2nd class citizenship for illegal (mexican) immigrants

[DarkSohisohi]

How about, instead of making all these illegal immigrants (in the USA) full citizens we just make them second class citizens.

It would work alot like refugee status, they would not be considered a full citizen and as such would not receive the full benefits of being a full citizen, but any children born to second class citizens or in America would be considered full citizens.

But what benefits do we hold back and which ones do we grant, ******** if I know, I'm just throwing ideas at a wall.

[foxxykitty27]

Seems like they're kind of already doing that but without the label, which is why there is controversy.

[I Am Unknowing]

Agreed. If they want to live in the country, they should pay taxes and all that just like anyone else. But being criminals, entering the country illegally, they should be treated like anyone else with a serious felony on their record. No reason to be biased against the children.

My family came here, learned the American way of life, learned English, and ran businesses. They did it legally.

[HyperActiveEmo205]

I Am Unknowing

Agreed. If they want to live in the country, they should pay taxes and all that just like anyone else. But being criminals, entering the country illegally, they should be treated like anyone else with a serious felony on their record. No reason to be biased against the children.

My family came here, learned the American way of life, learned English, and ran businesses. They did it legally.

"Yet the natural instinct tells us that this cannot be, that there is a troubling incongruity in applying the same appellation, criminal, to a rapist and to a poor, honest gardener, that it is a grotesque nonsense to designate with the same epithet a parricide or a serial killer and a decent, truehearted worker." It is a book I am currently reading called "Illegal: Reflections of an Undocumented Immigrant" and certainly one that I recommend for everyone who wants to speak on the matters of immigration. Because, yes, there are people in other countries who have the means of getting into the nation legally, and maintaining that legality (Because a large portion of the undocumented came into the country with legal means). And those people should be given applause. But there are many others who cannot, for whatever reason, who wants an honest living and of course has that illegal nature hanging over their head.

I refuse to take part in delegating what rights a human can or cannot have, based on their position in the planet and the time they were here. Anyone who says they can morally do such, is not someone I can trust. They are already second-class citizens, both legal and illegal in this nation because of bigoted and prejudice views towards these people.

All rights given to US citizens, are rights all humans should be given as well. There is no special distinction that they receive, like getting a noble statues in nations such as Britain. Don't be so quick to judge these people, especially if they do not commit any other crimes other than illegally crossing. They are more hard-working than most of the people I know.

Plus, I got beef with the "learned the American way of life, learned English" bit of your comment, but I don't think this is the place to have that discussion.

[DarkSohisohi]

HyperActiveEmo205

I refuse to take part in delegating what rights a human can or cannot have, based on their position in the planet and the time they were here. Anyone who says they can morally do such, is not someone I can trust. They are already second-class citizens, both legal and illegal in this nation because of bigoted and prejudice views towards these people.

All rights given to US citizens, are rights all humans should be given as well. There is no special distinction that they receive, like getting a noble statues in nations such as Britain. Don't be so quick to judge these people, especially if they do not commit any other crimes other than illegally crossing. They are more hard-working than most of the people I know.

You may refuse to, but the rights of people are already determined by their position on this planet. Hell, we already give out work visas and grant refugee status. An official second class citizenship, ideally, would be leaps ahead of their current status. Which is none.

Maybe things like running for office would not be aloud, or their votes would only be 1/2 or 1/3 of a normal citizens, or other stuff. Eventually all the 2nd citizens will die off in a generation or two. There children would be full citizens, no different then any other native born Americans. Granting citizenship to illegals will halt people from taken advantage of them, but no one wants to grant citizenship to people who cheated their way here. If you want to make sure illegals are taken care of, then most rights or even some are much better than none.

Don't forget, the reason we have to decide what to do with them is because they burdened us with their presence. Or, ******** it, we can always deport their asses back and break up families. ******** if I care, they either compromise something or get nothing. Likewise, you know, 2nd class citizens can always just attempt for 1st class citizenship down the line. Once you begin to entertain the idea, it can be made quite reasonable.

HyperActiveEmo205

Plus, I got beef with the "learned the American way of life, learned English" bit of your comment, but I don't think this is the place to have that discussion.

Fell free to, I consider it on topic.

[Cupcakes HD on youtube]

That would violate the principle of equality.

[Kaltros]

DarkSohisohi

How about, instead of making all these illegal immigrants (in the USA) full citizens we just make them second class citizens.

How about instead of making them helots (second class citizens) we just deport them whenever we can? Otherwise you'll just encourage more to break the law. Not to mention dragging down wages, increasing crime and lowering social trust in society.

Finally, I tend to oppose anything on principle that is supported, it would seem, by all the united billionaires of the world. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Bloomberg, Carlos Slim, Sheldon Adelson... All billionaires, and they all want open borders and endless immigration. Why? To increase their profits. And they're willing to destroy the middle class and the country as we know it to make a bit more cash.

[DarkSohisohi]

Kaltros

DarkSohisohi

How about, instead of making all these illegal immigrants (in the USA) full citizens we just make them second class citizens.

How about instead of making them helots (second class citizens) we just deport them whenever we can? Otherwise you'll just encourage more to break the law. Not to mention dragging down wages, increasing crime and lowering social trust in society.

Finally, I tend to oppose anything on principle that is supported, it would seem, by all the united billionaires of the world. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Bloomberg, Carlos Slim, Sheldon Adelson... All billionaires, and they all want open borders and endless immigration. Why? To increase their profits. And they're willing to destroy the middle class and the country as we know it to make a bit more cash.

Well, immigration to America will never stop, Our birth rates are not high enough to keep up a growing population. That being said, I have no problem with with stronger boarders, I'd prefer stronger boarders. As well a timed ban on mexican immigrants may be needed to insure America does not just become mexico. It's kind of hard now to know if accepting these immigrants is a good thing. They can be just as big of a liability. Normally, the pick of the litter doesn't have to cross the boarder illegally.

But, then again, deporting like 10 million people is going to be hard. And you can bet quite a few have them anchor babies. . . I wonder if Romans had to deal with this s**t?

[Kaltros]

DarkSohisohi

Kaltros

DarkSohisohi

How about, instead of making all these illegal immigrants (in the USA) full citizens we just make them second class citizens.

How about instead of making them helots (second class citizens) we just deport them whenever we can? Otherwise you'll just encourage more to break the law. Not to mention dragging down wages, increasing crime and lowering social trust in society.

Finally, I tend to oppose anything on principle that is supported, it would seem, by all the united billionaires of the world. Mark Zuckerberg, Bill Gates, Warren Buffett, Michael Bloomberg, Carlos Slim, Sheldon Adelson... All billionaires, and they all want open borders and endless immigration. Why? To increase their profits. And they're willing to destroy the middle class and the country as we know it to make a bit more cash.

Well, immigration to America will never stop, Our birth rates are not high enough to keep up a growing population.

Part of that is probably the ongoing economic depression. Responsible people won't have children they're too poor to raise.

Besides, I thought overpopulation was bad? Why has it suddenly become good to cram as many people in a country as possible? Do we really want to push our country closer to the Malthusian limit?

Quote:

That being said, I have no problem with with stronger boarders, I'd prefer stronger boarders. As well a timed ban on mexican immigrants may be needed to insure America does not just become mexico. It's kind of hard now to know if accepting these immigrants is a good thing. They can be just as big of a liability. Normally, the pick of the litter doesn't have to cross the boarder illegally.

But, then again, deporting like 10 million people is going to be hard. And you can bet quite a few have them anchor babies. . .

The anchor baby law should probably be changed. And as for the difficulty, a combination of deportation and stricter enforcement of various interior laws would encourage them to leave on their own.

Quote:

I wonder if Romans had to deal with this s**t?

You could say that. Take this bit of Gibbon's Decline and Fall:

Quote:

The conduct which the emperor Probus had adopted in the disposal of the vanquished was imitated by Diocletian and his associates. The captive barbarians, exchanging death for slavery, were distributed among the provincials and assigned to those districts (in Gaul the territories of Amiens, Beauvais, Cambray, Treves, Langres, and Troyes are particularly specified) which had been depopulated by the calamities of war. They were usefully employed as shepherds and husbandmen but were denied the exercise of arms, except when it was found expedient to enroll them in the military service.

”Nor did the emperors refuse the property of lands with a less servile tenure to such of the barbarians as solicited the protection of Rome. They granted a settlement to several colonies of the Carpi, the Basternae, and the Sarmatians, and by a dangerous indulgence permitted them in some measure to retain their national manners and independence.

“Among the provincials it was a subject of flattering exaltation that the barbarian, so lately an object of terror, now cultivated their lands, drove their cattle to the neighboring fair, and contributed to his labor to the public plenty.

“They congratulated their masters on the powerful accession of subjects and soldiers; but they forgot to observe that secret enemies, insolent from favor or desperate from oppression, were introduced into the heart of the empire.

Chapter XIII, Part 2

[l_Shamrock_l]

HyperActiveEmo205

I Am Unknowing

Agreed. If they want to live in the country, they should pay taxes and all that just like anyone else. But being criminals, entering the country illegally, they should be treated like anyone else with a serious felony on their record. No reason to be biased against the children.

My family came here, learned the American way of life, learned English, and ran businesses. They did it legally.

"Yet the natural instinct tells us that this cannot be, that there is a troubling incongruity in applying the same appellation, criminal, to a rapist and to a poor, honest gardener, that it is a grotesque nonsense to designate with the same epithet a parricide or a serial killer and a decent, truehearted worker." It is a book I am currently reading called "Illegal: Reflections of an Undocumented Immigrant" and certainly one that I recommend for everyone who wants to speak on the matters of immigration. Because, yes, there are people in other countries who have the means of getting into the nation legally, and maintaining that legality (Because a large portion of the undocumented came into the country with legal means). And those people should be given applause. But there are many others who cannot, for whatever reason, who wants an honest living and of course has that illegal nature hanging over their head.

I refuse to take part in delegating what rights a human can or cannot have, based on their position in the planet and the time they were here. Anyone who says they can morally do such, is not someone I can trust. They are already second-class citizens, both legal and illegal in this nation because of bigoted and prejudice views towards these people.

All rights given to US citizens, are rights all humans should be given as well. There is no special distinction that they receive, like getting a noble statues in nations such as Britain. Don't be so quick to judge these people, especially if they do not commit any other crimes other than illegally crossing. They are more hard-working than most of the people I know.

Plus, I got beef with the "learned the American way of life, learned English" bit of your comment, but I don't think this is the place to have that discussion.

The idea that these people are "being treated in a manner similar to that of a serial killer or a rapist", to paraphrase the passage, is simply ridiculous. They are being deported to their country of origin, not put on trial and sent to Pelican Bay.

Your argument also seems to fit "human rights" and "American rights" into the same mold. A human has every right in the world, but as a citizen of a nation your rights are widdled down to what is allowed within that jurisdiction. Not being a citizen of the nation, your rights are widdled down even further. Yes, they want a better life for themselves, I understand that, however the argument should be a logical one instead of an emotional one. When illegal immigrants are a drain on a state's resources, and when they give nothing back, it is a problem on a much larger scale than whatever their supposed freedoms are. I understand that there are solutions, but simply allowing anybody in causes other problems. That's why immigration control is a thing at all.

It's like allowing a tick to feed off your dog because it needs to survive, more tick's coming along to where it's safe to leech, then wondering why your dog's getting sick and what you can do to make it better.

[Prince Ikari]

I support legalizing the illegal immigrants in this country who have not committed any criminal offenses. The ones who have committed criminal offenses (besides being here illegally) should be deported and barred from ever coming into this country again. I personally would love to just deport them all and militarize our southern border but deporting nearly 12 million illegal immigrants would be realistically impossible. However they should not be rewarded with American citizenship and all the benefits that come with that since they did come into this country illegally. If you legalize them then you can bring them out of the shadows and allow them to work and support themselves and their families. No welfare benefits and no voting rights though. That would only encourage more illegal immigration - like what is happening right now with the illegal immigrants flooding in from Central America.

[I Am Unknowing]

HyperActiveEmo205

I Am Unknowing

Agreed. If they want to live in the country, they should pay taxes and all that just like anyone else. But being criminals, entering the country illegally, they should be treated like anyone else with a serious felony on their record. No reason to be biased against the children.

My family came here, learned the American way of life, learned English, and ran businesses. They did it legally.

"Yet the natural instinct tells us that this cannot be, that there is a troubling incongruity in applying the same appellation, criminal, to a rapist and to a poor, honest gardener, that it is a grotesque nonsense to designate with the same epithet a parricide or a serial killer and a decent, truehearted worker." It is a book I am currently reading called "Illegal: Reflections of an Undocumented Immigrant" and certainly one that I recommend for everyone who wants to speak on the matters of immigration. Because, yes, there are people in other countries who have the means of getting into the nation legally, and maintaining that legality (Because a large portion of the undocumented came into the country with legal means). And those people should be given applause. But there are many others who cannot, for whatever reason, who wants an honest living and of course has that illegal nature hanging over their head.

I refuse to take part in delegating what rights a human can or cannot have, based on their position in the planet and the time they were here. Anyone who says they can morally do such, is not someone I can trust. They are already second-class citizens, both legal and illegal in this nation because of bigoted and prejudice views towards these people.

All rights given to US citizens, are rights all humans should be given as well. There is no special distinction that they receive, like getting a noble statues in nations such as Britain. Don't be so quick to judge these people, especially if they do not commit any other crimes other than illegally crossing. They are more hard-working than most of the people I know.

Plus, I got beef with the "learned the American way of life, learned English" bit of your comment, but I don't think this is the place to have that discussion.

Anyone who wants to come to this country and be a citizen must do so legally. My great grandfather came here with no money to his name, didn't know English, and had a wife in Russia. On top of that, the guy was Jewish. That may not seem like a problem to you now, but even in America the Jewish people were persecuted in the early 1900's.

The man came here legally. He learned English. He brought his wife over. She learned English. They started a business. They did everything legally and were respected within their community, and they raised their children to respect and acknowledge their Jewish-Russian culture while at the same time being American.

The problem with illegals is that they've got no respect for this country. They don't care about become legitimate citizens. They don't care about becoming immersed in American culture. Despite what you or anyone else may think, there are still significant cultural differences between the common people in Mexico and the common people in America. Different standards are kept and different social norms are followed. When illegal Mexican immigrants come here and bring their culture with them with no care for American culture, there are conflicts.

Either the illegals must be COMPLETELY integrated or there will be ongoing conflict. (Alternatively, their lifestyle could take over the country. Looking at Mexico, I don't think anyone wants that to happen.)

[Dryskale]

I think the only reason why illegal immigration is such a talking point with politicians is due to their inability to tax non citizens. If people are coming into this country and being productive, then they are actually supporting the economy by filling in jobs that we need done.

However, since the citizen is taxed and receives welfare or subsidies, they can be made to feel negatively against an illegal because the illegal is technically "sapping" their welfare.

In the end its more about taxation than border integrity. People pay illegals less because the illegals aren't getting taxed, so businesses that are legit get hit. Workers who would be taxed are more expensive, so many companies will hire illegals. It is then labeled as "taking advantage" of illegals, when the reality is, its actually cost effect on both sides to do this. Again, its about taxes and not humility.

Racism is used as a tool as well to make people fear illegals from the southern borders as well to gain votes. The overall reality is that illegals are more of a tool for politicians than actually a concerned group.

Just saying.

[Project 429]

That's exactly what South Africa did. Found a country that is comparatively uninhabited, raise the standard of living and suddenly the immigrants start pouring in and overwhelming the infrastructure. You give them partial citizenship as a compromise and suddenly you're Satan. You're setting down new apartheid. The people who you were helping now have a permanent casus beli against you under Trotsky's banner of racism and within a decade suddenly you're the one being persecuted for your race and no one else seems to care.

Only this time, you're not looking at a fence or deportation. You're looking at the systematic murder and you deserve it because you were racist. Force immigrants to assimilate completely or deport them.

Second class citizenship is an act of kindness that will not go unpunished.

[Suicidesoldier#1]

I'm all for streamlining immigration, but we'd need some way to make it so people couldn't just get new ID's anytime they wanted. Maybe for people who have no papers since they're refugees fleeing a conflict, or simply don't have them, we could do some kind of biometric thing, with fingerprints or maybe even DNA. Idk.

Also maybe we could set up a refugee area, to give a place purposefully for these or other homeless people.