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} Hi there, fellow Whovians smile

So I spent the afternoon catching up on Doctor Who and slowly eating a bag of Sour Patch Kids. As I was sucking on a particularly declicious red gummy kid, I had a thought that blew my mind.

In series 6, the first episode (the Christmas special), The Doctor changes a man's (Kazran Sardick) life in order to save the lives of several thousand people (4003? Or 4073? Can't remember...). Near the end, he brings a younger version of Kazran to see himself as an old man. Now, at first, this seems interesting and alright. But red lights and sirens and screeching hyperactive warning signals exploded in my head as young Kazran and old Kazran moved closer, and eventually touched (they hugged, remember?).

Now why should something like that be so dangerous?

Remember the episode in series 1 where Rose goes back to meet her dad? The Doctor warns her (quite sternly, too) to not touch (or even get too close to) her younger self (doing so would rip a hole in the universe or something). Things go straight from the frying pan and into the fire when her mom, noticing the resemblence of Rose and her child (baby Rose), pushes baby Rose towards adult Rose to show her husband.

Why is it suddenly alright for Kazran Sardick to be interacting and coming in contact with his past self, and not for Rose?

Ideas? Thoughts? Was there some explaination or loophole that I missed? {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{
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I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.
Impure Adulation
I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.



}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} You really should watch it. It's nice. Sad. Really sad. But nice :')

Yeah, I always wrote off Cassandra as being too self-absorbed to look very far outside of her realm of existance. I mean, how would it be possible for her to be THE LAST HUMAN in the universe? As The Doctor always says, humans are ridiculously resiliant and full of life. There's no keepin' them down smile {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{
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Whatever W0rks


I figured it was something like this, since there really was no explanation. It didn't really bothered me that much but what you're describing does seem like very bad plot hole. Then again the whole special seemed bad from the start, just finding out that the evil monsters were flying sharks turned me off from the episode entirely. I really did not understand why any one would even come up with this, especially for something like Doctor Who.
Impure Adulation
I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.
First off, she said she was the last "true" human, meaning she was the last pure human. There were others that still looked human but might have been slightly different. No one seemed to question The Doctor and Rose's appearance as humans.

Second, in the episode New Earth (which took place 15 years after her first episode), a whole new race of pure humans is unleashed when all the sick guinea pig people are cured.

Third, in the episode where they go to the end of the universe, The Doctor says that no matter how much the human race changes, they always revert back to this basic form.

Fourth, This is Doctor Who, it has too long of a history for them to not f**k with continuity every now an then.
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Thats The Question
Impure Adulation
I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.
First off, she said she was the last "true" human, meaning she was the last pure human. There were others that still looked human but might have been slightly different. No one seemed to question The Doctor and Rose's appearance as humans.

Second, in the episode New Earth (which took place 15 years after her first episode), a whole new race of pure humans is unleashed when all the sick guinea pig people are cured.

Third, in the episode where they go to the end of the universe, The Doctor says that no matter how much the human race changes, they always revert back to this basic form.

Fourth, This is Doctor Who, it has too long of a history for them to not f**k with continuity every now an then.


Well the Doctor isn't really human which just goes to show that because you look human doesn't mean that you are. It's probably why no one questioned them. As for them releasing the new batch of humans, I guess it does explain why there could be new humans in the year one trillion or something. It didn't really bothered me, it was just a " Huh, that's funny" moment and then moved on with the episode.

As for continuity, I can see if it was something that they decided to change from the old Who to fit in with NuWho, but this wasn't that long ago. Moffat, or who ever wrote this episode, (once again, didn't watch it), shouldn't have forgotten something like this just to fit in with the sentimentality of the episode.
Impure Adulation
Whatever W0rks


I figured it was something like this, since there really was no explanation. It didn't really bothered me that much but what you're describing does seem like very bad plot hole. Then again the whole special seemed bad from the start, just finding out that the evil monsters were flying sharks turned me off from the episode entirely. I really did not understand why any one would even come up with this, especially for something like Doctor Who.


}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} To be honest, if I had let myself get wrapped up in the emotion of the situation, I probably woulnd't have noticed it. But, I was drinking a Monster, and those tend to make my mind work at the speed of light. I should watch more Doctor Who like that :3 ...
They're not really evil flying sharks. And the shark doesn't play *too* much of a role. It all becomes far more technical than just that. And the ending... Bittersweet, but it had to happen that way :'S ... {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{


Thats The Question
First off, she said she was the last "true" human, meaning she was the last pure human. There were others that still looked human but might have been slightly different. No one seemed to question The Doctor and Rose's appearance as humans.

Second, in the episode New Earth (which took place 15 years after her first episode), a whole new race of pure humans is unleashed when all the sick guinea pig people are cured.

Third, in the episode where they go to the end of the universe, The Doctor says that no matter how much the human race changes, they always revert back to this basic form.

Fourth, This is Doctor Who, it has too long of a history for them to not f**k with continuity every now an then..


}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} You're definitely right about that.
And I'd forgotten about the sickness people. That was nice ending :')
Yus. True. I figured he'd said something like that at one point or another razz
Eheheheheh. Also true. Buuuuut.... These seem a bit close together for them to be so... opposing? If it had been in the original run, I would have totally not noticed and would have thought of it as a slight oversight.

Thanks for helping clear up the humans info biggrin {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{
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Whatever W0rks


Just that fact that there were flying sharks just......ugh. I don't know why I'm so put off by this, there have been worse monsters*cough*slytheen*cough*, but flying sharks just seem to ridiculous for me. At least the slytheens looked alien enough for me to be ok with them farting all the time. :/
Impure Adulation
Whatever W0rks


Just that fact that there were flying sharks just......ugh. I don't know why I'm so put off by this, there have been worse monsters*cough*slytheen*cough*, but flying sharks just seem to ridiculous for me. At least the slytheens looked alien enough for me to be ok with them farting all the time. :/
They technically don't fly. The planet has weird cloud structure that allows fish to swim through the clouds, they breath the moisture that the clouds are made up of. So when ever it gets foggy the people hide indoors because the sharks can come down and swim in the fog.
Impure Adulation
Thats The Question
Impure Adulation
I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.
First off, she said she was the last "true" human, meaning she was the last pure human. There were others that still looked human but might have been slightly different. No one seemed to question The Doctor and Rose's appearance as humans.

Second, in the episode New Earth (which took place 15 years after her first episode), a whole new race of pure humans is unleashed when all the sick guinea pig people are cured.

Third, in the episode where they go to the end of the universe, The Doctor says that no matter how much the human race changes, they always revert back to this basic form.

Fourth, This is Doctor Who, it has too long of a history for them to not f**k with continuity every now an then.


Well the Doctor isn't really human which just goes to show that because you look human doesn't mean that you are. It's probably why no one questioned them. As for them releasing the new batch of humans, I guess it does explain why there could be new humans in the year one trillion or something. It didn't really bothered me, it was just a " Huh, that's funny" moment and then moved on with the episode.

As for continuity, I can see if it was something that they decided to change from the old Who to fit in with NuWho, but this wasn't that long ago. Moffat, or who ever wrote this episode, (once again, didn't watch it), shouldn't have forgotten something like this just to fit in with the sentimentality of the episode.
I am sure if you asked Moffet about this he would have some kind of explanation. The hole episode is one big error because The Doctor is crossing his own time stream to go back and change things after he has already become part of events, thus creating a paradox. I just like to think of it as the power of christmas.
Thats The Question
I am sure if you asked Moffet about this he would have some kind of explanation. The hole episode is one big error because The Doctor is crossing his own time stream to go back and change things after he has already become part of events, thus creating a paradox. I just like to think of it as the power of christmas.


}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} Of course he would wink Being the genius that he is, he'd probably be able to think one up on the spot too...
Yeah, that's another thing that bothered me. But, as he has said before, certain points in time and space are fixed and should not be tampered with. Certain points. Not all points. I believe that's true with his own timeline as well. And if this is one of those few points that can be messed with, then why not smile ? Makes for an interesting episode, at least razz .
Bahahaha, true XD When it's Christmas, anything can happen, ne? {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{
Whatever W0rks
Thats The Question
I am sure if you asked Moffet about this he would have some kind of explanation. The hole episode is one big error because The Doctor is crossing his own time stream to go back and change things after he has already become part of events, thus creating a paradox. I just like to think of it as the power of christmas.


}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} Of course he would wink Being the genius that he is, he'd probably be able to think one up on the spot too...
Yeah, that's another thing that bothered me. But, as he has said before, certain points in time and space are fixed and should not be tampered with. Certain points. Not all points. I believe that's true with his own timeline as well. And if this is one of those few points that can be messed with, then why not smile ? Makes for an interesting episode, at least razz .
Bahahaha, true XD When it's Christmas, anything can happen, ne? {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{
But the flux and fixed points in time don't come into play with the becoming part of events.

When they were on the game station and the Daleks were coming for them, Rose asked why they didn't just go back and stop the Daleks before it started. The Doctor said they couldn't because they had become part of events. They still stopped the Daleks, therefore it was a point of time in flux. But if they had gone back to stop the Daleks, it would have only happened because they Daleks from coming. With no Daleks coming they would have no reason to go back, thus paradox.

Same thing here. He only went back because Kazran wasn't nice. Him being nice would negate the purpose of going back to change him, thus paradox.

What it comes down to is if you go back in time with the specific goal of changing something, you create a paradox because your reason for going back in time in the first place no longer exists. Going back in time for another reason but happening to change something is different because your reason for being there still exists.
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Thats The Question
Impure Adulation
Thats The Question
Impure Adulation
I've never seen that Christmas special so I wouldn't know what to say on that, although I've also spotted a few continuity issues as well. Of the top of my head is Cassandra. When we see her first in episode 2 of season one she says that she is the last true human left and this was five billion years into Rose's future yet when the 10th doctor travels to the year one trillion or some thing, we see humans in their basic form. It threw me off for a bit but then I just shrugged it off and continued to watch the episode.
First off, she said she was the last "true" human, meaning she was the last pure human. There were others that still looked human but might have been slightly different. No one seemed to question The Doctor and Rose's appearance as humans.

Second, in the episode New Earth (which took place 15 years after her first episode), a whole new race of pure humans is unleashed when all the sick guinea pig people are cured.

Third, in the episode where they go to the end of the universe, The Doctor says that no matter how much the human race changes, they always revert back to this basic form.

Fourth, This is Doctor Who, it has too long of a history for them to not f**k with continuity every now an then.


Well the Doctor isn't really human which just goes to show that because you look human doesn't mean that you are. It's probably why no one questioned them. As for them releasing the new batch of humans, I guess it does explain why there could be new humans in the year one trillion or something. It didn't really bothered me, it was just a " Huh, that's funny" moment and then moved on with the episode.

As for continuity, I can see if it was something that they decided to change from the old Who to fit in with NuWho, but this wasn't that long ago. Moffat, or who ever wrote this episode, (once again, didn't watch it), shouldn't have forgotten something like this just to fit in with the sentimentality of the episode.
I am sure if you asked Moffet about this he would have some kind of explanation. The hole episode is one big error because The Doctor is crossing his own time stream to go back and change things after he has already become part of events, thus creating a paradox. I just like to think of it as the power of christmas.


Well since it was a Christmas episode I can sorta of deal with all the errors. More than likely I'm just go on believing that this does not really exist. I mean it does exist but I'll pretend it's one of the many adventures the Doctor has that were never televised. That way, I know it still happened but I wont have to deal with the details.
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As for the Past Self touching Future Self thing...

In the season 1 episode, Father's Day, time was ALREADY unstable because Rose had changed the past by saving her father, Pete, from dying.
As the Doctor says, time can be rewritten, but not everything can be. Turns out, Pete's death was a fixed point in time. So by saving him, Rose had caused a paradox, a "wound in time". The Reapers were released and started eating people in this "wound in time" in an attempt to seal it before major damage to the universe could be done. Or something.
The Doctor got Rose, Jackie, baby Rose, Pete, and all the people nearby into a church on the street. His reasoning was that, because the church was so old, that the Reapers couldn't get in? I'm not clear on that bit. But anyway, he warns Rose not to let herself touch her past self, because that would cause ANOTHER paradox (possibly one that would be even worse, because it occurred when time was already messed up), and thus ruin the protection that the old church gave them and let the Reapers in.

Anyway! In A Christmas Carol, the Doctor changes small things about Kazran's past, but nothing important, and nothing that was a fixed point. It's possible that the universe not already being out of whack like it was in Father's Day could be part of the reason that Past Kazran and Future Kazran touching didn't have disastrous consequences.

Yay for speculation~
Camille Saint-Sans
As for the Past Self touching Future Self thing...

In the season 1 episode, Father's Day, time was ALREADY unstable because Rose had changed the past by saving her father, Pete, from dying.
As the Doctor says, time can be rewritten, but not everything can be. Turns out, Pete's death was a fixed point in time. So by saving him, Rose had caused a paradox, a "wound in time". The Reapers were released and started eating people in this "wound in time" in an attempt to seal it before major damage to the universe could be done. Or something.
The Doctor got Rose, Jackie, baby Rose, Pete, and all the people nearby into a church on the street. His reasoning was that, because the church was so old, that the Reapers couldn't get in? I'm not clear on that bit. But anyway, he warns Rose not to let herself touch her past self, because that would cause ANOTHER paradox (possibly one that would be even worse, because it occurred when time was already messed up), and thus ruin the protection that the old church gave them and let the Reapers in.

Anyway! In A Christmas Carol, the Doctor changes small things about Kazran's past, but nothing important, and nothing that was a fixed point. It's possible that the universe not already being out of whack like it was in Father's Day could be part of the reason that Past Kazran and Future Kazran touching didn't have disastrous consequences.

Yay for speculation~


}Endless joy and sadness, and countless hellos and farewells{
}Unchanging from before, the orange sun continues to watch on gently{



} That's actually really well thought out. I couldn't remember if Pete's death had been a fixed point in time or not... Your explanation is definitely the best I've come across so far smile
Thanks for stopping by and ruminating on it with us razz <3 {



}At dusk, I beheld the orange sun with you.{
}With a teary face, you bid an eternal farewell{

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