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Paramedico
GLBT
Paramedico
GLBT
deadguy


Yeah, but it's also your choice. It's like getting a tattoo and then complaining about the fact that you got stabbed with a needle.


No, it's like getting an infection from a piercing and being told that you should just have to wait it out and that you deserve it for getting your ears pierced.

And then the infection turns out to be a human being that will need you for the rest of its life.

That's a poor analogy.


I tried. emo His wasn't so hot, either. Nice avatar.

Why thank you. =) I enjoy the colorfulness of yours.
Aww, thanks! ^_^ At risk of getting off topic, are you an EMT in real life?
 
     


Someday, son, you might be as awesome as this picture.
Thank you so much, Tanzy!

Gil's birthday is 13.12.09. We're going to party~


The GLBTQ Support/Info Thread.
 
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

Bacteria are not the same as a human being. A human is never anything but that: a human. Even at different stages of development, even when they exist as only a single growing cell, they're just a human. And, because I have heard this argument before, I will tell you now that a developing fetus is not the same as, say, a random human cell because a single human cell, left alone, will not develop into a full human being; a fetus will, even when they are just a single cell.

Pregnancy is not permanently nor excessively harmful to the woman; it's a natural biological process that is well intended by the body--and the body does not generally do itself great harm by intent. By your logic, a parent should be allowed to kill their children for harming them; such as if a child hits a parent in the face with a hard toy.

Secondly, no, not all sex is consensual. But for some reason, violence in response to violence never quite seems like a very effective solution. Most pregnancies are not the result of rape, and for those that are, my heart goes out to the victim, but I still do not believe that killing anyone is ever acceptable for any reason.
      Sorry. Bad example. It was that the fetus can't feel pain, and can't think. Why should there be inflicted pain unto a person that can feel pain and can think? A fetus can become an adult. So can a sperm cell. So we should ban male masturbation because it causes sperm cells to die, right?

      Pregnancy itself is a biological process, and isn't entirely harmful to the woman. However, it does take time to occur. Carrying a baby takes time out of work, sleep, and deprives a woman of her rights to live her life as she wants to. It may disrupt her work, her education, and inflict social stigma upon her. Put that on top of pregnancy. A woman may be sacrificing her future because the law dictates that she can't have an abortion. Even after the pregnancy itself, if she chooses to keep her baby, instead of leaving it to adoption, there's more time and money required for a baby that was unwanted.

      I'll concede that violence shouldn't beget violence. However, is there any other alternatives (in case of rape) if the woman really doesn't want the baby? I mean, yes, there's always adoption, but that still requires time on the part of the woman to carry the baby. Time that she might might not necessarily be able to afford.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

You're mixing apples and oranges. A sperm cell, left by itself, will not become a human being; a developing fetus will.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. Even if that choice isn't recognized by the participants. You make a choice to have sex, you make a choice knowing the risks. Weigh the risks and the benefits, decide if the potential risk of pregnancy is outweighed by the benefit of not risking an unwanted pregnancy while you're working or in school.

Adoption is an option, abstinence is an option. The choice is the woman's.
      A fetus can't become a human without the woman. Just like a sperm can't become a fetus without the egg.

      Pregnancy, is not, for the most part, a choice. You can't chose for a sperm to fertilize an egg. You can choose to have sex, but you can't choose to become pregnant or not. You can do things to try to mitigate the chances, but you can't choose to become pregnant.

      The choice is the woman's? What happened to the man? A woman can become pregnant all by herself now? I've heard of primogenesis in sharks and chickens, but now it can happen to humans too?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

You're right, a fetus can't become a human without the mother, but unlike sperm and egg, there is already existent life; just like you or I require food and water to continue our lives.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. You can't control the finer mechanics, but you can very much choose for a sperm to fertilize an egg--by having sex. It's not a sured consequence, but it's a sured risk. You may not be able to choose to become pregnant, but barring rape, you can choose to not become pregnant.

While men definitely play an equal role as women in fertilization, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to have sex with him against her will (excepting rape). I encourage both men and women to abstain from sex if they are not willing to accept the risks that come with it. They both have an equal responsibility to be conscious of those risks, and understand that both of their lives will be affected by pregnancy; wanted or unwanted.
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
     
GLBT
Paramedico
GLBT
Paramedico
GLBT
deadguy


Yeah, but it's also your choice. It's like getting a tattoo and then complaining about the fact that you got stabbed with a needle.


No, it's like getting an infection from a piercing and being told that you should just have to wait it out and that you deserve it for getting your ears pierced.

And then the infection turns out to be a human being that will need you for the rest of its life.

That's a poor analogy.


I tried. emo His wasn't so hot, either. Nice avatar.

Why thank you. =) I enjoy the colorfulness of yours.
Aww, thanks! ^_^ At risk of getting off topic, are you an EMT in real life?

Yes I am, I'm an EMT-Intermediate. =) And I'm also in the middle of paramedic school right now.
 
     
 
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

You're mixing apples and oranges. A sperm cell, left by itself, will not become a human being; a developing fetus will.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. Even if that choice isn't recognized by the participants. You make a choice to have sex, you make a choice knowing the risks. Weigh the risks and the benefits, decide if the potential risk of pregnancy is outweighed by the benefit of not risking an unwanted pregnancy while you're working or in school.

Adoption is an option, abstinence is an option. The choice is the woman's.
      A fetus can't become a human without the woman. Just like a sperm can't become a fetus without the egg.

      Pregnancy, is not, for the most part, a choice. You can't chose for a sperm to fertilize an egg. You can choose to have sex, but you can't choose to become pregnant or not. You can do things to try to mitigate the chances, but you can't choose to become pregnant.

      The choice is the woman's? What happened to the man? A woman can become pregnant all by herself now? I've heard of primogenesis in sharks and chickens, but now it can happen to humans too?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

You're right, a fetus can't become a human without the mother, but unlike sperm and egg, there is already existent life; just like you or I require food and water to continue our lives.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. You can't control the finer mechanics, but you can very much choose for a sperm to fertilize an egg--by having sex. It's not a sured consequence, but it's a sured risk. You may not be able to choose to become pregnant, but barring rape, you can choose to not become pregnant.

While men definitely play an equal role as women in fertilization, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to have sex with him against her will (excepting rape). I encourage both men and women to abstain from sex if they are not willing to accept the risks that come with it. They both have an equal responsibility to be conscious of those risks, and understand that both of their lives will be affected by pregnancy; wanted or unwanted.
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif
     
Anaiira
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif


Actually all the mother does is provide food and water, if there was a way to do it outside the womb, the mother wouldn't be needed at all. So no the mother isn't needed, the food and water the mother provides is.

lolwut? Did you just compare this with a college exam? Ok then, it's sort of similar, only with the SAT you are only encouraged to guess if you think you can get it right, that is by narrowing the choices. That compares to contraception. You are only encouraged to have sex with contraception. In this analogue you are still allowed to guess if you narrow down, just like if you aren't. Just like you are allowed to have sex with or without contraception, but it increases the chance of a favorable outcome, in this case described as not getting pregnant as compared to getting pregnant. In this case, unlike the SAT where if you get it wrong you are penalized in any case whether or not you narrowed it down, you would like that you can guess but if you narrowed it down or not, for you to get a freebie/do over. This compares to if you used contractpetion, or even if you didn't, for you to be able to get an abortion and not get penalized. In this case, the analogy you chose doesn't serve you, because whether or not you narrowed it down or not, if you gussed wrong, you still get penalized and so would you still get pregnant with no "do over" in the form of abortion, if you take your analogy to a logical conclusion.

Tl;DR? You don't want to use this analogy it doesn't serve your side or purpose.
 
     
 
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

You're mixing apples and oranges. A sperm cell, left by itself, will not become a human being; a developing fetus will.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. Even if that choice isn't recognized by the participants. You make a choice to have sex, you make a choice knowing the risks. Weigh the risks and the benefits, decide if the potential risk of pregnancy is outweighed by the benefit of not risking an unwanted pregnancy while you're working or in school.

Adoption is an option, abstinence is an option. The choice is the woman's.
      A fetus can't become a human without the woman. Just like a sperm can't become a fetus without the egg.

      Pregnancy, is not, for the most part, a choice. You can't chose for a sperm to fertilize an egg. You can choose to have sex, but you can't choose to become pregnant or not. You can do things to try to mitigate the chances, but you can't choose to become pregnant.

      The choice is the woman's? What happened to the man? A woman can become pregnant all by herself now? I've heard of primogenesis in sharks and chickens, but now it can happen to humans too?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

You're right, a fetus can't become a human without the mother, but unlike sperm and egg, there is already existent life; just like you or I require food and water to continue our lives.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. You can't control the finer mechanics, but you can very much choose for a sperm to fertilize an egg--by having sex. It's not a sured consequence, but it's a sured risk. You may not be able to choose to become pregnant, but barring rape, you can choose to not become pregnant.

While men definitely play an equal role as women in fertilization, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to have sex with him against her will (excepting rape). I encourage both men and women to abstain from sex if they are not willing to accept the risks that come with it. They both have an equal responsibility to be conscious of those risks, and understand that both of their lives will be affected by pregnancy; wanted or unwanted.
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

It does not leech nutrients, but is provided them by the mother's own body. It doesn't have the capability to take from the mother by force; the mother's own body willingly provides it to the fetus. Also, when speaking of biological harm, morning sickness, bloating, and pain is not considered damaging.

If the being cannot speak, it cannot intend harm. Intent requires consciousness.

I don't personally consider abortion an appropriate response nor viable option to unwanted pregnancy. I think, as far as this argument goes, we've reached a stopping point. It's come down to personal morality, and neither of us is going to be able to change the other's opinion on; and in debate, you can't prove it either. The morality of terminating childbirth is subjective, not objective.

Ah, not quite. I'm saying that instead of trying to control the consequences of our actions, we should instead focus on controlling our own decisions. Preventitive medicine, basically.
     
GLBT
Paramedico
GLBT
deadguy
20 Shades of Crazy
The20
Since when does childbirth cause a trauma?

Natural childbirth is very traumatic for the body.


Yeah, but it's also your choice. It's like getting a tattoo and then complaining about the fact that you got stabbed with a needle.


No, it's like getting an infection from a piercing and being told that you should just have to wait it out and that you deserve it for getting your ears pierced.

And then the infection turns out to be a human being that will need you for the rest of its life.

That's a poor analogy.


I tried. emo His wasn't so hot, either. Nice avatar.


Mine was referring to choosing natural child birth over the usual method, which is not traumatizing, or really all that painful, thanks to the drugs involved. It's your choice to go natural, and there's almost no benefit to doing so.
 
     
 
Vixianna
Anaiira
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif


Actually all the mother does is provide food and water, if there was a way to do it outside the womb, the mother wouldn't be needed at all. So no the mother isn't needed, the food and water the mother provides is.

lolwut? Did you just compare this with a college exam? Ok then, it's sort of similar, only with the SAT you are only encouraged to guess if you think you can get it right, that is by narrowing the choices. That compares to contraception. You are only encouraged to have sex with contraception. In this analogue you are still allowed to guess if you narrow down, just like if you aren't. Just like you are allowed to have sex with or without contraception, but it increases the chance of a favorable outcome, in this case described as not getting pregnant as compared to getting pregnant. In this case, unlike the SAT where if you get it wrong you are penalized in any case whether or not you narrowed it down, you would like that you can guess but if you narrowed it down or not, for you to get a freebie/do over. This compares to if you used contractpetion, or even if you didn't, for you to be able to get an abortion and not get penalized. In this case, the analogy you chose doesn't serve you, because whether or not you narrowed it down or not, if you gussed wrong, you still get penalized and so would you still get pregnant with no "do over" in the form of abortion, if you take your analogy to a logical conclusion.

Tl;DR? You don't want to use this analogy it doesn't serve your side or purpose.

      Okay. I'll concede that the mother is just a source of food/water for the fetus. But there isn't an alternative source. And pregnancy does incur damage to the mother. Analogy time! A louse only requires human scalp for food/water. It damages humans, and what it does itches/hurts. Therefore it's a parasite. If there were an alternative for its food/water, it wouldn't be a parasite... but there isn't. Therefore a louse is a parasite.

      lulz. yuss. I did compare it to a college exam. I'm going through them right now. And Biology M is being a big pain in the posterior. I just don't feel convinced enough to concede on this point. Quote taken out of context though. My point was that pregnancy is not a choice. Like on the SATs, you take a chance, and you know that you might get penalized, by no one ever goes, "Hey, E is obviously wrong, but I think I'm going to choose that because I want to be penalized." And an abortion is like canceling your scores. ;D (Except abortion costs money.)

      I was thinking it was a weird/bad analogy to begin with.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif
     
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

You're right, a fetus can't become a human without the mother, but unlike sperm and egg, there is already existent life; just like you or I require food and water to continue our lives.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. You can't control the finer mechanics, but you can very much choose for a sperm to fertilize an egg--by having sex. It's not a sured consequence, but it's a sured risk. You may not be able to choose to become pregnant, but barring rape, you can choose to not become pregnant.

While men definitely play an equal role as women in fertilization, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to have sex with him against her will (excepting rape). I encourage both men and women to abstain from sex if they are not willing to accept the risks that come with it. They both have an equal responsibility to be conscious of those risks, and understand that both of their lives will be affected by pregnancy; wanted or unwanted.
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

It does not leech nutrients, but is provided them by the mother's own body. It doesn't have the capability to take from the mother by force; the mother's own body willingly provides it to the fetus. Also, when speaking of biological harm, morning sickness, bloating, and pain is not considered damaging.

If the being cannot speak, it cannot intend harm. Intent requires consciousness.

I don't personally consider abortion an appropriate response nor viable option to unwanted pregnancy. I think, as far as this argument goes, we've reached a stopping point. It's come down to personal morality, and neither of us is going to be able to change the other's opinion on; and in debate, you can't prove it either. The morality of terminating childbirth is subjective, not objective.

Ah, not quite. I'm saying that instead of trying to control the consequences of our actions, we should instead focus on controlling our own decisions. Preventitive medicine, basically.
      It takes nutrients from the mother's body. Nutrients that the mother may need, and will have to make up in with vitamins. What do we speak of when we speak of biological harm? Because I'm thinking of "makes the host feel bad/sick." Okay. Intent may require consciousness... but it doesn't mean harm can't occur without intent. Lice don't have the mental capacity to wish harm upon others, but it's still considered a parasite.

      Alright. I'll concede to agreeing to disagree.

      Preventative medicine is good and all, but what are we preventing? Yes, pregnancy, but also the pleasure of sex.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif
 
     
 
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

You're right, a fetus can't become a human without the mother, but unlike sperm and egg, there is already existent life; just like you or I require food and water to continue our lives.

Pregnancy is, for the most part, a choice. You can't control the finer mechanics, but you can very much choose for a sperm to fertilize an egg--by having sex. It's not a sured consequence, but it's a sured risk. You may not be able to choose to become pregnant, but barring rape, you can choose to not become pregnant.

While men definitely play an equal role as women in fertilization, ultimately a man cannot force a woman to have sex with him against her will (excepting rape). I encourage both men and women to abstain from sex if they are not willing to accept the risks that come with it. They both have an equal responsibility to be conscious of those risks, and understand that both of their lives will be affected by pregnancy; wanted or unwanted.
      Well. Okay. All living things require food/water. However, a fetus also requires a mother to live on top of food and water. A fetus provides nothing for the mother but a potential offspring AFTER the fetus is grown and becomes a baby. In essence, the fetus is a parasite that happens to be of the same species as the host. "Parasitism is a type of symbiotic relationship between organisms of different species where one organism, the parasite, benefits at the expense of the host."

      :T I feel like going NUH UH now. Pregnancy is so not a choice. Like on the SATs. If you guess, there's a one in five chance that you get it wrong. And you get a penalty if you get it wrong. You know that there's risk with guessing, but you did not choose to get the question wrong, neither did you choose to incur the penalty.

      A man can walk away from a fetus. A woman can only do that by having an abortion.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

It does not leech nutrients, but is provided them by the mother's own body. It doesn't have the capability to take from the mother by force; the mother's own body willingly provides it to the fetus. Also, when speaking of biological harm, morning sickness, bloating, and pain is not considered damaging.

If the being cannot speak, it cannot intend harm. Intent requires consciousness.

I don't personally consider abortion an appropriate response nor viable option to unwanted pregnancy. I think, as far as this argument goes, we've reached a stopping point. It's come down to personal morality, and neither of us is going to be able to change the other's opinion on; and in debate, you can't prove it either. The morality of terminating childbirth is subjective, not objective.

Ah, not quite. I'm saying that instead of trying to control the consequences of our actions, we should instead focus on controlling our own decisions. Preventitive medicine, basically.
      It takes nutrients from the mother's body. Nutrients that the mother may need, and will have to make up in with vitamins. What do we speak of when we speak of biological harm? Because I'm thinking of "makes the host feel bad/sick." Okay. Intent may require consciousness... but it doesn't mean harm can't occur without intent. Lice don't have the mental capacity to wish harm upon others, but it's still considered a parasite.

      Alright. I'll concede to agreeing to disagree.

      Preventative medicine is good and all, but what are we preventing? Yes, pregnancy, but also the pleasure of sex.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

The mother's body takes in enough nutrients and vitamins to care for both herself and the child. Women were having children long before pregnancy vitamins were around. The female body is designed to be able to take care of two lives at the same time.

When we speak of biological harm, we're talking about effects that can injure the woman to the point of disrupting normal physiological processes. Those few that exist are not common or usual in childbirth, and can today be treated. Things like I mentioned earlier, eclampsia, ectopic pregnancy; not morning sickness or bloating.

Lice don't also require humans to survive, they can find their food elsewhere!

We're preventing pregnancy, and pleasure, yes. But sexual pleasure, while nice, isn't a requirement of life; nor can it only be derived from sexual intercourse. I'm not against sex, or having sexual pleasure, only being aware that it can and may come at a cost; and that if that cost isn't something someone's willing to pay, that I personally do not think they should risk it.
     
http://i34.tinypic.com/1zpqyqt.jpg
Little Maus
In light of the recent Healthcare bill and the fact that it does not cover abortion, I'd like to open a debate with something new I learned recently.

When a woman is forced to bear a child it's 9 months of physical pain, social problems (loss of a job, getting kicked out of school, unable to complete education or work) as well as the painful procedure of childbirth and all the trauma that often follows even if the child is immediately given up for adoption. This is a long, hard, and very costly process. Going to the doctor for exams, ultrasounds, taking special prenatal vitamins, as well as the cost to simply have a baby, is very extreme


Immediately assumes that someone pregnant is going to school (of some sort) and is working. Firstly, pregnant people CAN still go to school. You can both still go to school or go to special school for pregnant mothers (provided you are still in secondary education). Second, a woman being fired because of she is pregnant (disability) is an issue that deals with EEOC. It is their primary job to end this kind of actions. However, yes, it is true that many companies will fire the person and say "we didn't see further qualifications in this person that could help our company as a whole". BUT there are thousands of companies out there that have something called "maternity leave". THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY ABORTION. IN BARELY HAS ANYTHING TO DO WITH ABORTION.
 
     
 
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

It does not leech nutrients, but is provided them by the mother's own body. It doesn't have the capability to take from the mother by force; the mother's own body willingly provides it to the fetus. Also, when speaking of biological harm, morning sickness, bloating, and pain is not considered damaging.

If the being cannot speak, it cannot intend harm. Intent requires consciousness.

I don't personally consider abortion an appropriate response nor viable option to unwanted pregnancy. I think, as far as this argument goes, we've reached a stopping point. It's come down to personal morality, and neither of us is going to be able to change the other's opinion on; and in debate, you can't prove it either. The morality of terminating childbirth is subjective, not objective.

Ah, not quite. I'm saying that instead of trying to control the consequences of our actions, we should instead focus on controlling our own decisions. Preventitive medicine, basically.
      It takes nutrients from the mother's body. Nutrients that the mother may need, and will have to make up in with vitamins. What do we speak of when we speak of biological harm? Because I'm thinking of "makes the host feel bad/sick." Okay. Intent may require consciousness... but it doesn't mean harm can't occur without intent. Lice don't have the mental capacity to wish harm upon others, but it's still considered a parasite.

      Alright. I'll concede to agreeing to disagree.

      Preventative medicine is good and all, but what are we preventing? Yes, pregnancy, but also the pleasure of sex.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

The mother's body takes in enough nutrients and vitamins to care for both herself and the child. Women were having children long before pregnancy vitamins were around. The female body is designed to be able to take care of two lives at the same time.

When we speak of biological harm, we're talking about effects that can injure the woman to the point of disrupting normal physiological processes. Those few that exist are not common or usual in childbirth, and can today be treated. Things like I mentioned earlier, eclampsia, ectopic pregnancy; not morning sickness or bloating.

Lice don't also require humans to survive, they can find their food elsewhere!

We're preventing pregnancy, and pleasure, yes. But sexual pleasure, while nice, isn't a requirement of life; nor can it only be derived from sexual intercourse. I'm not against sex, or having sexual pleasure, only being aware that it can and may come at a cost; and that if that cost isn't something someone's willing to pay, that I personally do not think they should risk it.
      Yeah. And pregnancy long before modern medicine was extremely painful, and most of the time, the mother died while carrying the baby and/or giving birth to the baby. And lice do feed on the nutrients of the host and cause damage. So does the fetus. Neither have the mental capacity to be aware of the fact that it's doing harm. Lice may have other options, but a fetus doesn't. (Unless we're talking about a shift from a woman to a man.)

      Pregnancy isn't a requirement of life either. (How did we get to this?)

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif
     
Heil Grammatik!
http://coreyking.files.wordpress.com/2009/02/grammar_nazi2.jpg
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico
Anaiira
Paramedico

A fetus, however, does not benefit at the expense of the host. When speaking of parasites, the "at the expense of the host" comes with the connotation of biologically injuring the host; which fetuses do not generally do, nor are biologically intended to do.

You can say pregnancy isn't a choice, but sex is; and since sex is the cause of pregnancy, we can correlate the two by saying if you have a choice to have sex or not, and pregnancy is a potential consequence of sex, then by having sex you are accepting the risk of pregnancy.

Here's an analogy for that: say a person is injured, and they need to have a breathing tube put into their trachea. The person inserting the tube knows that it carries a risk of slowing their heart rate down to dangerous levels. And if that happens, it was by their choosing to insert that airway that the patient's heart slowed to dangerous levels. It was a risk they were aware of, and still took. Hmm, maybe that's not the best example. Either way, my point is if you choose to take an action knowing it carries risks, you are accepting those risks and choosing to roll your dice and risk them as well and should be ready for the consequences.

Going back to your analogy, if you choose to answer, knowing you could be right, you're also accepting the risk that you might be wrong. If you don't want to be wrong, the best option is not to answer the question at all. I think I like that analogy better, actually.

You're right, unfortunately, a man can walk away from their child much more easily than a woman can. And it's part of the unfortunate, unfair world we live in. But I still encourage people, men and women alike, not to do that. It seems like the more we attain the ability to control our lives the more we want to control them, and expect them to bow to our demands. But this universe is not, and never will be, fully under our control. It's an unfair life, you didn't come into this world and given a golden crown but slapped on the a** and whisked away to be poked and prodded while your mother lay in recover. We have to accept that things are not and never will be perfect, and work to control our own actions instead of expecting the world to undo the calculated risks we took that have come to pass.

That's my view, anyway.
      I think the fetus does benefit at the expense of the mother. It leeches nutrients and food that it otherwise cannot get for itself (benefits). The mother goes through morning sickness, bloating, and a painful labour (is hurt). Fetuses aren't intended to do harm... but what can you say about the intentions of a being that can't think yet?

      Abortion is being ready for the consequences. Both abortion and pregnancy (and labour) are painful to the mother. Either way, they face the results of their actions. What would be unready for the consequences is being unable to support the child financially or emotionally. Good analogy though. biggrin

      Your last point seems confusing to me. If I'm interpreting it correctly, are you saying that we shouldn't make our lives easier, even though we have the option to do so, just because it might not turn out the way we expected?

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

It does not leech nutrients, but is provided them by the mother's own body. It doesn't have the capability to take from the mother by force; the mother's own body willingly provides it to the fetus. Also, when speaking of biological harm, morning sickness, bloating, and pain is not considered damaging.

If the being cannot speak, it cannot intend harm. Intent requires consciousness.

I don't personally consider abortion an appropriate response nor viable option to unwanted pregnancy. I think, as far as this argument goes, we've reached a stopping point. It's come down to personal morality, and neither of us is going to be able to change the other's opinion on; and in debate, you can't prove it either. The morality of terminating childbirth is subjective, not objective.

Ah, not quite. I'm saying that instead of trying to control the consequences of our actions, we should instead focus on controlling our own decisions. Preventitive medicine, basically.
      It takes nutrients from the mother's body. Nutrients that the mother may need, and will have to make up in with vitamins. What do we speak of when we speak of biological harm? Because I'm thinking of "makes the host feel bad/sick." Okay. Intent may require consciousness... but it doesn't mean harm can't occur without intent. Lice don't have the mental capacity to wish harm upon others, but it's still considered a parasite.

      Alright. I'll concede to agreeing to disagree.

      Preventative medicine is good and all, but what are we preventing? Yes, pregnancy, but also the pleasure of sex.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif

The mother's body takes in enough nutrients and vitamins to care for both herself and the child. Women were having children long before pregnancy vitamins were around. The female body is designed to be able to take care of two lives at the same time.

When we speak of biological harm, we're talking about effects that can injure the woman to the point of disrupting normal physiological processes. Those few that exist are not common or usual in childbirth, and can today be treated. Things like I mentioned earlier, eclampsia, ectopic pregnancy; not morning sickness or bloating.

Lice don't also require humans to survive, they can find their food elsewhere!

We're preventing pregnancy, and pleasure, yes. But sexual pleasure, while nice, isn't a requirement of life; nor can it only be derived from sexual intercourse. I'm not against sex, or having sexual pleasure, only being aware that it can and may come at a cost; and that if that cost isn't something someone's willing to pay, that I personally do not think they should risk it.


"Women and children were around before vitamins..." I am not even going to state the obvious on that one... (ppssst food has vitamins dipshit!)
 
     
http://img16.imageshack.us/img16/4007/imagedt.jpg
You (and I) are in ED (probably). You will be asked to defend your stance. Smack me if I am being an idiot. I am going to sleep.
 
Anaiira

      Okay. I'll concede that the mother is just a source of food/water for the fetus. But there isn't an alternative source. And pregnancy does incur damage to the mother. Analogy time! A louse only requires human scalp for food/water. It damages humans, and what it does itches/hurts. Therefore it's a parasite. If there were an alternative for its food/water, it wouldn't be a parasite... but there isn't. Therefore a louse is a parasite.

      lulz. yuss. I did compare it to a college exam. I'm going through them right now. And Biology M is being a big pain in the posterior. I just don't feel convinced enough to concede on this point. Quote taken out of context though. My point was that pregnancy is not a choice. Like on the SATs, you take a chance, and you know that you might get penalized, by no one ever goes, "Hey, E is obviously wrong, but I think I'm going to choose that because I want to be penalized." And an abortion is like canceling your scores. ;D (Except abortion costs money.)

      I was thinking it was a weird/bad analogy to begin with.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif


Which was a point I made myself. If there was an alternative source, not a single anti-abortion person would be complaining, AND the mother wouldn't have some percieved right to abortion, because there was an option that saved both lives. This of course is a non-issue at this time from infeasibility.

Firstly, it's a different species, and not even in the same position, external as opposed to internal, in the person, but I'll play along once again. Louse themselves don't actually cause damage. The chance for bacterial infection is the only really concern other than the "ick" factor, so no the parasite itself isn't causing harm. It's an annoyance, but the scratching itself causes much more damage than the louse. Just as well, we aren't allowed much latitude for annoyances. You are not allowed to kill your neighbor because of annoyance, nor should you kill another human life because of annoyance. Your analogue is once again inapplicable, or doesn't present the picture you'd like. The fetus, even if not a "being" under our legal terms, is both human by DNA and living, that is self-evident, therefore it should be allowed some kind of protective latitude.

As for your explanation of your original faulty analogue. I disagree, I gave a perfectly good explanation of what your analogy really means, so unless you have an actual rebuttal for why mine is inaccurate, you can not merely substitute your own meaning for convenience. Pregnancy is most like getting the question wrong whether you narrowed or not, but you are suggesting that specific instance as in that specific question be excused. Canceling the scores is much more like getting permanently sterilized.
     
Anaiira
      It takes nutrients from the mother's body. Nutrients that the mother may need, and will have to make up in with vitamins. What do we speak of when we speak of biological harm? Because I'm thinking of "makes the host feel bad/sick." Okay. Intent may require consciousness... but it doesn't mean harm can't occur without intent. Lice don't have the mental capacity to wish harm upon others, but it's still considered a parasite.

      Alright. I'll concede to agreeing to disagree.

      Preventative medicine is good and all, but what are we preventing? Yes, pregnancy, but also the pleasure of sex.

      http://tinyurl.com/yebf5lh/.gif


It doesn't take anything the body does not provide. Your body suppresses it's own immune system to allow the fetus to stay in your uterus, so obviously your physical self is consenting to the continuance of the pregnancy. The problem is you don't have control over all of your physical processes or that of the fetus, which is why abortion is wanted in the first place. Because if we were like armadillos and could choose when to be pregnant and with how many, this conversation wouldn't be taking place.

You also act as if sex is a God given right of human need. If it was a universal need, then it would be impossible to be celibate for any length of time after puberty, and asexuals wouldn't exist. obviously this isn't true, I should have to prove virginity, and asexuality to you do I?
 
     
Pockybot
Let me call the wammmbulance. Least you ******** got girls right? I know guys even older than me who never had ANY luck with guys.


Pockybot mistaking heterosexuality with homosexuality since Oct. 2009
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