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Kojima Michiyo's avatar

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Elraine Figarette
This scares the ******** out of me. It's eugenics, plain and simple. If this passes, then where do we draw the line? Do people start making determinations about whether or not older children are "suffering too much" from a birth defect? Teenagers? Adults? No thank you.


I was thinking about that too. You can't always tell how bad something is going to be until they're older. However, I do feel if it is determined at an early time that the child will definitely have too severe of issues to live normally, it really is more humane to never let them enter the world in the first place.

I'm not quite sure where I stand on terminating newborns. Currently, I believe it is law that once a person is born, they're protected, and they are their own individual since they no longer need to live within something else to survive.
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Then that's not an abortion, imo.
Mei tsuki7
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Highly immoral and actually murder. Abortion is not murder when the fetus in still in the body because it is not alive, nor able to survive on its own, (meaning, it cannot survive with out the nutrients, blood and heart of the mother, host... *) it is not murder, you cannot kill something that is not alive. But a baby, can, so killing it is killing a living person and it is murder.

I am happy I live in Canada because I can avoid all the stupidity and politics in the states regarding this issue.



(* though one could argue that in the late third trimester they could survive on their own i.e 'premies'... also it is obvious that late term abortions are highly dangerous and pointless unless there are pregnancy complications that risk the mother's life)


Technically, a fetus can survive outside of the womb at about 24 weeks with our current technology. That, in my view, should be the cut off for abortions.


I meant without technology. In today's anything can be kept 'alive'.
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I think rather than trying to think up fancy ideas about how to kill babies, people should concentrate more on advocating safer sex, safer pregnancies, and safer baby handling.

Personally, other than if the mother is at risk of death by giving birth... I don't think abortion is right. Especially if the baby is already born!
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Kojima Michiyo
So I came across an article today that surprised even me. An actual proposal for afterbirth abortion. Following the idea that even after someone is born that doesn't give them "personhood."

Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva
When circumstances occur after birth such that they would have justified abortion, what we call after-birth abortion should be permissible. … We propose to call this practice ‘after-birth abortion’, rather than ‘infanticide,’ to emphasize that the moral status of the individual killed is comparable with that of a fetus … rather than to that of a child. Therefore, we claim that killing a newborn could be ethically permissible in all the circumstances where abortion would be. Such circumstances include cases where the newborn has the potential to have an (at least) acceptable life, but the well-being of the family is at risk.


There was one part though that I didn't find as extreme.

Alberto Giubilini and Francesca Minerva
An examination of 18 European registries reveals that between 2005 and 2009 only the 64% of Down's syndrome cases were diagnosed through prenatal testing. This percentage indicates that, considering only the European areas under examination, about 1700 infants were born with Down's syndrome without parents being aware of it before birth. Once these children are born, there is no choice for the parents but to keep the child, which sometimes is exactly what they would not have done if the disease had been diagnosed before birth.


Now, I'm not sure about terminating newborns with Down's syndrome, cause I'm pretty sure this girl who works at our local convenience store is diagnosed with it. Other than having slight speech issues and not always understanding things (and a sense of naivety) she's no different than anyone else working there. She gets her job done and has made no more mistakes than someone without DS. However, there are some illnesses out there that leave some people in a way that I don't know how else to explain but: they spend their life in a wheel chair, depending forever on their parents to take care of them, staring off into space. Unable to communicate or do anything. Basically just a shell with some consciousness. Situations like that, I gotta say, I don't think terminating a newborn which you know will be like that the rest of it's life is wrong.

Addressing the crossed out part: I got autism mixed up with DS. I am so sorry for that mix up.. That girl I was talking about is probably autistic.

Source

I'm completely pro-choice, and I promote the right to an abortion. But as soon as a baby is born, it is a citizen with rights. That is infantcide, to kill a baby. A viable being. There is no excuse. Stupid people. >.> You should have made up your mind WAY before. Either you love your kid unconditionally no matter what it is (retarded, colored, female, male, etc..), or you don't want it.
I'm sorry but that's objectively murder.
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I accept the idea of infanticide up to the age of seven, because only then any semblance of self.
Elraine Figarette's avatar

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BaeKim
I accept the idea of infanticide up to the age of seven, because only then any semblance of self.
You're going to have to clarify this or back it up somehow, because as it stands it's completely asinine. I babysit five kids for five days out of the week, four of which are under the age of seven. They're all have very distinct personalities, including the youngest which isn't quite two yet. She can point herself out in pictures and in the mirror and recognize the image as herself.
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Unless the child is completely brain-dead, "after-birth abortion" is not something I can support. See, I'm pro-choice on the basis that women shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy. Once a woman gives birth, she's no longer pregnant. The child is no longer physically attached to her, and said child can be given up for adoption.
Clouddnine
I raged after reading that a few days ago. For numerous reasons, a baby is a baby, once its born into this world its breathing, it needs love and affection, they open their eyes for the first time and for most parents seeing their baby that first time is a beautiful experience. I cried for thirty minutes straight once I had my daughter, it was like looking at a little miricle. For anyone to MURDER a newborn because they dont consider them a person which they are or because the mother is a selfish b***h who wont try to take care of her baby or because she has goals doesnt value human life. That scares me. If now a newborn baby, who is innocent and pure isnt consider human. What is? Where does it end? Whats next? Will they want to kill people by race? Wealth? The fact they thought of this at all tells me they are black hearted murders. Im afraid of the world we live in were now babies dont have a value. Its crossing the line, Anyone who agrees with them is a murder, period! If they didnt want the baby, should of aborted it BEFORE birth.

I agree with you on this.
Kojima Michiyo's avatar

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Nyan_Derek
I'm completely pro-choice, and I promote the right to an abortion. But as soon as a baby is born, it is a citizen with rights. That is infantcide, to kill a baby. A viable being. There is no excuse. Stupid people. >.> You should have made up your mind WAY before. Either you love your kid unconditionally no matter what it is (retarded, colored, female, male, etc..), or you don't want it.


I'm pretty much on the side of mostly everyone else. Terminating a perfectly healthy newborn, while they may not be that different yet from a fetus mentally or whatever, to me just seems like it's really crossing a line. I understand when a newborn has an obvious disease that will cause it to suffer and not live a fulfilling life that termination (basically euthanasia) is probably the most humane thing to do. But terminating newborns just because you decided afterwards you really weren't ready to be a parent yet... well.. let's just say that's what we do to puppies at shelters when they need more room.
Kojima Michiyo's avatar

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marshmallowcreampie
Unless the child is completely brain-dead, "after-birth abortion" is not something I can support. See, I'm pro-choice on the basis that women shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy. Once a woman gives birth, she's no longer pregnant. The child is no longer physically attached to her, and said child can be given up for adoption.


I would go a slight step above "brain-dead." There really is no way for us to know whether an individual really would have wanted to live or not when they have a really mind crumbling disease. I remember way back when I was just a little kid there was this family that would go to our church that had a son who had to remain in a wheelchair. I don't know what disease he had, but it was some kind of severe retardation. He was very thin, from having never used his muscles in his legs. He couldn't talk, but could make noise. Could look around and interact with the world, but couldn't socialize or communicate really. He was an adult, and his parents were elderly, and there they were giving him their all. I felt sorry for them, but looking back I do admire their strength. Situations like that though, I know if I were their son, I wouldn't want to live like that. It's no life. You can't enjoy anything.. I dunno. I just feel it would have been more humane to have "put him down" when he was a newborn. For everyone involved.
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Kojima Michiyo
marshmallowcreampie
Unless the child is completely brain-dead, "after-birth abortion" is not something I can support. See, I'm pro-choice on the basis that women shouldn't be forced to go through pregnancy. Once a woman gives birth, she's no longer pregnant. The child is no longer physically attached to her, and said child can be given up for adoption.


I would go a slight step above "brain-dead." There really is no way for us to know whether an individual really would have wanted to live or not when they have a really mind crumbling disease. I remember way back when I was just a little kid there was this family that would go to our church that had a son who had to remain in a wheelchair. I don't know what disease he had, but it was some kind of severe retardation. He was very thin, from having never used his muscles in his legs. He couldn't talk, but could make noise. Could look around and interact with the world, but couldn't socialize or communicate really. He was an adult, and his parents were elderly, and there they were giving him their all. I felt sorry for them, but looking back I do admire their strength. Situations like that though, I know if I were their son, I wouldn't want to live like that. It's no life. You can't enjoy anything.. I dunno. I just feel it would have been more humane to have "put him down" when he was a newborn. For everyone involved.


Yeah, if someone is a vegetable with no hope of improving, is there really any point in making them continue? They aren't truly "living" in a metaphorical sense, they're more just existing.

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