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False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
Us being over there doesn't stop them from coming over here. Us being here already does.

We don't need a military presence over there to prevent them from coming to us. We need a defense here, which we already have, and already works. They're far away; if they want to come get us, they have to send in troops by air or sea; if they attempt that, they will die horrifically because they can't contend with our military on that level. In this day and age, I don't think they'd even make it overseas.
I don't think you quite grasp who we're up against. For the most part, they are terrorists. Terrorists operate in small cells, typically estranged from one another and have little, if any contact with each other. I want you to watch the movie, which is a true story, "Act of Valor" (Fun fact: The .50 Cals used by SWCC in the emergency extraction are using live rounds instead of those cheesy blanks that sound like crap compared to the real thing in most movies). I want you to watch this movie with an open mind, as well.

And having served in the Navy, I'm well aware of what powers we have at hand to prevent a large-scale attack. We're not fighting an army. Believing otherwise is probably where this major delusion you have stems from.
We're not fighting an army, no. They don't have the ability to get to us en masse. That's my point.

The only things they can do are try to commit acts of terrorism. So we kill them when they try. Us being over there hasn't stopped the threat of terrorism, if anything, it's solidified it. You can't kill them all, stop trying, just go back home and defend yourself.
You can't "Kill them as they try". It requires information gathering. It requires projection of power. It requires organization. It requires raids. It requires gun fights. It requires the ability to move freely to your destination. It requires too much that you know nothing about. What you're asking is to limit resources and cut preventative measures and bring the enemy closer to home. That's counterproductive in every feasible way.
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
Us being over there doesn't stop them from coming over here. Us being here already does.

We don't need a military presence over there to prevent them from coming to us. We need a defense here, which we already have, and already works. They're far away; if they want to come get us, they have to send in troops by air or sea; if they attempt that, they will die horrifically because they can't contend with our military on that level. In this day and age, I don't think they'd even make it overseas.
I don't think you quite grasp who we're up against. For the most part, they are terrorists. Terrorists operate in small cells, typically estranged from one another and have little, if any contact with each other. I want you to watch the movie, which is a true story, "Act of Valor" (Fun fact: The .50 Cals used by SWCC in the emergency extraction are using live rounds instead of those cheesy blanks that sound like crap compared to the real thing in most movies). I want you to watch this movie with an open mind, as well.

And having served in the Navy, I'm well aware of what powers we have at hand to prevent a large-scale attack. We're not fighting an army. Believing otherwise is probably where this major delusion you have stems from.
We're not fighting an army, no. They don't have the ability to get to us en masse. That's my point.

The only things they can do are try to commit acts of terrorism. So we kill them when they try. Us being over there hasn't stopped the threat of terrorism, if anything, it's solidified it. You can't kill them all, stop trying, just go back home and defend yourself.
You can't "Kill them as they try". It requires information gathering. It requires projection of power. It requires organization. It requires raids. It requires gun fights. It requires the ability to move freely to your destination. It requires too much that you know nothing about. What you're asking is to limit resources and cut preventative measures and bring the enemy closer to home. That's counterproductive in every feasible way.
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
We're not fighting an army, no. They don't have the ability to get to us en masse. That's my point.

The only things they can do are try to commit acts of terrorism. So we kill them when they try. Us being over there hasn't stopped the threat of terrorism, if anything, it's solidified it. You can't kill them all, stop trying, just go back home and defend yourself.
You can't "Kill them as they try". It requires information gathering. It requires projection of power. It requires organization. It requires raids. It requires gun fights. It requires the ability to move freely to your destination. It requires too much that you know nothing about. What you're asking is to limit resources and cut preventative measures and bring the enemy closer to home. That's counterproductive in every feasible way.
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
We're not fighting an army, no. They don't have the ability to get to us en masse. That's my point.

The only things they can do are try to commit acts of terrorism. So we kill them when they try. Us being over there hasn't stopped the threat of terrorism, if anything, it's solidified it. You can't kill them all, stop trying, just go back home and defend yourself.
You can't "Kill them as they try". It requires information gathering. It requires projection of power. It requires organization. It requires raids. It requires gun fights. It requires the ability to move freely to your destination. It requires too much that you know nothing about. What you're asking is to limit resources and cut preventative measures and bring the enemy closer to home. That's counterproductive in every feasible way.
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
i never said anything about foreign engagements. I was talking about domestic residents having the capacity to defend themselves. But this is what I'm thinking with regard to foreign invasion. Genocide is always a viable reason to invade and wage a righteous war with a foreign power. When a political party, military, or government starts mass slaughter torturing/prison camping large numbers of people in its own borders, that country has failed and those people need to be protected, as a humanitarian obligation of the most obvious kind. Everything else is up to debate and the normal default should be "mind your own business".

For example, if Fantasystan decided to start gathering people with dump trucks and people scoopers and throwing them into giant vats to boil alive to then feed to the armies of Fantasystan, you better believe I would be among the first to sign up to start an invasion of Fantasystan.
Nearly our whole nation is up to their eyeballs in debt, nearly a million are homeless, people can hardly live on a minimum wage, and we live in a nation where the hoarders would like nothing less than to leave the poor to fend for themselves.

Are you telling me that it's my humanitarian obligation to pull a Tyler Durden?


Damn straight. Debt's a ******** fantasy anyway. You could make it all disappear magically with the "get rid of problems in 2 steps" program.
Step 1. plan a jubilee by executive order
Step 2: designate the debt collectors as a threat to national security and call in the seal teams to their mansions at Zero Dark Thirty.

Seriously, do you think the debt is impossible to solve? No. It's just bloody to solve.
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
Or if you want to provide safe passage for deployed ships, civilian vessels and by land. Big picture, buddy.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

Michael Noire
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
i never said anything about foreign engagements. I was talking about domestic residents having the capacity to defend themselves. But this is what I'm thinking with regard to foreign invasion. Genocide is always a viable reason to invade and wage a righteous war with a foreign power. When a political party, military, or government starts mass slaughter torturing/prison camping large numbers of people in its own borders, that country has failed and those people need to be protected, as a humanitarian obligation of the most obvious kind. Everything else is up to debate and the normal default should be "mind your own business".

For example, if Fantasystan decided to start gathering people with dump trucks and people scoopers and throwing them into giant vats to boil alive to then feed to the armies of Fantasystan, you better believe I would be among the first to sign up to start an invasion of Fantasystan.
Nearly our whole nation is up to their eyeballs in debt, nearly a million are homeless, people can hardly live on a minimum wage, and we live in a nation where the hoarders would like nothing less than to leave the poor to fend for themselves.

Are you telling me that it's my humanitarian obligation to pull a Tyler Durden?


Damn straight. Debt's a ******** fantasy anyway. You could make it all disappear magically with the "get rid of problems in 2 steps" program.
Step 1. plan a jubilee by executive order
Step 2: designate the debt collectors as a threat to national security and call in the seal teams to their mansions at Zero Dark Thirty.

Seriously, do you think the debt is impossible to solve? No. It's just bloody to solve.
Just who do you think owns the executive order?
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
i never said anything about foreign engagements. I was talking about domestic residents having the capacity to defend themselves. But this is what I'm thinking with regard to foreign invasion. Genocide is always a viable reason to invade and wage a righteous war with a foreign power. When a political party, military, or government starts mass slaughter torturing/prison camping large numbers of people in its own borders, that country has failed and those people need to be protected, as a humanitarian obligation of the most obvious kind. Everything else is up to debate and the normal default should be "mind your own business".

For example, if Fantasystan decided to start gathering people with dump trucks and people scoopers and throwing them into giant vats to boil alive to then feed to the armies of Fantasystan, you better believe I would be among the first to sign up to start an invasion of Fantasystan.
Nearly our whole nation is up to their eyeballs in debt, nearly a million are homeless, people can hardly live on a minimum wage, and we live in a nation where the hoarders would like nothing less than to leave the poor to fend for themselves.

Are you telling me that it's my humanitarian obligation to pull a Tyler Durden?


Damn straight. Debt's a ******** fantasy anyway. You could make it all disappear magically with the "get rid of problems in 2 steps" program.
Step 1. plan a jubilee by executive order
Step 2: designate the debt collectors as a threat to national security and call in the seal teams to their mansions at Zero Dark Thirty.

Seriously, do you think the debt is impossible to solve? No. It's just bloody to solve.
Just who do you think owns the executive order?


you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
If you think for even an instant that removal of troops would necessitate loss of information gathering, you're wrong. That place is swarming with CIA and FBI.
There are different kinds of information gathering and an agent or group of agents is rather limited.
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
Or if you want to provide safe passage for deployed ships, civilian vessels and by land. Big picture, buddy.
If we aren't there, it won't matter. We aren't their people's liberators.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

Michael Noire
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
i never said anything about foreign engagements. I was talking about domestic residents having the capacity to defend themselves. But this is what I'm thinking with regard to foreign invasion. Genocide is always a viable reason to invade and wage a righteous war with a foreign power. When a political party, military, or government starts mass slaughter torturing/prison camping large numbers of people in its own borders, that country has failed and those people need to be protected, as a humanitarian obligation of the most obvious kind. Everything else is up to debate and the normal default should be "mind your own business".

For example, if Fantasystan decided to start gathering people with dump trucks and people scoopers and throwing them into giant vats to boil alive to then feed to the armies of Fantasystan, you better believe I would be among the first to sign up to start an invasion of Fantasystan.
Nearly our whole nation is up to their eyeballs in debt, nearly a million are homeless, people can hardly live on a minimum wage, and we live in a nation where the hoarders would like nothing less than to leave the poor to fend for themselves.

Are you telling me that it's my humanitarian obligation to pull a Tyler Durden?


Damn straight. Debt's a ******** fantasy anyway. You could make it all disappear magically with the "get rid of problems in 2 steps" program.
Step 1. plan a jubilee by executive order
Step 2: designate the debt collectors as a threat to national security and call in the seal teams to their mansions at Zero Dark Thirty.

Seriously, do you think the debt is impossible to solve? No. It's just bloody to solve.
Just who do you think owns the executive order?


you sound like a conspiracy theorist.
Lobbying's a real thing. If you wanted to get our government to do such a thing, you'd need to replace most of them with people who wouldn't cave in to get next election's campaign support. I don't think it's a conspiracy at all, its there for everyone to see. Everyone knows, they're all fine with it.
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
Or if you want to provide safe passage for deployed ships, civilian vessels and by land. Big picture, buddy.
If we aren't there, it won't matter. We aren't their people's liberators.
Current operations are working to establish a government and train them so that the can take care of themselves. You're talking as if we went there without an objective in mind and the war's just never going to end.
Aporeia's avatar

Obsessive Sage

l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
This is a thread about unmanned dones... right?

Drones can gather any info soldiers could, and more.
Drones can not provide real-time updates and 24 hour surveillance. They are much more limited than you'd like to think. Every different piece is used for a different purpose and recon has to be more interactive than that.
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
Or if you want to provide safe passage for deployed ships, civilian vessels and by land. Big picture, buddy.
If we aren't there, it won't matter. We aren't their people's liberators.
Current operations are working to establish a government and train them so that the can take care of themselves. You're talking as if we went there without an objective in mind and the war's just never going to end.
Yea, pretty much. I don't really believe it'll end in my lifetime. Or rather, I don't believe this country will remain out of war for the rest of my lifetime. Even if they somehow miraculously complete the pipe dream they have established, We'll still be in war in 2, 3, possibly even 4 other countries before we end the ones we're in now.
the world is much too big and the body count much too high to make a change in your lifetime without concerted effort of several radicals. Mao achieved it. Lincoln achieved it. Washington achieved it. MacArthur achieved it. But all of these men spent life times accruing resources and allies, and those that acted in peace time always took longer to accomplish anything than what they could during war. Structures and Systems have metaphysical equivalents on the plane of the collective unconsciousness. Because war identified as such represents destruction of the physical material forms, the metaphysical forms, such as authority, power structure, unbacked currency, and taboos also have the potential to be broken down. Old ways become new again as ways known become memories beneath the rubble of a Revolution.
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
l_Shamrock_l
False Dichotomy
Yea, you need all that if you have soldiers there, are mounting an attack, or are trying to defend from an ambush.
Or if you want to provide safe passage for deployed ships, civilian vessels and by land. Big picture, buddy.
If we aren't there, it won't matter. We aren't their people's liberators.
Current operations are working to establish a government and train them so that the can take care of themselves. You're talking as if we went there without an objective in mind and the war's just never going to end.
Yea, pretty much. I don't really believe it'll end in my lifetime. Or rather, I don't believe this country will remain out of war for the rest of my lifetime. Even if they somehow miraculously complete the pipe dream they have established, We'll still be in war in 2, 3, possibly even 4 other countries before we end the ones we're in now.
I don't think it'll be that extreme, but I wouldn't rule out the possibility considering Obama has been saying "Next year we'll be done!" for a long time now and it still hasn't happened... I just don't think it's right to abandon the "project" half way through. You have to invest in your allies, whether it's something that's going to happen soon or in the distant future.
Keltoi Samurai's avatar

Benevolent Dog

16,050 Points
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False Dichotomy
I don't really think that conservatives are liking the war less. They're just doing whatever they can, and saying whatever they can say to diametrically oppose Obama. Like a 5 year old.

I do think we need to limit control of unmanned drones to the CIA and military.


much the same way liberals try to oppose everything conservative?

I mean, the moment Obama took over the wars in Afghanistan and Iraq, Democrats became pro-war just as quickly as Republicans became anti-war.

it's impressive, really

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