A question for those against abortion

[0-gitaroo_man-0]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

0-gitaroo_man-0

Well I do agree with you on the sleep thing, it's just when I think of unconcious I think of coma patient and just didn't want to go that far :]

But o yeah that was it... Abortion = Win (Y)

Oh, so I guess we're in disagreement. So do you want to pose an argument?

Well I believe abortion to be a matter of choice, I don't believe that it should be seen as a resort of not protecting yourself during sex however, although this would be difficult to stop people from doing.

It's not really an argument just my own opinions, the one problem I do have with abortion however is taxpayers money, people shouldn't be allowed to abort potential life courtesy of the public when that money could be going towards helping others. If you've neglected to take responsibility during sex then you should foot the bill. There are some cases that should allow abortion indefinatly such as if birth would pose a risk to the mothers health or life, or if conception was caused against the mothers consent.

Personally I would not go down the route of abortion although it ultimatly wouldn't be my decision but I understand why people would.


I apologise for the lack of argument i'm much better at refuting others' sweatdrop

[Paramedico]

Little Maus

In light of the recent Healthcare bill and the fact that it does not cover abortion, I'd like to open a debate with something new I learned recently.

For those of you who are anti-choice for whatever reasons;

Quote:

In the case of McFall V Shimp- a man in need of a bone marrow transplant to live had a cousin who was a compatible donor. The cousin however did not want to donate marrow, and the courts agreed that the cousin could not be forced to donate bone marrow to save the man's life; he died two weeks after the verdict was handed down.

When a woman is forced to bear a child it's 9 months of physical pain, social problems (loss of a job, getting kicked out of school, unable to complete education or work) as well as the painful procedure of childbirth and all the trauma that often follows even if the child is immediately given up for adoption. This is a long, hard, and very costly process. Going to the doctor for exams, ultrasounds, taking special prenatal vitamins, as well as the cost to simply have a baby, is very extreme.

This man would have undergone an admittedly very painful but short process of donating bone marrow, with no lasting side effects of mental trauma, and likely at no cost to himself, in order to save another persons life- and the courts decided that he did not have to do this.

People argue that these sparks of life deserve to live, and yet a man does not have to donate marrow to save another grown, currently living, thinking, feeling, hurting persons life? These fetuses that are aborted in order to save a woman's life (on many levels, so they can continue college or highschool or work without a severe interruption or permanent setback) do not have lives of their own, they are not thinking or feeling, and yet people expect women to have to carry them to term no matter what?

--- If abortion were illegal, then would the donation of things like bone marrow or organs we can spare without dying ourselves to save the lives of others have to be enforced? If not then why is a life less precious after it's been born?

The cousin is not legally obligated to donate bone marrow because he has no duty to act to save the man's life; just like if you were to happen upon a car accident, though you would have a duty to call 911 and report it, you have no duty to act and intervene on the situation.

With pregnancy, that is more often than not, a choice made by both parties involved; whether they realize it. Accepting the risks of pregnancy is a risk taken when two people engage in sex. The cousin refusing to donate bone marrow could be viewed as taking that man's life through inaction, while abortion is taking a life through action.

It's all about duty to act. The law gives you the option to passively stand by as another person dies, not to actively have a hand in their death.

[La Veuve Zin]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

The entire OP is an appeal to emotion.

And that's all I have to say about this inevitable trainwreck of a thread.

[Little Maus]

I've had a few people answer my argument with some of their own so I wont quote anyone specifically, so here goes.

Quote:

The man choosing not to donate is standing by and letting someone die, whereas having an abortion is actively handing over a death warrant

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

Quote:

Women need to take responsibility for their actions! (and or) They need to keep their legs shut

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

Quote:

How is childbirth traumatizing? I've known/seen/heard of plenty of girls who have kids and only miss one week of school or aren't traumatized by it at all.

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

Quote:

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

It's true that some people do get maternity leave, or can go through highschool or college while pregnant, a friend of mine during out senior year in college was pregnant and had a baby during out last semester. Even with a husband and only doing school full time herself, she still had a very hard time graduating. She missed lots of classes, had to go to doctors appointments all the time, she was tired and sick very often and when the baby was born even more tired, I'm not even sure she graduated. Lo, no one example is going to cover everyone.

I'm not sure how having a 9 month interlude into the world of bearing a child wouldn't be an interruption, social, school or work wise, because it's not like you can just carry on as if everything is normal for those 9 months and all of a sudden you're better. But I'll grant that perhaps some people can get through the situation easier than others. I know in Alaska if you're pregnant you're required to transfer schools and go to a different highschool (I would consider that an upset), and even if you didn't have to transfer I doubt going through highschool while pregnant is as easy or fun as Juno makes it look, but hey I've never been pregnant in highschool so what do I know. I'm sure loads of highschoolers had rip roaring good times while knocked up for their senior prom and it had absolutely no effect on their grades or class performance whatsoever.

[x Sarnath x]

Little Maus

I've had a few people answer my argument with some of their own so I wont quote anyone specifically, so here goes.

Quote:

The man choosing not to donate is standing by and letting someone die, whereas having an abortion is actively handing over a death warrant

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

Quote:

Women need to take responsibility for their actions! (and or) They need to keep their legs shut

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

Quote:

How is childbirth traumatizing? I've known/seen/heard of plenty of girls who have kids and only miss one week of school or aren't traumatized by it at all.

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

Quote:

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

It's true that some people do get maternity leave, or can go through highschool or college while pregnant, a friend of mine during out senior year in college was pregnant and had a baby during out last semester. Even with a husband and only doing school full time herself, she still had a very hard time graduating. She missed lots of classes, had to go to doctors appointments all the time, she was tired and sick very often and when the baby was born even more tired, I'm not even sure she graduated. Lo, no one example is going to cover everyone.

I'm not sure how having a 9 month interlude into the world of bearing a child wouldn't be an interruption, social, school or work wise, because it's not like you can just carry on as if everything is normal for those 9 months and all of a sudden you're better. But I'll grant that perhaps some people can get through the situation easier than others. I know in Alaska if you're pregnant you're required to transfer schools and go to a different highschool (I would consider that an upset), and even if you didn't have to transfer I doubt going through highschool while pregnant is as easy or fun as Juno makes it look, but hey I've never been pregnant in highschool so what do I know. I'm sure loads of highschoolers had rip roaring good times while knocked up for their senior prom and it had absolutely no effect on their grades or class performance whatsoever.

This is a great post. ninja

[I got bored one day]

Little Maus

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

This dances around the point. Inaction is not action. The two are rarely compatible for comparison. You fall in the "not comparable" section.

Quote:

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

Actually fathers who ditch are considered cowards. It's also looked down upon for men to have too many partners; while men are allotted more partners than women in social view that's not an excuse to be sticking your d**k everywhere.

Quote:

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

I want to see this source, particularly that these 1 million pregnancies occurred with the people taking the contraceptive correctly.

Quote:

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

There are studies on it, your opinion isn't necessary.

Quote:

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

The miracles of an epidural. Childbirth isn't seamless and painless but a lot of it can be removed through medical technology and advancement. Actually it hurts a lot still anyway, but all the same the misery you're propagating isn't real. If anything this seems based on fear.

Someone else

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

Pft, that's an outright lie. It's like any major change, it's a huge redirection of resources.

[LilPandaGirl1x]

well i wouldnt want to get abortion because i dont want to kill a life

[Little Maus]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Little Maus

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

This dances around the point. Inaction is not action. The two are rarely compatible for comparison. You fall in the "not comparable" section.

Quote:

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

Actually fathers who ditch are considered cowards. It's also looked down upon for men to have too many partners; while men are allotted more partners than women in social view that's not an excuse to be sticking your d**k everywhere.

Quote:

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

I want to see this source, particularly that these 1 million pregnancies occurred with the people taking the contraceptive correctly.

Quote:

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

There are studies on it, your opinion isn't necessary.

Quote:

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

The miracles of an epidural. Childbirth isn't seamless and painless but a lot of it can be removed through medical technology and advancement. Actually it hurts a lot still anyway, but all the same the misery you're propagating isn't real. If anything this seems based on fear.

Someone else

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

Pft, that's an outright lie. It's like any major change, it's a huge redirection of resources.

I would disagree that it 'dances around the point' and that inaction and action are different if they have the same outcome. On a physical and technical level they are different, but on a moral level, under the idea that all life is sacred (an argument most anti-choicers use) it is the same.

Also, here are my sources; Quick look and the American Pregnancy Association

Which actually states:Reproductive Health:
Every year in the United States, there are 60,000,000 women in the childbearing years of 15-44 :

70% of these women are sexually active
64% use a form of contraception
3,000,000 use no contraception, accounting for 47% of unplanned pregnancies

So, surprisingly, more than half of women who get pregnant, 64%, were using some form of contraceptive! I'm surprised really, learn something new every day.

[-PhantomRain_ InariReyne-]

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

The entire OP is an appeal to emotion.

we gotta have something mushy to throw against the pro lifers.

[x Sarnath x]

-PhantomRain_ InariReyne-

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

The entire OP is an appeal to emotion.

we gotta have something mushy to throw against the pro lifers.

Especially because most half-assed pro-life arguments are based entirely on emotions and what people think is right and wrong. lol

[Little Maus]

-PhantomRain_ InariReyne-

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

The entire OP is an appeal to emotion.

we gotta have something mushy to throw against the pro lifers.

If we have the option of throwing mushy things at pro lifers I'd rather throw roadkill. Or precious babies that are in extreme abundance.

[Nonesuch Solo]

Little Maus

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Little Maus

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

This dances around the point. Inaction is not action. The two are rarely compatible for comparison. You fall in the "not comparable" section.

Quote:

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

Actually fathers who ditch are considered cowards. It's also looked down upon for men to have too many partners; while men are allotted more partners than women in social view that's not an excuse to be sticking your d**k everywhere.

Quote:

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

I want to see this source, particularly that these 1 million pregnancies occurred with the people taking the contraceptive correctly.

Quote:

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

There are studies on it, your opinion isn't necessary.

Quote:

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

The miracles of an epidural. Childbirth isn't seamless and painless but a lot of it can be removed through medical technology and advancement. Actually it hurts a lot still anyway, but all the same the misery you're propagating isn't real. If anything this seems based on fear.

Someone else

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

Pft, that's an outright lie. It's like any major change, it's a huge redirection of resources.

I would disagree that it 'dances around the point' and that inaction and action are different if they have the same outcome. On a physical and technical level they are different, but on a moral level, under the idea that all life is sacred (an argument most anti-choicers use) it is the same.

Also, here are my sources; Quick look and the American Pregnancy Association

Which actually states:Reproductive Health:
Every year in the United States, there are 60,000,000 women in the childbearing years of 15-44 :

70% of these women are sexually active
64% use a form of contraception
3,000,000 use no contraception, accounting for 47% of unplanned pregnancies

So, surprisingly, more than half of women who get pregnant, 64%, were using some form of contraceptive! I'm surprised really, learn something new every day.

I could take my pill only if I remember it and at different times of the day, and I'd still be counted as "using some form of contraceptive."

I could tell my partner to put on a condom when he's been oozing precum into me for five minutes, and we'd be counted as "using some form of contraceptive."

How many of those people were using their forms of contraceptive precisely as they were instructed? Well, I doubt the researchers asked those questions, so we may never know.

[x Sarnath x]

Nonesuch Solo

Little Maus

Cutie-pie Sleepyhead

Little Maus

And not donating that bone marrow handed over the cousin's death warrant, he died two weeks after the verdict. By doing nothing, he allowed his cousin to die. I can see some reasoning in this on a purely technical level, after all if you're standing next to someone hanging of of a cliff and you choose not to help them (assuming there could be no harm done to you) and they fall to your death, it's not like it was your fault they were hanging there to begin with, it was only your inaction that caused their death. Morally though I think that both situations are pretty reprehensible - and yes, everyone has different morals.

This dances around the point. Inaction is not action. The two are rarely compatible for comparison. You fall in the "not comparable" section.

Quote:

I find there's a lot of problems with this. It's really quite a shame we can't brand fathers-to-be as well, or put them through some kind of horrible 6 ring circus that pregnancy does to women. The idea that women should have to abstain from sex or else they're sluts while guys are encouraged to sleep with as many women as he can is pretty ridiculous.

Actually fathers who ditch are considered cowards. It's also looked down upon for men to have too many partners; while men are allotted more partners than women in social view that's not an excuse to be sticking your d**k everywhere.

Quote:

According to the American Pregnancy Organization, there are 6 million pregnancies in the US each year, and that 1 million of these pregnancies happened while using some form of contraceptive, condoms or the pill. There is no fool proof plan, 99% chance really is only 99%, it's not that 1 million women's fault that the condom broke or the pill didn't work, yet she has to go through childbirth now?

I want to see this source, particularly that these 1 million pregnancies occurred with the people taking the contraceptive correctly.

Quote:

I also speak with lots of people on a regular basis and interact with society and they have no idea that my little sister died a year and a half ago. People can surprisingly function despite emotional trauma and act quite normal in public or with friends. And perhaps they weren't emotionally traumatized, but I don't think a lot of women can go through 9 months of unwanted pregnancy and childbirth and give it up without some kind of emotional trauma.

There are studies on it, your opinion isn't necessary.

Quote:

As far as the physical trauma goes, there are some other people who said it better than I could a few posts back, and if you think having a baby is easy... Well I hope you're female and pop one out real soon and let me know how easy that 9 months was. As well as all the vaginal tears and cutting of stuff to get it out of there and hours of labor that it took.

The miracles of an epidural. Childbirth isn't seamless and painless but a lot of it can be removed through medical technology and advancement. Actually it hurts a lot still anyway, but all the same the misery you're propagating isn't real. If anything this seems based on fear.

Someone else

It doesn't interrupt their lives to have a baby.

Pft, that's an outright lie. It's like any major change, it's a huge redirection of resources.

I would disagree that it 'dances around the point' and that inaction and action are different if they have the same outcome. On a physical and technical level they are different, but on a moral level, under the idea that all life is sacred (an argument most anti-choicers use) it is the same.

Also, here are my sources; Quick look and the American Pregnancy Association

Which actually states:Reproductive Health:
Every year in the United States, there are 60,000,000 women in the childbearing years of 15-44 :

70% of these women are sexually active
64% use a form of contraception
3,000,000 use no contraception, accounting for 47% of unplanned pregnancies

So, surprisingly, more than half of women who get pregnant, 64%, were using some form of contraceptive! I'm surprised really, learn something new every day.

I could take my pill only if I remember it and at different times of the day, and I'd still be counted as "using some form of contraceptive."

I could tell my partner to put on a condom when he's been oozing precum into me for five minutes, and we'd be counted as "using some form of contraceptive."

How many of those people were using their forms of contraceptive precisely as they were instructed? Well, I doubt the researchers asked those questions, so we may never know.

Two words: Who cares?

Maybe people get upset about it, but they can cry me a river for all I care. They can go home and cut themselves and cry all night long, but I still don't care. It's none of their business and it isn't their problem.
Would you allow a stranger to discipline your child and give them a spanking? Why should a stranger have any say in what happens to your child before it's born, then?

[Phantomboy411]

for the record, i'm pro-life i support abortion in the case of rape and stuff. other than that, if you really don't want a kid, there's no real reason to have sex.

no sex = no babies.