A question for those against abortion

[Rayne Nightrose]

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

I think it's hilarious that there's even a debate about this. Maybe the anti-abortion people would like to pay all the hospital bills for people that nearly died having illegal abortions.
I think it's obvious that people are going to have abortions whether it's legal or not. Sorry, but not everyone cares about your "morals." lol Abortion should be available at a cheap cost to every woman, so she doesn't have to live in fear. And anyone that says otherwise is being unrealistic.

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem here is, the only abortions "available at a cheap cost" include saline and clothes hangers, which can both kill the mother.

"Available at a cheap cost" = / = "In a back alley" lol

Who said it did?

[I got bored one day]

x Sarnath x

Are you kidding me?

No.

Quote:

"Be a good girl and take your birth control!" You just made me laugh out loud. Are you aware that birth control fails?

Yes, and the failure rate is... like less than 1%. Odds are in your favor that it won't fail during the 8 days you're actually fertile.

Quote:

Even if you take the pills at the same time every day, there's a chance you will get pregnant. Even if you use a condom properly each time, there's a chance it'll break.

Yes. The billionth of a chance that pregnancy will ensue through proper use is definitely something I am very fearful about. Obviously, and I mean obviously, most cases of unwanted pregnancy are due to contraception failure rather than misuse or unsteady doses and a shitty memory.

Quote:

So you think that if you go through all the precautions to have safe sex... If you take birth control, use a condom, but somehow manage to get pregnant... You should be forced to keep this child you don't even want?

We'll deal with that if it comes. I assure you, it won't, but if it does happens that many of the unwanted pregnancies are indeed due to failure on the part of the chemicals and friction I'd gladly reconsider.

Quote:

I'm glad the government is more fair and rational than this. = / You might think it's wrong, but what's MORE wrong is to impose your morals on other people who want nothing to do with them.

I'm sure you've never had to actually go into an ethical debate about abortion; you wouldn't believe how badly it turns out for the pro-side. It rapidly falls apart, esp. considering that most people misuse the cases that are historic to the legalization in the first place.

[x Sarnath x]

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

I think it's hilarious that there's even a debate about this. Maybe the anti-abortion people would like to pay all the hospital bills for people that nearly died having illegal abortions.
I think it's obvious that people are going to have abortions whether it's legal or not. Sorry, but not everyone cares about your "morals." lol Abortion should be available at a cheap cost to every woman, so she doesn't have to live in fear. And anyone that says otherwise is being unrealistic.

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem here is, the only abortions "available at a cheap cost" include saline and clothes hangers, which can both kill the mother.

"Available at a cheap cost" = / = "In a back alley" lol

Who said it did?

I didn't mean "Back alley abortions should be available at a cheap cost to all women." I meant "safe abortions should be available to all women so they don't have to have back alley abortions."

[0-gitaroo_man-0]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

0-gitaroo_man-0

How could you murder something that isn't born?

Exactly. You maliciously slaughter it for self-righteous selfish reasons instead.

Quote:

I think the thing that sways me the most is concsiousness. To me this is what really makes something living and I am currently for abortion but if I knew that a featus was conscious... then I may be inclined to change my view.

... You go unconscious if you fall asleep, you know. I think you might mean being "self-aware", which is totally a little different.

Quote:

The pope has said (I don't know which one) that you gain consciousness at birth, some believe it's gained as you grow but some have discovered slight signs of it as a featus. What do you think?

I would assume it's a brain function so it probably shows up during development. Memory just doesn't kick in so while you may be conscious it serves no long-term purpose.

I can tell i'm really not going to like you -_-

And you don't go unconscious when you are asleep that's insane, you're still fully aware of your sorroundings. And i'm talking about the dualist theory that most people believe in... that mind is seperate from and above the brain.

[Rayne Nightrose]

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

I think it's hilarious that there's even a debate about this. Maybe the anti-abortion people would like to pay all the hospital bills for people that nearly died having illegal abortions.
I think it's obvious that people are going to have abortions whether it's legal or not. Sorry, but not everyone cares about your "morals." lol Abortion should be available at a cheap cost to every woman, so she doesn't have to live in fear. And anyone that says otherwise is being unrealistic.

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem here is, the only abortions "available at a cheap cost" include saline and clothes hangers, which can both kill the mother.

"Available at a cheap cost" = / = "In a back alley" lol

Who said it did?

I didn't mean "Back alley abortions should be available at a cheap cost to all women." I meant "safe abortions should be available to all women so they don't have to have back alley abortions."

Let me rephrase; it is going to be expensive to get an abortion no matter what. You are thinking unrealistically. The equipment costs money, and I doubt any reputable doctor would give an abortion with no profit.

[x Sarnath x]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

x Sarnath x

Are you kidding me?

No.

Quote:

"Be a good girl and take your birth control!" You just made me laugh out loud. Are you aware that birth control fails?

Yes, and the failure rate is... like less than 1%. Odds are in your favor that it won't fail during the 8 days you're actually fertile.

Quote:

Even if you take the pills at the same time every day, there's a chance you will get pregnant. Even if you use a condom properly each time, there's a chance it'll break.

Yes. The billionth of a chance that pregnancy will ensue through proper use is definitely something I am very fearful about. Obviously, and I mean obviously, most cases of unwanted pregnancy are due to contraception failure rather than misuse or unsteady doses and a shitty memory.

Quote:

So you think that if you go through all the precautions to have safe sex... If you take birth control, use a condom, but somehow manage to get pregnant... You should be forced to keep this child you don't even want?

We'll deal with that if it comes. I assure you, it won't, but if it does happens that many of the unwanted pregnancies are indeed due to failure on the part of the chemicals and friction I'd gladly reconsider.

Quote:

I'm glad the government is more fair and rational than this. = / You might think it's wrong, but what's MORE wrong is to impose your morals on other people who want nothing to do with them.

I'm sure you've never had to actually go into an ethical debate about abortion; you wouldn't believe how badly it turns out for the pro-side. It rapidly falls apart, esp. considering that most people misuse the cases that are historic to the legalization in the first place.

I just don't understand why people think abortion should be illegal.
Talk about misusing the cases... Don't make me go on that site and find the pictures of girls who died alone in hotel rooms because they perforated their bowels by shoving a hanger in at the wrong angle.

It's true, whether it's an overused argument or not. People WILL have abortions either way. People WILL die. So it's better to let them have them in a controlled environment, done by a real doctor.
Honestly, pretty much all the women I know are pro-choice. Do you realize how scary it is to think about having an unwanted baby living inside you? I don't know about you, but that idea terrifies me. And don't even say it... Don't even go there. Don't tell me not to have sex like all the other pro-life people do.
I don't. That's how scared I am of pregnancy. It repulses me so much that I avoid sex with men entirely.

But not all tokophobic women do this. And to some woman, to bare a child to term would drive them crazy. It's a true medical reason for NEEDING an abortion. They have a fear and a disgust that they can't control - Something no man would understand.

[I got bored one day]

0-gitaroo_man-0

I can tell i'm really not going to like you -_-

Don't be like that!

Quote:

And you don't go unconscious when you are asleep that's insane, you're still fully aware of your sorroundings.

Are you constantly aware when you're sleeping? I'm not. I know a lot of people who aren't. Sleep is a little more complex than this, to be honest, but at the same time you are generally considered unconscious particularly because while you can be awakened you are actually not aware, esp. in deeper levels of sleep.

Quote:

And i'm talking about the dualist theory that most people believe in... that mind is seperate from and above the brain.

Um... I am almost sure that even from a doctor's perspective the mind and body are recognized as different; the mind has changed a bit in concept but has never really been in the body. The concept that they are interwoven is actually new. So we agree!

[Nonesuch Solo]

(OP--If you're going to call them Anti-Choice, can they call you Anti-Life?)

Jaishirri

Rayne Nightrose

The20

Since when does childbirth cause a trauma?

I'm guessing she is talking about special circumstances.

Always. Whether the mother has a possitive or a negative birthing experience, her body undergoes immence trauma. That trauma can be physical: rupture of membranes, tears in the v****a walls, dilation of the cervix, descent of the baby, or that trauma can be psychological: extreme stress resulting from worry, pain, life-threatening situation (of which child birth is).

Wow, I guess the women who have positive birth experiences are just lying then? rolleyes

x Sarnath x

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem with this argument is that many lifers believe that the unborn is the victim here. It's not like having bright pink hair or something where you can honestly say "Don't like it? Don't do it." This is an issue, to them, where there is an unborn victim of violence that does not have its own voice.

Seriously. That's like telling a PeTA member "Don't like the fur industry skinning critters alive? Don't buy furs!" as if they should ignore the fact that it still happens and is still just as wrong in their minds.



Isn't it more empowering to women to encourage proper use of preventative measures to help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place than saying "Be afraid! Be very, very afraid! Your frail female bodies can easily become pregnant and this will damage them irreparably! Be AFRAID, women! But don't worry, we'll come to the rescue after you have to deal with the emotional trauma of the pregnancy scare, the terrifying period of wondering whether to tell your partner or not, and god forbid you're a minor and have to worry about your parents finding out, hoo-boy! Yes, we're more concerned that we can help you AFTER you go through peeing on a stick in secret and crying because you don't want a baby yet, you don't want to give up your life yet, how could this have happened, you were so careful (or were you careless and feel even more guilty?). We'll help you, us, the saviors of frail, pregnancy-prone womankind."

[x Sarnath x]

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

I think it's hilarious that there's even a debate about this. Maybe the anti-abortion people would like to pay all the hospital bills for people that nearly died having illegal abortions.
I think it's obvious that people are going to have abortions whether it's legal or not. Sorry, but not everyone cares about your "morals." lol Abortion should be available at a cheap cost to every woman, so she doesn't have to live in fear. And anyone that says otherwise is being unrealistic.

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem here is, the only abortions "available at a cheap cost" include saline and clothes hangers, which can both kill the mother.

"Available at a cheap cost" = / = "In a back alley" lol

Who said it did?

I didn't mean "Back alley abortions should be available at a cheap cost to all women." I meant "safe abortions should be available to all women so they don't have to have back alley abortions."

Let me rephrase; it is going to be expensive to get an abortion no matter what. You are thinking unrealistically. The equipment costs money, and I doubt any reputable doctor would give an abortion with no profit.

Um, are you aware that insurance covers abortion for a lot of people? And I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. SHOULD is the key word. I didn't say it IS. I said it SHOULD. Ah, in a perfect world. People would be able to read, and safe abortion would be cheap and affordable for everybody.

[Nonesuch Solo]

x Sarnath x

Ah, in a perfect world. People would be able to read, and safe abortion would be cheap and affordable for everybody.

(In a perfect world, wouldn't abortion be ********? I don't know about you, but unwanted pregnancies are not part of my vision of utopia.)

[I got bored one day]

x Sarnath x

I just don't understand why people think abortion should be illegal.
Talk about misusing the cases... Don't make me go on that site and find the pictures of girls who died alone in hotel rooms because they perforated their bowels by shoving a hanger in at the wrong angle.

I fail to see how people who opt self-surgery are a strong case for the legalization of abortion. It's what witches and type B are for. You have sex and feel you may have been unsafe get type B from your local hospital. They are legally obligated to give it to you after all.

Quote:

It's true, whether it's an overused argument or not. People WILL have abortions either way. People WILL die. So it's better to let them have them in a controlled environment, done by a real doctor.

Eventuality is a poor argument for a few reasons:

1. It's practically universal.

2. It's usually an appeal to emotion or fear.

3. It doesn't solve the fundamental problem at hand.

Reversable sterilization is a far better option, given at birth, and removed when necessary. Right? Yet! the same people who are pro-choice are anti-sterilziation, and the name of the game here isn't reason, it's just free choice.

If anything abortions are unlike most other procedures in many, many ways. They are relatively immediate, unlike other major surgical decisions, and they pose no particular health purpose to either person in normal cases.

Quite interesting really.

Quote:

Honestly, pretty much all the women I know are pro-choice.

The build-up...

Quote:

Do you realize how scary it is to think about having an unwanted baby living inside you? I don't know about you, but that idea terrifies me. And don't even say it...

The admittance of fear...

Quote:

Don't even go there. Don't tell me not to have sex like all the other pro-life people do. I don't. That's how scared I am of pregnancy. It repulses me so much that I avoid sex with men entirely.

Culminating in the obvious paranoia.

Essentially you are not arguing for anything other than self-comfort. Your fear is not logical and it is causing your reasoning abilities to decay on the issue. This went from the issue to being about your psychological fears. I figured, esp. with how the approaches were made.

Quote:

But not all tokophobic women do this. And to some woman, to bare a child to term would drive them crazy. It's a true medical reason for NEEDING an abortion. They have a fear and a disgust that they can't control - Something no man would understand.

I'm sure men wouldn't. Fortunately these things are rare, and rarities have exceptions, but making a general rule of something that applies very rarely seems awkward when it doesn't protect the populace in any specifically targeted manner, no?

Ethically abortion makes no sense. Morally it has to, and morals are what has to carry it through.

[Rayne Nightrose]

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

Rayne Nightrose

x Sarnath x

"Available at a cheap cost" = / = "In a back alley" lol

Who said it did?

I didn't mean "Back alley abortions should be available at a cheap cost to all women." I meant "safe abortions should be available to all women so they don't have to have back alley abortions."

Let me rephrase; it is going to be expensive to get an abortion no matter what. You are thinking unrealistically. The equipment costs money, and I doubt any reputable doctor would give an abortion with no profit.

Um, are you aware that insurance covers abortion for a lot of people? And I don't think you understand what I'm trying to say here. SHOULD is the key word. I didn't say it IS. I said it SHOULD. Ah, in a perfect world. People would be able to read, and safe abortion would be cheap and affordable for everybody.

But a perfect world does not exist and "what-ifs" get us nowhere.

And as for insurance, did you realize a lot of people DON'T have it?

[x Sarnath x]

x Sarnath x

So what if "killing a baby" is being "selfish?" Don't do it yourself if it bothers you, Sorry, but not every girl wants to get down on her knees in the kitchen and hang up her career plans to give birth to a baby she doesn't want.

The problem with this argument is that many lifers believe that the unborn is the victim here. It's not like having bright pink hair or something where you can honestly say "Don't like it? Don't do it." This is an issue, to them, where there is an unborn victim of violence that does not have its own voice.

Seriously. That's like telling a PeTA member "Don't like the fur industry skinning critters alive? Don't buy furs!" as if they should ignore the fact that it still happens and is still just as wrong in their minds.



Isn't it more empowering to women to encourage proper use of preventative measures to help prevent unwanted pregnancies in the first place than saying "Be afraid! Be very, very afraid! Your frail female bodies can easily become pregnant and this will damage them irreparably! Be AFRAID, women! But don't worry, we'll come to the rescue after you have to deal with the emotional trauma of the pregnancy scare, the terrifying period of wondering whether to tell your partner or not, and god forbid you're a minor and have to worry about your parents finding out, hoo-boy! Yes, we're more concerned that we can help you AFTER you go through peeing on a stick in secret and crying because you don't want a baby yet, you don't want to give up your life yet, how could this have happened, you were so careful (or were you careless and feel even more guilty?). We'll help you, us, the saviors of frail, pregnancy-prone womankind."


Yeah, but what if you simply don't care about the unborn? It's a tiny little thing that belongs to no one but you and your partner. If you reject it from your life, why is this an issue to other people? They can have it if they want. lol
You might say "But what if you're a murderer and you don't care about the person you killed?" It isn't the same. This baby could potentially ******** up a girl's life. And nature is inherently unfair. It's the woman that has to go through with it. It's the girl that has to ruin her body and sacrifice her dignity. And to be forced to have a baby when it's the last thing you want... I really can't think of anything more humiliating.

It's an unwanted guest in your own body. Something living in you, feeding off you. I know mothers are portrayed as being "caring" and "loving" and all that s**t by the movies/books, but what about women who simply don't want a baby and don't give a ********?

There's a simple solution... It's already legal, and it's going to stay that way. xP

[I got bored one day]

x Sarnath x

There's a simple solution... It's already legal, and it's going to stay that way. xP

The fact that you lack a defense for the concept is what makes me weary of the concept itself. Many things that should not be legal are. It does not make them right.

[x Sarnath x]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

x Sarnath x

I just don't understand why people think abortion should be illegal.
Talk about misusing the cases... Don't make me go on that site and find the pictures of girls who died alone in hotel rooms because they perforated their bowels by shoving a hanger in at the wrong angle.

I fail to see how people who opt self-surgery are a strong case for the legalization of abortion. It's what witches and type B are for. You have sex and feel you may have been unsafe get type B from your local hospital. They are legally obligated to give it to you after all.

Quote:

It's true, whether it's an overused argument or not. People WILL have abortions either way. People WILL die. So it's better to let them have them in a controlled environment, done by a real doctor.

Eventuality is a poor argument for a few reasons:

1. It's practically universal.

2. It's usually an appeal to emotion or fear.

3. It doesn't solve the fundamental problem at hand.

Reversable sterilization is a far better option, given at birth, and removed when necessary. Right? Yet! the same people who are pro-choice are anti-sterilziation, and the name of the game here isn't reason, it's just free choice.

If anything abortions are unlike most other procedures in many, many ways. They are relatively immediate, unlike other major surgical decisions, and they pose no particular health purpose to either person in normal cases.

Quite interesting really.

Quote:

Honestly, pretty much all the women I know are pro-choice.

The build-up...

Quote:

Do you realize how scary it is to think about having an unwanted baby living inside you? I don't know about you, but that idea terrifies me. And don't even say it...

The admittance of fear...

Quote:

Don't even go there. Don't tell me not to have sex like all the other pro-life people do. I don't. That's how scared I am of pregnancy. It repulses me so much that I avoid sex with men entirely.

Culminating in the obvious paranoia.

Essentially you are not arguing for anything other than self-comfort. Your fear is not logical and it is causing your reasoning abilities to decay on the issue. This went from the issue to being about your psychological fears. I figured, esp. with how the approaches were made.

Quote:

But not all tokophobic women do this. And to some woman, to bare a child to term would drive them crazy. It's a true medical reason for NEEDING an abortion. They have a fear and a disgust that they can't control - Something no man would understand.

I'm sure men wouldn't. Fortunately these things are rare, and rarities have exceptions, but making a general rule of something that applies very rarely seems awkward when it doesn't protect the populace in any specifically targeted manner, no?

Ethically abortion makes no sense. Morally it has to, and morals are what has to carry it through.

But we can't use Plan B! Oh noes, it might be a baby already! It might have a soul!

xP I know, I know. It PREVENTS fertilization, and the egg hasn't even united with the sperm yet. But I thought it sounded funny.

The point is, it's very important that abortion must remain legal. It would be catastrophic if it was illegal again. It would put woman back on the road to being second-class citizens. It gives girls a sense of control over their lives and their sexuality. You know, gives them the confidence to feel like something more than "baby makers."

I see nothing wrong with abortion, and even if I was interested in sex with men. my own life would be more important to me than the life of some stranger that has never even breathed before.

Abortion is a wonderful thing, and many women would agree. We aren't living in the middle ages anymore. People have some choice over what happens to their own bodies now. If you had an unsightly tumor growing on your face, wouldn't you want the option of having it cut off?