Chelsea Manning is my hero. What to do with ISIS.

What should be done?

Attack ISIS with military force	21.4%	[ 6 ]
Set ISIS up in a controlled territory and allow them to fail	7.1%	[ 2 ]
Nothing, we should leave the Midle East to govern its own affairs	71.4%	[ 20 ]
Total Votes:			[ 28 ]

[Lord of the Vine]

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Two wrongs to not justify war crimes in international war.

Makes killing the enemy a lot less complicated though.

And ain't the point of war to hit the enemy hard enough that they are unable or unwilling to strike back? Stands to reason that if you can out-violence them they'll back down.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling to some extent, because honestly, doesn't that kind of rhetoric disturb you to a certain extent?

You would be surprised how often people assume I'm trolling when I start advocating for fighting a war like a war.

Fighting a war shouldn't also entail advocating the defilement of human rights and the desecration of international law smile

There are ways that this is possible without destroying either. What those ways are, I'm not really sure.

[N3bu]

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Two wrongs to not justify war crimes in international war.

Makes killing the enemy a lot less complicated though.

And ain't the point of war to hit the enemy hard enough that they are unable or unwilling to strike back? Stands to reason that if you can out-violence them they'll back down.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling to some extent, because honestly, doesn't that kind of rhetoric disturb you to a certain extent?

You would be surprised how often people assume I'm trolling when I start advocating for fighting a war like a war.

Fighting a war shouldn't also entail advocating the defilement of human rights and the desecration of international law smile

But it also shouldn't be about winning the hearts and minds either. At the least we need to fight this s**t properly. Loosen up on the red tape noose we have around our neck and kick some teeth in properly. If we put boots on the ground and put our people in harms way, we MUST NOT ******** around with "rules of engagement". We fight the fight right, or not at all.

And considering who we are fighting (A terrorist organization with no affiliation with a single recognized nation) we should be allowed to loosen our rules with engaging them.

You tried that once. It didn't work. That's why the US often tries the soft approach these days, because the hard approach already failed.

[I AM R U]

Dion Necurat

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Two wrongs to not justify war crimes in international war.

Makes killing the enemy a lot less complicated though.

And ain't the point of war to hit the enemy hard enough that they are unable or unwilling to strike back? Stands to reason that if you can out-violence them they'll back down.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling to some extent, because honestly, doesn't that kind of rhetoric disturb you to a certain extent?

You would be surprised how often people assume I'm trolling when I start advocating for fighting a war like a war.

Fighting a war shouldn't also entail advocating the defilement of human rights and the desecration of international law smile

There are ways that this is possible without destroying either. What those ways are, I'm not really sure.

A good start might in not advocating the mass killing of both civilans and combatants.

[I AM R U]

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Silvia Crow

I AM R U

Two wrongs to not justify war crimes in international war.

Makes killing the enemy a lot less complicated though.

And ain't the point of war to hit the enemy hard enough that they are unable or unwilling to strike back? Stands to reason that if you can out-violence them they'll back down.

I'm just going to assume you're trolling to some extent, because honestly, doesn't that kind of rhetoric disturb you to a certain extent?

You would be surprised how often people assume I'm trolling when I start advocating for fighting a war like a war.

Fighting a war shouldn't also entail advocating the defilement of human rights and the desecration of international law smile

But it also shouldn't be about winning the hearts and minds either. At the least we need to fight this s**t properly. Loosen up on the red tape noose we have around our neck and kick some teeth in properly. If we put boots on the ground and put our people in harms way, we MUST NOT ******** around with "rules of engagement". We fight the fight right, or not at all.

And considering who we are fighting (A terrorist organization with no affiliation with a single recognized nation) we should be allowed to loosen our rules with engaging them.

But that's just a slipperly slope argument - it echos ISIS's rhetoric and not only will not work (as it hasn't in the past) but makes one just as bad as, if not worse than (as arguably a nation that has signed up to conform to international law and seeks to claim the moral high ground through the use of human rights language should know better), ISIS. There are no benefits to such an approach, aside from some brief sense of satisfaction of wiping out one's enemies - which is hardly a good thing anyway, one could argue.

[pockybot]

People call Manning a traitor, but look at this Obama administration. They openly funded, armed and supported the jihadists in Libya along with US air power to topple Ghadafi in Libya after Ghadafi stopped being buddy buddy with the US, UK, France and Italy...and now look. Islamist militants have completely taken over Libya and plunged it into chaos.

THEN the US through Saudi Arabia, Qatar, Kuwait, Turkey and the UAE were funding, arming and backing the so called "moderate" al Qaeda (sorry there is no moderate jihadis) in Syria, trying to topple Assad and trying to trick the public into going along with war against the Bashir al-Assad regime.

NOW all the sudden, there's this "ISIS" group that was finally the perfect pretext for the US and their anti Shiite wahhabi pals Saudi Arabia(who was behind 9/11 and al Qaeda and ISIS and all this crap), Qatar(main ISIS financier), etc are doing these alleged airstrikes on shadowy Islamist targets in Syria to "thwart ISIS". The whole thing is a ruse to topple Assad. The US could have wiped out "ISIS" a year ago but let them take over Iraq and part of Syria.

And what's with Israel? Assad is attacking and bombing al Qaeda and ISIS, and what happens? Israel shoots down a Syrian fighter jet attacking ISIS and then has been caught helping al-Nursa rebels and attacking Assad positions.

The whole thing stinks to high heaven. Oh and Obama wants to spend half a billion of US taxpayer dollars to fund/arm/train the "good" jihadists? There is no "moderate" terrorists!
These Republicans and Democrats are hoodwinking us. Their best pals Qatar, Saudi Arabia, Turkey, etc are BEHIND ISIS!

[pockybot]

I AM R U

Xiam

washu_2004

And how will they stop them exporting oil to arm up and take yet more territory.

As much as I hate to admit it... yeah, in this way oil is a reason why we need to act. Everybody nowadays needs it (way to go on that alternative energy thing guys) and if they manage to obtain it, and sell it, it's going to be really hard for them to be stopped. Any insurgents within their own population will be brought down with superior firepower. Really, all that will happen is that war will come, in some form, and nothing will be shown for it but more dead innocents.

The problem is that for every time they're pushed down, a more extreme version just forms... Plenty of people obviously believe ISIS in the right, and a brutal suppression of them merely reinforces that view, and pushes such people to be more and more extreme. I don't agree that just letting them have their way is the answer, but would advocate for an alternative to a "shock and awe" military response.

Sunni Islamist jihadis are acceptable and ok in the minds of the US government and their terror funding Arab allies(Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc) when they are attacking dictators they don't like(Syria, Libya, etc) but when these proxy forces then get out of line, oh...boy, call in all the forces, it's war time!

How do people not remember these were the SAME hardcore al Qaeda jihadists we were backing through Saudi Arabia a year ago to take down Bashir al-Assad?

Obama and Mccain ONLY started talking about ISIS when they started attacking Kurdish forces and moving toward the CIA city of Erbil in Northern Iraq. Before then the US had no interest in stopping them.

Anyone remember Obama and Kerry's "Red Line" against Assad a year ago?

[I AM R U]

pockybot

I AM R U

Xiam

washu_2004

And how will they stop them exporting oil to arm up and take yet more territory.

As much as I hate to admit it... yeah, in this way oil is a reason why we need to act. Everybody nowadays needs it (way to go on that alternative energy thing guys) and if they manage to obtain it, and sell it, it's going to be really hard for them to be stopped. Any insurgents within their own population will be brought down with superior firepower. Really, all that will happen is that war will come, in some form, and nothing will be shown for it but more dead innocents.

The problem is that for every time they're pushed down, a more extreme version just forms... Plenty of people obviously believe ISIS in the right, and a brutal suppression of them merely reinforces that view, and pushes such people to be more and more extreme. I don't agree that just letting them have their way is the answer, but would advocate for an alternative to a "shock and awe" military response.

Sunni Islamist jihadis are acceptable and ok in the minds of the US government and their terror funding Arab allies(Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc) when they are attacking dictators they don't like(Syria, Libya, etc) but when these proxy forces then get out of line, oh...boy, call in all the forces, it's war time!

How do people not remember these were the SAME hardcore al Qaeda jihadists we were backing through Saudi Arabia a year ago to take down Bashir al-Assad?

Obama and Mccain ONLY started talking about ISIS when they started attacking Kurdish forces and moving toward the CIA city of Erbil in Northern Iraq. Before then the US had no interest in stopping them.

Anyone remember Obama and Kerry's "Red Line" against Assad a year ago?

Plenty of terrorist s were trained by America, to fight against Soviet occupiers during the Cold War - weird how short people's memories are...

[pockybot]

shadowswhiskers13 -

My idea:
1) Talk to Israel.
2) Get them to have their special forces to make a plan on how to work with our Navy Seals.
3) Have them hit the ISIS training centers.
4) Have them destroy the head of ISIS.

Um, Israel is shooting down Syrian planes who are attacking ISIS and al-Nursa positions
Israel is tending to wounded Syrian jihadists and attacking Assad positions, anti aircraft batteries and other Syrian forces.

Sometimes I wonder whose side Israel is on...as they sure as hell don't seem to be doing anything to fight Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham

[pockybot]

I AM R U

pockybot

I AM R U

Xiam

washu_2004

And how will they stop them exporting oil to arm up and take yet more territory.

As much as I hate to admit it... yeah, in this way oil is a reason why we need to act. Everybody nowadays needs it (way to go on that alternative energy thing guys) and if they manage to obtain it, and sell it, it's going to be really hard for them to be stopped. Any insurgents within their own population will be brought down with superior firepower. Really, all that will happen is that war will come, in some form, and nothing will be shown for it but more dead innocents.

The problem is that for every time they're pushed down, a more extreme version just forms... Plenty of people obviously believe ISIS in the right, and a brutal suppression of them merely reinforces that view, and pushes such people to be more and more extreme. I don't agree that just letting them have their way is the answer, but would advocate for an alternative to a "shock and awe" military response.

Sunni Islamist jihadis are acceptable and ok in the minds of the US government and their terror funding Arab allies(Qatar, Saudi Arabia, UAE, etc) when they are attacking dictators they don't like(Syria, Libya, etc) but when these proxy forces then get out of line, oh...boy, call in all the forces, it's war time!

How do people not remember these were the SAME hardcore al Qaeda jihadists we were backing through Saudi Arabia a year ago to take down Bashir al-Assad?

Obama and Mccain ONLY started talking about ISIS when they started attacking Kurdish forces and moving toward the CIA city of Erbil in Northern Iraq. Before then the US had no interest in stopping them.

Anyone remember Obama and Kerry's "Red Line" against Assad a year ago?

Plenty of terrorist s were trained by America, to fight against Soviet occupiers during the Cold War - weird how short people's memories are...

Well that's the joke...the "blowback" of the anti Soviet CIA created radicalized Mujahadin took what, two decades to come back to bite us?

Here, it has only been two years. And I'm not entirely sure the US/Arab allies are truly against ISIS...since both are fighting to destroy the Syrian government and Iran.

I know I was posting online how foolish it was for Obama and the Machavelian neocons to be supporting and arming so called "moderate" al Qaeda to topple Libya and Syria as it was going to come back sooner than later. And instead of 20 years, it took 2 years.

I'm anti war, but Obama is deluded if he thinks air power alone will destroy "ISIS".
No boots on the ground? ISIS just today took over more towns and is inching toward controlling the Turkish/Syrian border.

And Bashir al Assad is no saint, I do believe he's killed countless civilians...but he tried bombing al Qaeda and ISIS fighters yesterday and got blown out of the sky by Israel.

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

pockybot

shadowswhiskers13 -

My idea:
1) Talk to Israel.
2) Get them to have their special forces to make a plan on how to work with our Navy Seals.
3) Have them hit the ISIS training centers.
4) Have them destroy the head of ISIS.

Um, Israel is shooting down Syrian planes who are attacking ISIS and al-Nursa positions
Israel is tending to wounded Syrian jihadists and attacking Assad positions, anti aircraft batteries and other Syrian forces.

Sometimes I wonder whose side Israel is on...as they sure as hell don't seem to be doing anything to fight Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham

Good points there, Israel is on the side that doesn't try to destroy them or their country. If you really need to convince them about ISIS, just show them the video where they kill other Muslims, then point out that ISIS kill anyone unlike themselves. That should get Israel to help us.

[N3bu]

pockybot

Well that's the joke...the "blowback" of the anti Soviet CIA created radicalized Mujahadin took what, two decades to come back to bite us?

The Mujaheddin is a mixed bag. The majority of them actually went on to be competent allies in the Northern Alliance and failed to fight off the Taliban, partly because the US stopped funding them when the Soviets pulled out.

But elements of the Muja were exported radical elements from places like Suadi and they did manage to leach off some of that support yes.

[Bogotanian]

It is strange and disconcerting that the US is attacking ISIS now, while about a year ago Obama was planning to air strike Assad (ISIS members would have been part of the rebels that they were planning to aid and arm). I read an article stating that this could indirectly aid Assad (he's at war with ISIS), which is a very curious year leap in alliance... something's not right with that

[pockybot]

shadowswhiskers13 -

pockybot

shadowswhiskers13 -

My idea:
1) Talk to Israel.
2) Get them to have their special forces to make a plan on how to work with our Navy Seals.
3) Have them hit the ISIS training centers.
4) Have them destroy the head of ISIS.

Um, Israel is shooting down Syrian planes who are attacking ISIS and al-Nursa positions
Israel is tending to wounded Syrian jihadists and attacking Assad positions, anti aircraft batteries and other Syrian forces.

Sometimes I wonder whose side Israel is on...as they sure as hell don't seem to be doing anything to fight Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham

Good points there, Israel is on the side that doesn't try to destroy them or their country. If you really need to convince them about ISIS, just show them the video where they kill other Muslims, then point out that ISIS kill anyone unlike themselves. That should get Israel to help us.

Oh they know. Hell ISIS will kill anyone. It's come out they routinely massacre their own Sunni populations in order to create a brutal Ivan the terrible legend. They simply pretend to be pressing a Sunni vs Shia rift, as it's been illustrated they hate everyone.

But everyone seems to be using this crisis for their own benefit. But it could also be a chance for one time enemies to put aside differences.
It's clear the Iraqi army is a joke. The 7000 strong female kurdish brigades alone are much more formidable as are the rest of the Kurdish fighters(and PKK Kurd "terrorists" wink
But Iran is incredibly formidable, yet the US doesn't want them involved. Only their Sunni Arab buddies.

The whole reason it seems there's even this horror show is because the US did a lot of things to worsen and sometimes exploit the sectarian rifts some years ago and continues to by having an Iranian shiite puppet in Baghdad. Anyways, I suspect these air bombings will not quite have the effect the US government was hoping for.

[pockybot]

Bogotanian

It is strange and disconcerting that the US is attacking ISIS now, while about a year ago Obama was planning to air strike Assad (ISIS members would have been part of the rebels that they were planning to aid and arm). I read an article stating that this could indirectly aid Assad (he's at war with ISIS), which is a very curious year leap in alliance... something's not right with that

300,000+ dead in Syria since 2011, and a lot of that can't simply be blamed on the rebel/jihadi groups. Which means Bashir al-Assad alone is responsible for a lot of the deaths. Yet now he seems to be welcoming the US and coalition strikes. Doesn't he know the US and Arab allies who all hate him could find a way to also attack him? Heck Israel just shot down one of his planes.
Everyone seems to be jockeying an angle in this crisis, as much as Obama/Kerry/Mccain want to believe they have all these "allies".

The US needs Iran if they want to push ISIS out of Iraq, as the Kurds can't do it alone. The Iranian Quds forces spent years killing a lot of US soldiers through proxy shiite militants, which is despicable. But they also cut their teeth fighting the US funded Saddam forces in the 1980's and are proven to be no nonsense.

Unlike the clown brigade known as the Iraqi military
http://www.cnn.com/2014/09/25/world/meast/iraq-isis-rout-questions/index.html?hpt=hp_t2

[shadowswhiskers13 -]

pockybot

shadowswhiskers13 -

pockybot

shadowswhiskers13 -

My idea:
1) Talk to Israel.
2) Get them to have their special forces to make a plan on how to work with our Navy Seals.
3) Have them hit the ISIS training centers.
4) Have them destroy the head of ISIS.

Um, Israel is shooting down Syrian planes who are attacking ISIS and al-Nursa positions
Israel is tending to wounded Syrian jihadists and attacking Assad positions, anti aircraft batteries and other Syrian forces.

Sometimes I wonder whose side Israel is on...as they sure as hell don't seem to be doing anything to fight Islamic State of Iraq and al-Sham

Good points there, Israel is on the side that doesn't try to destroy them or their country. If you really need to convince them about ISIS, just show them the video where they kill other Muslims, then point out that ISIS kill anyone unlike themselves. That should get Israel to help us.

Oh they know. Hell ISIS will kill anyone. It's come out they routinely massacre their own Sunni populations in order to create a brutal Ivan the terrible legend. They simply pretend to be pressing a Sunni vs Shia rift, as it's been illustrated they hate everyone.

But everyone seems to be using this crisis for their own benefit. But it could also be a chance for one time enemies to put aside differences.
It's clear the Iraqi army is a joke. The 7000 strong female kurdish brigades alone are much more formidable as are the rest of the Kurdish fighters(and PKK Kurd "terrorists" wink
But Iran is incredibly formidable, yet the US doesn't want them involved. Only their Sunni Arab buddies.

The whole reason it seems there's even this horror show is because the US did a lot of things to worsen and sometimes exploit the sectarian rifts some years ago and continues to by having an Iranian shiite puppet in Baghdad. Anyways, I suspect these air bombings will not quite have the effect the US government was hoping for.

I'm not necessarily thinking air bombings (Israel is quite good at surprise attacks on an enemy - I'm sure they'd find a better way than that type of attack)