hormone usage and its effects. You're making the assumption that any influence at all of any hormones will have deleterious effects even when applied at proper dosages by a trained medical professional and, oddly enough, that some of those changes perhaps can't be at all reversed in a cross-sex individual. To some extent, some can't past puberty, it's true, but that doesn't mean that a person's biology is firmly stuck in every way to what their sex chromosomes are. Your links don't back up your belief that cross-sex hormones are incompatible with a member of another sex chromosomally, even a younger one.

Suicidesoldier#1

In turn it helps regulates brain development- the body, based on the brain structure and *basically* the XY or XX chromosomes, will change around the thyroid, which is already different in males and females, and as such the response of the hormones. During these developmental phases, I mean until one is an adult or stops growing, to some degree (even after the accepted 18 people will generally continue to grow until 25 in some ways), hormones play a big role in the development of the body. The Thyroid will respond differently to different ones depending on sex. Even if change around the hormones, say putting female hormones into a male, you will mess up a lot, becuase the Thyroid and brain will not respond to it correctly. "Okay, then simply put in the right amount to produce the desired effects"- there simply isn't a way of doing that. You will mess with the brain unless you have the proper amount per sex. It just won't function properly. You'd have to change the Thyroid and the brain which you simply can't do. Even if you obliterated all the male hormones, let's say, and put in female hormones, the brain wouldn't respond and wouldn't continue growing. You'd have an individual stuck with a prepubescent brain all their life, and probably worse sense it's expected to grow. Even mild hormone interjection as this time is a very, very bad idea.

Maybe it's becuase I care for people that I search this up. It's okay you don't have a medical degree but don't try to give out advice or think you know what you're talking about. This is serious business. We're talking mess up a person's growth into a healthy human being. But you don't like to think things through. Something inside you simply died.

The rest is just purely your opinion, of course, which I'm guessing is not that of a fully medically trained professional, never mind a specialist in the area of hormones like an endocrinologist.

Again, I have never said that there are no risks in treatment. What I'm saying is your gross assumption of "You'd have an individual stuck with a prepubescent brain all their life" goes far beyond that and hasn't been supported by any of the sources that you've provided.

There simply is a way to do this; it's what professionals have been doing for many decades now based on plenty of evidence and even more all the time.

Furthermore, as someone else posted, there is some evidence that transsexual individuals may share some brain anatomy that is similar in structure to their target sex. Granted, these early studies have low sample sizes, at least in part because of the proportionally low numbers of individuals to run studies on compared to non-trans ones, so further research would help to illuminate this phenonmenon more. However, it does further cast doubt on your belief that a person's brain is somehow completely bound to what their sex chromosomes are.
http://jcem.endojournals.org/content/85/5/2034.full

Besides, none of this addresses the fact that one of the primary reasons the medical and psychological establishment supports these methods is because the risk of intense psychological harm that can occur to an individual as a result of feeling a dissonance with their body tends to outweigh the possible medical risks of applying a proper cross-sex hormone regimen. Simply saying that something may cause harm to an individual doesn't actually provide the individual with a solution that will help them.

Quote:

Early use of puberty suppressing hormones may avert negative social and emotional consequences of gender dysphoria more effectively than their later use would. Intervention in early adolescence should be managed with pediatric endocrinological advice, when available. Adolescents with male genitalia who start GnRH analogues early in puberty should be informed that this could result in insufficient penile tissue for penile inversion vaginoplasty techniques (alternative techniques, such as the use of a skin graft or colon tissue, are available).

Neither puberty suppression nor allowing puberty to occur is a neutral act. On the one hand, functioning in later life can be compromised by the development of irreversible secondary sex characteristics during puberty and by years spent experiencing intense gender dysphoria. On the other hand, there are concerns about negative physical side effects of GnRH analog use (e.g., on bone development and height). Although the very first results of this approach (as assessed for adolescents followed over 10 years) are promising (Cohen-Kettenis et al., 2011; Delemarre-van de Waal & Cohen-Kettenis, 2006), the long-term effects can only be determined when the earliest treated patients reach the appropriate age.

...

Regimens for hormone therapy in gender dysphoric adolescents differ substantially from those used in adults (Hembree et al., 2009). The hormone regimens for youth are adapted to account for the somatic, emotional, and mental development that occurs throughout adolescence (Hembree et al., 2009).

http://www.wpath.org/documents/Standards of Care V7 - 2011 WPATH.pdf (page 20)

It's about the fact that the hypothalamus, which in turn effects the thyroid gland, will still interfere with any type of hormones you provide. You can't really suppress it as it effects the effects of hormones themselves, and not necessarily changes hormones.

Even if you used completely different hormones you couldn't really match the effects. And even if you tried there are other effects the hormones have besides sexual development that a brain will only respond to, simply becuase it isn't a complete opposite gender brain.


Although I admit that the effects aren't entirely understood, it's known to effect these parts of the body and their development. Who knows, maybe these unknowns wouldn't really have an impact, maybe it would be positive. What is known could be disastrous. What isn't known could be crazy stuff, there's no reason to go around messing with what we don't understand.

As far as pyschological development I'm sure it could be bad. If we had magic we could resolve a lot of issues. We don't. Various sexual organs also play a part in developmental procedures- simply removing them and then replacing hormones won't solve everything.

[Seraph of Thursday]

Suicidesoldier#1

But it's never been okayed for use on children.

But clearly it has been, since it's being done, and it's being done by approved medical professionals with education in the field and not by some backyard dealers and shady ex-surgeons. A whole group of doctors haven't just decided to do this behind the backs of society - they actually had to get an "okay" from the medical community, and getting that isn't easy at all.

Quote:

I'm all for people looking or "feeling" the way they want to but like, you have to consider a lot of factors.

I mean okay, the average adult male is 5'9.5 while the average adult female is 5'4.5. So what, are they going to stunt their growth too, replace their jaw, change around near inherent facial features, widen their hips and remove other bones and things, or at least sand them down?

In a still developing child?

Dude, estrogen does this. If you don't get testosterone, the testosterone-related growth will not happen (to the extent it could have happened). However, if you wait until they're 20 or 30 or hell, 50, this is EXACTLY what you need to deal with.

Quote:

Trans people complain of hip discomfort all the time. I can't imagine what it would be like if it grew in wrong. I mean I have hip problems but that would just be horrid.

... wait, what? I've never heard a single transperson complain of "hip discomfort" - FtMs whine about having wide hips, because we went through female puberty, and MtFs complain of having small hips because they went through male puberty. This could be avoided by early hormonal treatments, because the hormones are what tell your body what to do, which traits to develop. But discomfort, as in pain or something? Not related.

Quote:

BUT you have to consider the impact- even if they did get plastic surgery at a young age they are just going to grow again and it's going to cause all kinds of problems.

They won't be needing any of these surgeries, because the traits will not develop in the first place if you take care of the hormonal part.

Quote:

Imagine growing into a pair of skinny jeens you can never take off. Except imagine it tearing out of your body. You couldn't even keep up with the proper maintenance sense children have strange growing spurts.

Wtf?

Quote:

I only see stem cells and nanotechnology really being able to do this without much issue. Until then we just have to deal with human biology. It's just a bad idea.

Uh, um, yeah, I guess that goes for sex-reassignment surgery, but otherwise, irrelevant. We ARE dealing with human biology, endocrinology specifically. In the hands of people who actually have a clue, that's not necessarily a bad idea - at least isn't worse than letting you grow all the wrong ways and then having to surgically alter that later on when it could have been prevented.

[GuardianCentauri]

Suicidesoldier#1

But it's never been okayed for use on children.

What has been is still controversial even still.


I'm all for people looking or "feeling" the way they want to but like, you have to consider a lot of factors.

I mean okay, the average adult male is 5'9.5 while the average adult female is 5'4.5. So what, are they going to stunt their growth too, replace their jaw, change around near inherent facial features, widen their hips and remove other bones and things, or at least sand them down?


In a still developing child?

I mean it's just going to have a lot more impact, as even if you did try to widen the hips or shorten them of a child it'd just continue growing other ways irrelevant of hormones, I mean it's really quite ridiculous to try to do these things, even if you do it right you will still be giving them problems. Trans people complain of hip discomfort all the time. I can't imagine what it would be like if it grew in wrong. I mean I have hip problems but that would just be horrid. And there's all different kinds of bones and things, and organs, and the brain even. I have no problem with transsexuals wanting to look like how they want to, I really don't even see a problem with plastic surgery other than potential risks, and people find it immoral for some reason. I personally don't care.


BUT you have to consider the impact- even if they did get plastic surgery at a young age they are just going to grow again and it's going to cause all kinds of problems. Imagine growing into a pair of skinny jeens you can never take off. Except imagine it tearing out of your body. You couldn't even keep up with the proper maintenance sense children have strange growing spurts.

I only see stem cells and nanotechnology really being able to do this without much issue. Until then we just have to deal with human biology. It's just a bad idea. Dressing up in whatever clothes you like, wearing make-up, fine though I guess. Got no issue with that.

Again, what has been approved for children of certain ages and what procedures are in place varies by region and sometimes between different doctors and specialists too. It's not an outright "it's never been okayed for use on children" across the board. Saying it over and over won't make it any more of a 100% fact.

And again, saying that body parts will "continue growing other ways irrelevant of hormones" is inaccurate and begs the question of how you can really still be thinking that's entirely true after posting that link to a website listing all the changes that can happen due to the successful use of cross-sex hormones. Did you actually read those pages?

A lot of the considerations that you've mentioned actually kind of work in reverse to the way you're thinking. For instance, the younger a person starts on hormones, often the greater benefit they get out of them. Starting earlier can counter, at least in part, some of the concerns you've raised that result from puberty, like height, bone structure of the face, skeletal structure to some degree, facial hair development, etc.

On the other hand, for the adult patient, a lot of those final pubertal changes end approximately around the mid-twenties and tend to be irreversible unless far more invasive and expensive treatments are done, like surgeries for the bones and very time consuming and painful laser/electrolysis treatments for the facial hair. Some things like changes to the skeletal structure are permanent and don't currently have any effective surgeries or other options to deal with them.

As a result, starting a hormone regimen at an earlier age can be a lot less troublesome than all the surgeries that you seem to think are simpler than they actually are. Taking some pills or patches is easier and definitely less riskier in some ways than being operated on.

Quote:

The reduction in levels of "male" androgen hormones caused by oestrogen treatment will also have some slight affect on the skeleton - reducing male type "ruggedisation" and enhancing female type features, for example slightly broadening the pelvis and helping reduce the girl's adult height (by perhaps an inch or two) compared with her height if she had experienced a male puberty. While hormones play an important role in post-pubertal body shape, however, it's thought that the male "Y" chromosome is mainly responsible for skeletal growth. As a trans-girl is genetically "XY" she will thus still experience some degree of skeletal masculinisation, even if she commences female hormone treatment at eleven or twelve. In general, her physical characteristics as determined by her skeleton (height, skull, hand and foot size) will lie between the male and female norms post-puberty - although more towards the former than the later. This not necessarily bad as the western idea of feminine beauty is for tall and leggy women. As an adult, the woman will typically be both tall compared to the average woman (67.5 inches vs. 64.25 inches) and have long legs - both absolutely (32.5 inches vs. 30 inches) and relative for her height, ideal for those girls with ambitions as a model!

In a genetic girl, her increasing production of oestrogen during puberty causes her skeleton to mature so that growth eventually stops. Oestrogen treatment can speed up this bone maturation by accelerating the completion of growth in the growth plates (the zones of growing cartilage near the ends of children's bones) and thus suppresses growth somewhat, by up to two inches. Paediatric endocrinologist sometimes prescribe large doses of oestrogen (usually Efflinyl Estradiol) for a period of several years to deliberately restrict growth in excessively tall girls, and the same technique can be used to help induce in young transsexuals a final height in the typical female range 66 inches - 67 inches. However, obtaining supervised treatment for a transsexual boy-to-girl is difficult, arguing that height is not a disease, endocrinologists are becoming increasingly reluctant to treat even a genetically female "XX" adolescent unless bone growth X-rays show that excessive adult height for a female (over 71 inches) appears likely.

Commencing treatment during puberty will produce mixed results - e.g. the voice may have already deepened irreversibly but facial hair growth is prevented or greatly reduced.

Overall, the physical results of early hormonal treatment should be extremely successful, the girl developing a well feminised physique with full breasts (although rarely as large as the girl would like), no beard, plentiful scalp hair, and an unbroken female type voice. It's difficult to over-exaggerate just how great these advantages are, and how much of a disaster each year of delay is for the transsexual girl whose skeleton and body is rapidly turning in to that of a man. The end of puberty is a fundamental and irreversible physical marker, from which the plausible effects of feminising hormonal treatments on the body of a trans girl/woman decline with depressingly rapid speed. For any transsexual woman starting treatment when already physically mature (and this merely means age twenty onwards), a muscular and robust stature; a deep and masculine sounding voice; obvious facial beard growth; and a receding hairline, are just four of the immediate challenges that may seriously threaten her ability to pass convincingly as a woman. She also faces the high cost of electrolysis, breast augmentation, facial feminisation, etc.

http://www.gendercentre.org.au/82article6.htm

[GuardianCentauri]

Suicidesoldier#1

It's about the fact that the hypothalamus, which in turn effects the thyroid gland, will still interfere with any type of hormones you provide. You can't really suppress it as it effects the effects of hormones themselves, and not necessarily changes hormones.

Even if you used completely different hormones you couldn't really match the effects. And even if you tried there are other effects the hormones have besides sexual development that a brain will only respond to, simply becuase it isn't a complete opposite gender brain.


Although I admit that the effects aren't entirely understood, it's known to effect these parts of the body and their development. Who knows, maybe these unknowns wouldn't really have an impact, maybe it would be positive. What is known could be disastrous. What isn't known could be crazy stuff, there's no reason to go around messing with what we don't understand.

As far as pyschological development I'm sure it could be bad. If we had magic we could resolve a lot of issues. We don't. Various sexual organs also play a part in developmental procedures- simply removing them and then replacing hormones won't solve everything.

You're going to have to better explain how you think that the hypothalamus and/or thyroid gland needs to be primarily suppressed because that doesn't make any sense. Organs aren't directly suppressed by HRT, and that's the way it's supposed to work. One hormone is suppressed (or blocked, more accurately) while levels of the other are increased. Those hormones in turn affect the various hormonal organs throughout the body, to varying degrees, and they alter their own effects with their hormones. It's a chain reaction essentially. And yes, endocrinologists have the extensive knowledge to have a good idea of how that works. Not everything is known, no, but you're treating this like their expertise is practically non-existent. confused

Again, you need to post some links that actually back up your claim that cross-sex hormones are totally incompatible or even significantly incompatible with opposite sex chromosomes. There is some evidence that effects are lessened as compared to those born of the target sex, yes, but the hormones are still fairly effective despite that.

Additionally, everyone, regardless of sex, has certain levels of both estrogens and androgens in their bodies. Females have some testosterone while males have some estrogen. If your idea that these hormones didn't have any effect on the sex normally thought "opposite" to them were true, they would have absolutely no effect. However, that isn't the case. The effects are primarily more limited because of lower levels of them.

To summarize, there aren't as many unknowns as you continue to think there are, and providing HRT is actually an effective solution whereas some abstract hope for magic doesn't provide any help at all.

[Priestess Resira]

Sexy Cuban Cigars

Crylvia

Good for him.

Good for her.

Good for it.

[The Living Force]

Crylvia

Sexy Cuban Cigars

Crylvia

Good for him.

Good for her.

Good for it.

Wrong.