A Challenge to Creationists (worth >11,000,000 gold!)

[A Confused Iguana]

Aneko009

Would use of the Bible as historical evidence count for anything or is it going to be dismissed as stories made up by mad men?

The challenge is to support a young-Earth or old-Earth model of creationism with scientific evidence as has been suggested by the likes of AiG or ICR.

This is not a challenge to justify a religious belief, this is a challenge to those who say that the evidence around us does not support the conclusions of scientists. If this is a correct appraisal then we ask to see how the scientific evidence better supports the conclusion of those creationists who say that the current orthodoxy is incorrect.

I repeat myself, this is not a challenge of faith. This is about evidence. Demonstrable, repeatable evidence in the domain of scientific research.

[Redem]

Nihil Schutzstaffel

Hass und Vergeltung haben wir uns geschworen
Unserer Herzen sie wurden zu Stein

At first I was tempted to come up with some devils-advocate argument so I could attempt to get the reward, even if I think creationism is a load of s**t.

Then, after about 2 minutes Google research, I realized that since creationism is an inherently unscientific position, it is impossible... literally physically impossible... to defend scientifically. Making this thread both pointless and rather questionable- particularly that bit about having to pay to enter a theory. If this is simply a way to scam gold out of creationist idiots, then I approve, but I bet the mods wouldn't. whee

Doch tief in dem Stein da brennt noch ein Feuer
Die Flamme der Freiheit lodernd und rein

Nah, just an attempt to lessen the useless entries a little. The origins of the offer are based in one of the recent threads in the science and tech forums.

[Hawklaw]

Wait, does this mean Creationism as a whole, or just ID? Because there are people out there who believe in both Creationism and evolution.

[happybunny1140]

have fun trying to find someone stupid enough to pay to express their beliefs

[A Confused Iguana]

Nihil, a scam?! gonk

It is not a scam. The fee is to stop us being inundated with people who will waste our time. If you feel that the challenge cannot be met would you go and tell all the people about the world who do think that evidence better supports their conclusion?

[AcursedVandersnow]

VoijaRisa

Introduction
It has been a long standing tradition of Creationists on Gaia and in general to assert that evolution and creation are both "just theories" and as such deserve equal footing in the classroom.

Evolutionists maintain that this is an abuse of the term "theory" given that it equivocates a scientific theory (which is a well tested hypothesis proven beyond any reasonable doubt) with a layman's theory (which is a guess).

Since we Evolutionists have aptly demonstrated that there is indeed conclusive scientific evidence for evolution, we challenge those that support the notion that Creation is backed by honest scientific evidence to engage us in a wager.

The Challenge
The requirement is as follows:

Provide valid, scientific evidence for Creationism.

To be as generous as possible, we will define "Creationism" as loosely as can be reasonably allowed.

As such, for the purposes of this thread, Creationism will be defined such that our universe (or life therein) was intentionally created by an higher, intelligent power.

You are, of course, free to attempt to support other aspects of the Creation hypothesis, such as a young Earth or global flood as well.

Requirements
In order to successfully meet the challenge, you must present how your evidence follows the scientific method. Namely, you must:

1. Present the positive hypothesis, showing how it is falsifiable.
2. Present experiments and tests that are statistically significant and methodologically pertinent that relate directly to your hypothesis.
3. Discuss how the evidence supports your hypothesis.

Remember to define any key terms used to prevent confusion.

You may not:

1. Use logical fallacies.
2. Use negative arguments (ie, arguments against evolutions are not arguments for creation).
3. Use philosophical arguments.

If you are able to do this, you will be given several Gaia items and gold, totaling up to over 9,000,000 gold in value.

Judging
Those that have donated items to the reward pool will be the judges. Unanimous consent need not be gained, but rather a majority vote. Should the judges not respond within 3 days, their position will be considered an abstention and will not be counted.

Gold/Items that have been wagered thus far:

Katherine1 - Fire Whip (approx 73k) + Winged Anklets (approx 1.5m)
VoijaRisa - 50k gold + Chyaku Norisu scarf (approx 250k)
A Lost Iguana - Golden Laurels (approx 2.5m) & Ninja Band (approx 2.2m)
Redem - Ancient Katana (approx 450k)
Worm of Morgoth - Entire account (30k + items)
Jaaten Syric - Horns of the Demon (approx 2.7m)
+____________________________________
Total Worth: ~9 million gold!


Of course, being that this is a wager, that means you have to put something up too. Given that most of us putting in items have been arguing evolution a long time, we can definitively say that the odds are extremely low you'll succeed. Thus you get the odds in your favor.

For each entry you submit, you must pay 5,000 gold prior to submitting your entry. If you win, this, plus all the items previously mentioned will be paid back to you. If you fail to present a valid argument, that gold will be evenly distributed amongst those that have donated the prizes. But seriously, you stand to make >1,800 times back what you wagered.

Entering
In order to enter, simply send the coordinator, VoijaRisa, a PM stating your intent to enter with a link to the post (in this thread) with your argument.

Arguments not to use
- Irreducible Complexity
- The Second Law of Thermodynamics

I don't want any gold. I just don't believe that science accurately explains why everything that exists is so precisely put togather.

For example a tornado never blows through a junk yard and whips up a brand new corvette out of all the spare parts laying out there. So why should I believe that all these atomic spare parts randomly came togather to form all matter as we know it. And chemical and nerve impulses in the brain don't explain the depth and complexity of human thought. All these things are creations of human thought in an attempt to explain what we see, feel, hear and taste around us.

To me, the only reasonable explination is that something somewhere designed things the way they are.

You can't shake up a box of legos and get a lego starwars millenium falcon. You have to think about what you're doing, and put them togather in a planned manner. The same thing applies to chemical strings. Not all chemicals will form bonds with each other.

But you're looking for something so assinine as, come here I have god under my microscope, take a look. Well it doesn't work that way. It's a situation of the evidence not being a smoking gun, and different people interpret the same evidence as meaning different things. No one has ever explained to me how the big bang created human thought. Evolution and religeon are both creations of human thought as an attempt to explain things that aren't obviously answered.

What's most frusterating to me is that when people talk about religeon they instantly mean christianity. It is the most attacked religeon worldwide. ANd this is not because it is the most far fetched one either. Hindus believe that our ultimate goal is to die and reincarnate as a cow. Tell me that doesn't sound far fetched. Islam, judaism, and christianity parallel on so many different levels, but none of the three are attacked and shot down like christianity is. My question is why? With all the religions out there why do people ultimately attack christianity before they attack the others.

But the most frusteration fact about this topic is that you know good and well you can't scientifically prove something that the scientific method can't measure. It's just your way of gloating.

But here's my question, since your logic is so unflawed.

Prove to me scientifically that god doesn't exist. And simply saying well science hasn't measured and tested god yet so therefore it doesn't exist is not an answer. Science hasn't tested alot of things which are accepted as true, so simply saying that doesn't scientifically disprive god. Neither does saying god hasn't come down and proven himself to me therefore he doesn't exist.
No one has watched evolution take place, so evolution has not come to you and proven it's existance. Therefore it doesn't exist.

[FantasyHearts]

A Confused Iguana

Nihil, a scam?! gonk

It is not a scam. The fee is to stop us being inundated with people who will waste our time. If you feel that the challenge cannot be met would you go and tell all the people about the world who do think that evidence better supports their conclusion?

Quid?

[Legendary_Blade]

funkymonkey249

have fun trying to find someone stupid enough to pay to express their beliefs

Especially since if somebody does present scientific proof most likely you'll say it's not applicable because of this and this and that.

Plus, Creationist is most likely more about faith then science. I, personally, believe Evolution was guided by God, but that's just me.

[Daumier]

Kelly Couture

Deformography

Kelly Couture

..... are you stupid, or just plain retarted.

I'd bet every piece of gold to my name that she's smarter than you... and I have almost 500k.

Offering gold, for people to prove a belief that is not based on proof is pretty stupid. I is aint no geneius, but I know that this is completely Dumbassness.

Of course their belief is not based on proof. That's the whole point. The problem is that they'll lie their way around the issue and claim that they have plenty of proof anyway in hopes that they'll never have to admit it.

[A Confused Iguana]

funkymonkey249

have fun trying to find someone stupid enough to pay to express their beliefs

I believe the challenge cannot be met given the state of the evidence and I do not wish people waste their time. However, there are number people who deny the science: this is now their platform to provide their alternative.

[FantasyHearts]

AcursedVandersnow

VoijaRisa

Introduction
It has been a long standing tradition of Creationists on Gaia and in general to assert that evolution and creation are both "just theories" and as such deserve equal footing in the classroom.

Evolutionists maintain that this is an abuse of the term "theory" given that it equivocates a scientific theory (which is a well tested hypothesis proven beyond any reasonable doubt) with a layman's theory (which is a guess).

Since we Evolutionists have aptly demonstrated that there is indeed conclusive scientific evidence for evolution, we challenge those that support the notion that Creation is backed by honest scientific evidence to engage us in a wager.

The Challenge
The requirement is as follows:

Provide valid, scientific evidence for Creationism.

To be as generous as possible, we will define "Creationism" as loosely as can be reasonably allowed.

As such, for the purposes of this thread, Creationism will be defined such that our universe (or life therein) was intentionally created by an higher, intelligent power.

You are, of course, free to attempt to support other aspects of the Creation hypothesis, such as a young Earth or global flood as well.

Requirements
In order to successfully meet the challenge, you must present how your evidence follows the scientific method. Namely, you must:

1. Present the positive hypothesis, showing how it is falsifiable.
2. Present experiments and tests that are statistically significant and methodologically pertinent that relate directly to your hypothesis.
3. Discuss how the evidence supports your hypothesis.

Remember to define any key terms used to prevent confusion.

You may not:

1. Use logical fallacies.
2. Use negative arguments (ie, arguments against evolutions are not arguments for creation).
3. Use philosophical arguments.

If you are able to do this, you will be given several Gaia items and gold, totaling up to over 9,000,000 gold in value.

Judging
Those that have donated items to the reward pool will be the judges. Unanimous consent need not be gained, but rather a majority vote. Should the judges not respond within 3 days, their position will be considered an abstention and will not be counted.

Gold/Items that have been wagered thus far:

Katherine1 - Fire Whip (approx 73k) + Winged Anklets (approx 1.5m)
VoijaRisa - 50k gold + Chyaku Norisu scarf (approx 250k)
A Lost Iguana - Golden Laurels (approx 2.5m) & Ninja Band (approx 2.2m)
Redem - Ancient Katana (approx 450k)
Worm of Morgoth - Entire account (30k + items)
Jaaten Syric - Horns of the Demon (approx 2.7m)
+____________________________________
Total Worth: ~9 million gold!


Of course, being that this is a wager, that means you have to put something up too. Given that most of us putting in items have been arguing evolution a long time, we can definitively say that the odds are extremely low you'll succeed. Thus you get the odds in your favor.

For each entry you submit, you must pay 5,000 gold prior to submitting your entry. If you win, this, plus all the items previously mentioned will be paid back to you. If you fail to present a valid argument, that gold will be evenly distributed amongst those that have donated the prizes. But seriously, you stand to make >1,800 times back what you wagered.

Entering
In order to enter, simply send the coordinator, VoijaRisa, a PM stating your intent to enter with a link to the post (in this thread) with your argument.

Arguments not to use
- Irreducible Complexity
- The Second Law of Thermodynamics

I don't want any gold. I just don't believe that science accurately explains why everything that exists is so precisely put togather.

For example a tornado never blows through a junk yard and whips up a brand new corvette out of all the spare parts laying out there. So why should I believe that all these atomic spare parts randomly came togather to form all matter as we know it. And chemical and nerve impulses in the brain don't explain the depth and complexity of human thought. All these things are creations of human thought in an attempt to explain what we see, feel, hear and taste around us.

To me, the only reasonable explination is that something somewhere designed things the way they are.

You can't shake up a box of legos and get a lego starwars millenium falcon. You have to think about what you're doing, and put them togather in a planned manner. The same thing applies to chemical strings. Not all chemicals will form bonds with each other.

But you're looking for something so assinine as, come here I have god under my microscope, take a look. Well it doesn't work that way. It's a situation of the evidence not being a smoking gun, and different people interpret the same evidence as meaning different things. No one has ever explained to me how the big bang created human thought. Evolution and religeon are both creations of human thought as an attempt to explain things that aren't obviously answered.

What's most frusterating to me is that when people talk about religeon they instantly mean christianity. It is the most attacked religeon worldwide. ANd this is not because it is the most far fetched one either. Hindus believe that our ultimate goal is to die and reincarnate as a cow. Tell me that doesn't sound far fetched. Islam, judaism, and christianity parallel on so many different levels, but none of the three are attacked and shot down like christianity is. My question is why? With all the religions out there why do people ultimately attack christianity before they attack the others.

But the most frusteration fact about this topic is that you know good and well you can't scientifically prove something that the scientific method can't measure. It's just your way of gloating.

But here's my question, since your logic is so unflawed.

Prove to me scientifically that god doesn't exist. And simply saying well science hasn't measured and tested god yet so therefore it doesn't exist is not an answer. Science hasn't tested alot of things which are accepted as true, so simply saying that doesn't scientifically disprive god. Neither does saying god hasn't come down and proven himself to me therefore he doesn't exist.
No one has watched evolution take place, so evolution has not come to you and proven it's existance. Therefore it doesn't exist.

Good logic. Thank you for posting.

[A Confused Iguana]

AcursedVandersnow

Prove to me scientifically that god doesn't exist.

Science makes no claims about the existence or non-existence of the supernatural other than the supernatural is not required to describe the universe. Men of straw are unwelcome here.

[icanhaznomorepicklez]

no one can give you "proof" of creation. the only possible proof that would lead one to beleive in creation and therefore God or a supernatural being, is to believe in the supernatural. The supernatural is hard if not impossible to prove it's existence to you through a computer. I beleive because i have had supernatural experiences.

But i hope you know creation and evolution arent at odds. i beleive in both. i simply believe evolution is the mechanism used by God.

[Achtundachtzig]

A Confused Iguana

Nihil, a scam?! gonk

It is not a scam. The fee is to stop us being inundated with people who will waste our time. If you feel that the challenge cannot be met would you go and tell all the people about the world who do think that evidence better supports their conclusion?

Hass und Vergeltung haben wir uns geschworen
Unserer Herzen sie wurden zu Stein

xd Of course I feel the challenge can't be met, an unscientific "theory" cannot by definition be supported scientifically.

@AcursedVandersnow: Actually, we have watched evolution take place. Bacteria evolve at a much faster rate since they're more simple to begin with. Once you catch a disease, you have immunity to that disease- so why do you think people can get a cold many times in their lives? Because the virus or bacteria that causes the cold and flu evolves. Also, we've shaped the evolution of animals- wolves into dogs, for example.

Doch tief in dem Stein da brennt noch ein Feuer
Die Flamme der Freiheit lodernd und rein

[A Confused Iguana]

ZechsK

no one can give you "proof" of creation. the only possible proof that would lead one to beleive in creation and therefore God or a supernatural being, is to believe in the supernatural. The supernatural is hard if not impossible to prove it's existence to you through a computer. I beleive because i have had supernatural experiences.

But i hope you know creation and evolution arent at odds. i beleive in both. i simply believe evolution is the mechanism used by God.

This is not about matters of faith. This is a call to those people who claim that there is demonstrable scientific evidence that supports a conclusion of young- or old-Earth creationism. This does not mean "prove or support that God did it", that is impossible given the restricted scope of the evidence.

Science cannot say if a god was or was not involved. Science can say whether the Earth is under 10,000 years-old and it is these sorts of claims that can be evaluated by evidence. So we ask for it.