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For years it was difficult trying to get the average right wing conservative to see what a horrible, immoral waste of money and human life unwarranted military action was...especially under Bush and the neocons. But a funny thing happened. Obama became president. The guy who not only aggressively escalated the war in Afghanistan but launched covert and proxy conflicts in Pakistan, Yemen, Somalia, Libya, Mali, etc. Now all the sudden, conservatives are thinking wait a minute...this guy wants to ban our guns yet bring in the age of big brother predator drones?

And while I don't necessarily agree with the "gub'ment gonna take our guns" meme, I do find it refreshing to see more and more conservatives now opposed to war, drones, torture, civil rights violations, etc as so much of the left continues to support Bush policies because it's under a hip law school talking "Democrat".

Yes, many of us tend to roll our eyes when right wingers go on about the "we need guns to defend ourselves against the government someday"...but when you look at this drone situation, and how they may have wanted to use drones against that ex cop running amok in Los Angeles...it makes you wonder. Allegedly tens of thousands of drones will be patrolling American skies in the next few years according to FOIA's regarding FAA and government/corporate plans.

I am more or less a "liberal" and am not a gun person, but if the government is hunting down US citizens with drones and wanting to one day impose martial law...it seems like a moral counterbalance for Americans to be able to defend themselves.
pockybot
For years it was difficult trying to get the average right wing conservative to see what a horrible, immoral waste of money and human life unwarranted military action was...
I just want you to know that once you start pointing fingers or attempt to smear, you've already lost the "intelligent" part of your argument in lieu of blaming all of 'Murica's problems on your "enemy". I'll continue to finish reading now...

Upon finishing reading, I sort of agree with your statement. I haven't really seen much "opposed to war" as much as I have "Oppose to Obama", but that could just be the "He not our side on!" crowd. Conservative groups tend to cherish their right to bear arms because they tend to have less faith in the government. Their ideals do, in fact, mostly consist of being able to support oneself and less government involvement in their life, so it's only logical that they would want to be ready to arm themselves in the event tyranny is on the rise. Particularly with how Obama is currently treating the constitution as if it were a really old roll of toilet paper and going so far as to murder his own citizen without so much as a trial, much less evidence.

On a side note, since we "went there", isn't it also kind of ironic how, since Obama was elected, none of the liberals have been bitching about the war in Afghanistan? Or the fact Obama's murdering his own people? Or how they keep praising him for doing such a good job when the economy's worse than it's been in an incredibly long time, or how he just raised minimum wage which will most likely result in more workers being laid off and fewer businesses hiring? Or even businesses failing and perpetuating the weakening state of the dollar?
Dieu des hommes's avatar

Enduring Prophet

Drones don't kill people, guns do.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.
Tuah's avatar

Shadowy Rogue

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Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.


Mhhm. xp

Or their cause, in this case. xp


Truth be told, I'd love it if it was only robots doing the fighting, in the middle of a giant desert; I think this might solve a lot of our problems.

I even have ideas as how to make it about giant fighting robot birds, that's televised, with the terrorists going home and saying "ahh, we were defeated, by next year, we will prove we are the greatest!"


After all, it's technology that has, over the years, made mankind great, so the greatest machine would prove this. xp
Tuah's avatar

Shadowy Rogue

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Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.


Mhhm. xp

Or their cause, in this case. xp


Truth be told, I'd love it if it was only robots doing the fighting, in the middle of a giant desert; I think this might solve a lot of our problems.

I even have ideas as how to make it about giant fighting robot birds, that's televised, with the terrorists going home and saying "ahh, we were defeated, by next year, we will prove we are the greatest!"


After all, it's technology that has, over the years, made mankind great, so the greatest machine would prove this. xp


That's really the issue I have with them; not that we use technology to avoid sacrificing the lives of our soldiers, but that without that sacrifice our country is simply imposing its will over others at no cost.

But then again, I suppose what constitutes fairness pertains entirely to the subject matter. A boxing match is a fair fight. Murder of innocents is unfair regardless of the means; guns, airplanes, or even fists for that matter.

Using a gun against an unarmed burglar (who for argument's sake is going to murder someone with his hands) is unfairness on the burglar's part, and the fact that a gun is involved is irrelevant at that point.
Aporeia's avatar

Lonely Ladykiller

I don't really think that conservatives are liking the war less. They're just doing whatever they can, and saying whatever they can say to diametrically oppose Obama. Like a 5 year old.

I do think we need to limit control of unmanned drones to the CIA and military.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.


Mhhm. xp

Or their cause, in this case. xp


Truth be told, I'd love it if it was only robots doing the fighting, in the middle of a giant desert; I think this might solve a lot of our problems.

I even have ideas as how to make it about giant fighting robot birds, that's televised, with the terrorists going home and saying "ahh, we were defeated, by next year, we will prove we are the greatest!"


After all, it's technology that has, over the years, made mankind great, so the greatest machine would prove this. xp


That's really the issue I have with them; not that we use technology to avoid sacrificing the lives of our soldiers, but that without that sacrifice our country is simply imposing its will over others at no cost.

But then again, I suppose what constitutes fairness pertains entirely to the subject matter. A boxing match is a fair fight. Murder of innocents is unfair regardless of the means; guns, airplanes, or even fists for that matter.

Using a gun against an unarmed burglar (who for argument's sake is going to murder someone with his hands) is unfairness on the burglar's part, and the fact that a gun is involved is irrelevant at that point.


Eh, our country should be imposing our will at no cost.

If we really are spreading truth, justice, and the American way, and stopping terrorists while trying to spare as many innocent people as possible and then rebuilding their country, at not cost to us, fantastic.


I mean, what's this big thing you always hear about; war is really is expensive and causes PTSD and is terrible etc.

Hell, if we can remove most of this as a problem, and even potentially death, it's like, not even war anymore. So it's great! blaugh
Some drones are armed. Some drones have Artificial intelligence. Drones kill people. But RC drones are used by people to kill people as well. I'm not sure how long that will persist. When you apply predictive programming to AI machines capable of moving and shooting people, it becomes highly probable that in the very, very near future, a drone will just up and go kill someone without any order from a human being.

I personally oppose drones, even though this was Tesla's model of warfare. The reason is because of how it is implemented.

When Tesla envisioned these weapons, he saw robots in the skies attacking other robots, like a massive chess game where no blood is actually shed. But that's not what's happening. Drones are robots that kill living people, and counter drones and foreign drones are also being built by places like Iran, Russia, and China with the intent of killing people. If you have a bunch of robots killing people on both sides, instead of robots killing each other, all you have is a higher body count with a reduced chance of civilians being able to defend themselves, coupled with the bankrupting costs on both sides to build these infernal machines.

It is economically and morally unsound. Our tax dollars should be going to fund soldiers, not mindless killing machines. If our soldiers become mindless killing machines, we are training them wrong.
Aporeia's avatar

Lonely Ladykiller

Michael Noire
Some drones are armed. Some drones have Artificial intelligence. Drones kill people. But RC drones are used by people to kill people as well. I'm not sure how long that will persist. When you apply predictive programming to AI machines capable of moving and shooting people, it becomes highly probable that in the very, very near future, a drone will just up and go kill someone without any order from a human being.

I personally oppose drones, even though this was Tesla's model of warfare. The reason is because of how it is implemented.

When Tesla envisioned these weapons, he saw robots in the skies attacking other robots, like a massive chess game where no blood is actually shed. But that's not what's happening. Drones are robots that kill living people, and counter drones and foreign drones are also being built by places like Iran, Russia, and China with the intent of killing people. If you have a bunch of robots killing people on both sides, instead of robots killing each other, all you have is a higher body count with a reduced chance of civilians being able to defend themselves, coupled with the bankrupting costs on both sides to build these infernal machines.

It is economically and morally unsound. Our tax dollars should be going to fund soldiers, not mindless killing machines. If our soldiers become mindless killing machines, we are training them wrong.
Our tax dollars shouldn't go to killing people, period. If we spent half the money we did on our military on building sustainable housing, perhaps we might actually progress beyond the point of "DEM A TURRIST" and start to focus on internal affairs.
Tuah's avatar

Shadowy Rogue

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Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.


Mhhm. xp

Or their cause, in this case. xp


Truth be told, I'd love it if it was only robots doing the fighting, in the middle of a giant desert; I think this might solve a lot of our problems.

I even have ideas as how to make it about giant fighting robot birds, that's televised, with the terrorists going home and saying "ahh, we were defeated, by next year, we will prove we are the greatest!"


After all, it's technology that has, over the years, made mankind great, so the greatest machine would prove this. xp


That's really the issue I have with them; not that we use technology to avoid sacrificing the lives of our soldiers, but that without that sacrifice our country is simply imposing its will over others at no cost.

But then again, I suppose what constitutes fairness pertains entirely to the subject matter. A boxing match is a fair fight. Murder of innocents is unfair regardless of the means; guns, airplanes, or even fists for that matter.

Using a gun against an unarmed burglar (who for argument's sake is going to murder someone with his hands) is unfairness on the burglar's part, and the fact that a gun is involved is irrelevant at that point.


Eh, our country should be imposing our will at no cost.


If we really are spreading truth, justice, and the American way, and stopping terrorists while trying to spare as many innocent people as possible and then rebuilding their country, at not cost to us, fantastic.


I mean, what's this big thing you always hear about; war is really is expensive and causes PTSD and is terrible etc.

Hell, if we can remove most of this as a problem, and even potentially death, it's like, not even war anymore. So it's great! blaugh


This is what I'm worried about. I may not be fond of Islam (extremists in particular), but I feel America is far too unhealthy and conflicted a society to have any worldly opinions.

We are memes colliding like membranes. And I'm not pleased with ours.
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
Some drones are armed. Some drones have Artificial intelligence. Drones kill people. But RC drones are used by people to kill people as well. I'm not sure how long that will persist. When you apply predictive programming to AI machines capable of moving and shooting people, it becomes highly probable that in the very, very near future, a drone will just up and go kill someone without any order from a human being.

I personally oppose drones, even though this was Tesla's model of warfare. The reason is because of how it is implemented.

When Tesla envisioned these weapons, he saw robots in the skies attacking other robots, like a massive chess game where no blood is actually shed. But that's not what's happening. Drones are robots that kill living people, and counter drones and foreign drones are also being built by places like Iran, Russia, and China with the intent of killing people. If you have a bunch of robots killing people on both sides, instead of robots killing each other, all you have is a higher body count with a reduced chance of civilians being able to defend themselves, coupled with the bankrupting costs on both sides to build these infernal machines.

It is economically and morally unsound. Our tax dollars should be going to fund soldiers, not mindless killing machines. If our soldiers become mindless killing machines, we are training them wrong.
Our tax dollars shouldn't go to killing people, period. If we spent half the money we did on our military on building sustainable housing, perhaps we might actually progress beyond the point of "DEM A TURRIST" and start to focus on internal affairs.


If civilians with patriotic ties should be permitted to arm themselves sufficiently to represent a civilian military, loosely mirroring Switzerland or Israel on a non federal, non state level, then yes, but money from somewhere needs to be spent on providing a nations people with means to resist occupation and oppression, even if that means my neighbor has a rifle and his boss has a cannon - each according to his economic means.

But if the people have no means of defending themselves from foreign marauders, then you are advocating the worst kind of tragedy, and you should seek therapy immediately.
Aporeia's avatar

Lonely Ladykiller

Michael Noire
False Dichotomy
Michael Noire
Some drones are armed. Some drones have Artificial intelligence. Drones kill people. But RC drones are used by people to kill people as well. I'm not sure how long that will persist. When you apply predictive programming to AI machines capable of moving and shooting people, it becomes highly probable that in the very, very near future, a drone will just up and go kill someone without any order from a human being.

I personally oppose drones, even though this was Tesla's model of warfare. The reason is because of how it is implemented.

When Tesla envisioned these weapons, he saw robots in the skies attacking other robots, like a massive chess game where no blood is actually shed. But that's not what's happening. Drones are robots that kill living people, and counter drones and foreign drones are also being built by places like Iran, Russia, and China with the intent of killing people. If you have a bunch of robots killing people on both sides, instead of robots killing each other, all you have is a higher body count with a reduced chance of civilians being able to defend themselves, coupled with the bankrupting costs on both sides to build these infernal machines.

It is economically and morally unsound. Our tax dollars should be going to fund soldiers, not mindless killing machines. If our soldiers become mindless killing machines, we are training them wrong.
Our tax dollars shouldn't go to killing people, period. If we spent half the money we did on our military on building sustainable housing, perhaps we might actually progress beyond the point of "DEM A TURRIST" and start to focus on internal affairs.


If civilians with patriotic ties should be permitted to arm themselves sufficiently to represent a civilian military, loosely mirroring Switzerland or Israel on a non federal, non state level, then yes, but money from somewhere needs to be spent on providing a nations people with means to resist occupation and oppression, even if that means my neighbor has a rifle and his boss has a cannon - each according to his economic means.

But if the people have no means of defending themselves from foreign marauders, then you are advocating the worst kind of tragedy, and you should seek therapy immediately.
Do you honestly think fighting wars in their countries is stopping them from attacking us? Internal guard. Stonewall them from attacking us. We're already doing it, all we need to do is pull out.

Leave the middle east to fight amongst itself. Physician, heal thyself.
Suicidesoldier#1's avatar

Fanatical Zealot

Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Tuah
Suicidesoldier#1
Drones are pretty awesome, they put a pilot out of harm's way so, A, the pilot doesn't get killed, and B, sine a drone can essentially, suicide itself, civilians don't need to die if a pilot makes a hasty move in self preservation, freaks out etc. since it's away from all that.

You may *believe*, based on obviously flimsy evidence, that drones are killing the wrong targets (like for instance, Pakistan said we still haven't killed Osama Bin Laden, and that he was just some random guy) but drones themselves aren't inherently evil.


Perhaps just like guns.

Why you keep focusing on drones, it's probs cause you're crazy.


Ah, what's that old adage?

It's not about dying for your country. It's about making some other poor b*****d die for his.


Mhhm. xp

Or their cause, in this case. xp


Truth be told, I'd love it if it was only robots doing the fighting, in the middle of a giant desert; I think this might solve a lot of our problems.

I even have ideas as how to make it about giant fighting robot birds, that's televised, with the terrorists going home and saying "ahh, we were defeated, by next year, we will prove we are the greatest!"


After all, it's technology that has, over the years, made mankind great, so the greatest machine would prove this. xp


That's really the issue I have with them; not that we use technology to avoid sacrificing the lives of our soldiers, but that without that sacrifice our country is simply imposing its will over others at no cost.

But then again, I suppose what constitutes fairness pertains entirely to the subject matter. A boxing match is a fair fight. Murder of innocents is unfair regardless of the means; guns, airplanes, or even fists for that matter.

Using a gun against an unarmed burglar (who for argument's sake is going to murder someone with his hands) is unfairness on the burglar's part, and the fact that a gun is involved is irrelevant at that point.


Eh, our country should be imposing our will at no cost.


If we really are spreading truth, justice, and the American way, and stopping terrorists while trying to spare as many innocent people as possible and then rebuilding their country, at not cost to us, fantastic.


I mean, what's this big thing you always hear about; war is really is expensive and causes PTSD and is terrible etc.

Hell, if we can remove most of this as a problem, and even potentially death, it's like, not even war anymore. So it's great! blaugh


This is what I'm worried about. I may not be fond of Islam (extremists in particular), but I feel America is far too unhealthy and conflicted a society to have any worldly opinions.

We are memes colliding like membranes. And I'm not pleased with ours.


Eh; I think everyone agrees that murder is wrong.

We are in Iraq and Afghanistan, guarding opium fields, even though in our country it's illegal.


We don't seem to be imposing our will so much as, imposing the will of the local populace since they'd have trouble defending themselves; setting up ways to vote, redoing it, making sure woman vote and there's no corruption etc. Perhaps democracy and rights and whatnot can be seen as American, but honestly I believe, like the majority of people, that it's human rights.

So I'm not too concerned. Maybe if we put up 500 McDonald's and a couple of walmarts I'd be questionable, or say banned certain things, but since we aren't I'm okay with it, we're fairly professional. xp

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