Jack's Immortality

[fatimagic]

I've already voiced my disgust for Torchwood: Miracle Day, but this is just still bugging me too much to not address. Because of the "Bad Wolf" entity (I'm still not sure exactly what it is), we can assume that Jack is immortal due to some sort of connection with the heart of the TARDIS. Therefore, Jack's immortality is in NO WAY biological, and has NOTHING to do with his blood. So the whole thing with Rex being immortal because he came into contact with Jack's blood makes no sense and is complete bullshit.

Each time Jack dies, he is revived due to some form of continuous energy that was transferred to him from the heart of the TARDIS. Jack's immortality is not biological, but rather manifests in Jack, who is a biological human being. Normally, I can't stand TV Tropes, but one troper posted this theory, which I really like.

TV Tropes

Just had a moment of fridge brilliance/fridge logic. There is that episode where Jack faces the Eldritch Abomination that feeds on life force. Now, Jack's immortality does not seem to be based on life force or any biological cause, but in a quality introduced into the Continuum by Rose that made Jack the fixed point in time he is; his healing factor and his full body regeneration may seem biological, but that is only because he is a biological entity, in reality it is the continuum reasserting him because he MUST exist, as part of this new quality or law Rose accidentally created. Now, in that episode of the original Torchwood, Jack seems to be a bottomless source of life force, this can only be explained as his body translating into a sort of biological language, the non biological cause of his immortality. It's not that he really has that much life force stored in him, it's that since the universe keeps recreating him after he should have disappeared -died-, his body gets/generates/comes with a new charge of life force, because it cannot live without that, in that episode it happened several times in a few minutes. Now, what the Blessing might have taken from Jack was the translated effect, not the cause of his immortality, but one of the consequences, just like the Eldritch Abomination in that other episode was overwhelmed by the amount of life force that Jack was generating each time the universe reasserted him. That would be why the immortality people got was flawed, they where not getting the fixed point in time deal, not even watered down -if that is even possible-, but the Blessing creating huge amounts of life force for the whole human population, in accordance with Jack's biological reaction to his temporal nature, in any case, a flawed process that may have not been sustainable for long. But in any case, this, although it could explain the reason one kind of immortality seemed to became another, still cannot explain the switch between mortal and immortal for Jack and later Rex, the Blessing would have been taking the consequence of Jack's immortality, not the cause, and broadcasting it as the new template for human life -as The Life of a Human Must Never Stop = The Life of All Humans Must Never Stop-. After all, the Blessing seems to be working in terms of a biological morphic field, according to the explanations about how the people near the Blessing, in the past, had been living the exact amount of time that was the average human life expectancy, and had been seeing their lives prolonged as humanity, trough biological means, got the life expectancy increased -in that there did was a switch in direction-. So the Blessing does not seem to be working on the same principle as Jack's immortality, which has been mentioned, is something that should not exist, but is just able to use the effect Jack's body, as a biological entity, generates because of his kind or immortality. So Jack should not have been affected by the Blessing in any way, since he cannot be robbed of his life force, given that the universe would simply recreate Jack, having his body get a fresh charge of life force every time as a consequence. In a way, Jack is a sort of Perpetual Motion Machine, probably one of the reasons he should not exist according to The Doctor.

Any thoughts?

[Twisted Time Lord]

Well it's a hard subject to discuss so I'll just throw random thoughts out and you take em if you like em. Technically from what I gather watching Doctor Who and Torchwood, Jack in some ways is actually dead but because of whatever Rose did to him as the bad wolf entity not only does his body revive after dieing but he ages very slowly. If this loop or whatever you want to call it affects the rate at which he ages perhaps it is affecting his body in a "time" related way as well. Okay got that out of the way, the idea I have is since Rose didn't really know what she was doing with the powers she gained from the Tardis perhaps the energy source affects anything that has to do with Jack's DNA whether it's still in or a part of his main body? If that be the case and some of his DNA mixes with someone else's; in this case blood maybe the energy source just transfers to that person as well since his DNA is mixed with some of their DNA as well.

[Fillis]

Well I think that they may be making fun of dragon ball with those characters that never seemed to stay dead. Well it would be interesting to see if there is any other characters that will get the immunity badge. biggrin

[Ratttking]

Fillis

Well I think that they may be making fun of dragon ball with those characters that never seemed to stay dead. Well it would be interesting to see if there is any other characters that will get the immunity badge. biggrin

I think you mean immortality, and I guess you did not see the finale of Miracle Day, so I will not spoil it for you.

[DeathByTorchwood3]

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

[Amarth]

Rikku Hajime

Well it's a hard subject to discuss so I'll just throw random thoughts out and you take em if you like em. Technically from what I gather watching Doctor Who and Torchwood, Jack in some ways is actually dead but because of whatever Rose did to him as the bad wolf entity not only does his body revive after dieing but he ages very slowly. If this loop or whatever you want to call it affects the rate at which he ages perhaps it is affecting his body in a "time" related way as well. Okay got that out of the way, the idea I have is since Rose didn't really know what she was doing with the powers she gained from the Tardis perhaps the energy source affects anything that has to do with Jack's DNA whether it's still in or a part of his main body? If that be the case and some of his DNA mixes with someone else's; in this case blood maybe the energy source just transfers to that person as well since his DNA is mixed with some of their DNA as well.

True, but they mention that Jack had children before. He has a daughter who had a boy, Jack's grandson. She mentions that it would be strange for her child to realise that his grandfather is not aging at all, or that soon he will be younger looking than his grandson or his daughter. The grandson also dies once and does not come back. Both the grandson and the daughter of Jack's grew up at a normal pace.

These are two people, that had Jack's DNA directly from him, mixed with their mother's DNA, therefor if anyone, would it not have been them, who - if immortality was inheritable - would have gotten it from him? And not to mention the children of many people Jack has slept with and not used protection with wink .

[Amarth]

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

Ah, missed reading this before I replied but it does say similar things! I have forgotten completely that John Hart was given a mix of Jack's blood. But, given that thought I think John Hart would be rather delighted if he suddenly realised he needs not fear being shot at for the sake of dying permanently! And the team would be infused with that blood after staying at the hub for a certain amount of time and proving themselves trustworthy, ..ok, maybe not, if Jack believed living forever is a curse not to be given to others, but accidents happen and the team isn't exactly the example of perfect obedience.

However, this being so lets look at Jack's aging process...

Jack Harkness probably ages not because it would make sense and he would eventually need to grow old - he is a fact, an unchanging fact supposedly, and facts don't change, right? - but because if the same actor was to play him (and Jack has the face of Barrowman, and can't exactly regenerate into a different young face) he (Barrowman) certainly, obviously, does not look younger as time passes. Not even a whole lot of plastic surgery could make him look as young as he was when he was first 'brought from the dead'.

[BogiePop]

He dies eventually as the Face of Boe.

[fatimagic]

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

THANK YOU SO ******** MUCH FOR THISSSSSSSSS. <3

My thoughts exactly. And I love that you included Rhys in the Torchwood 3 family. I bloody love him. "The smell from Tony's is drivin' me crackas!" LOL

Though honestly, I do consider CoE canon, minus the unspeakable death. That whole storyline just blew me away. CoE is still good old Welsh Torchwood. Miracle Day is...not. And that's not even the beginning of my problems with it. I literally couldn't get through all ten episodes, it was so excuciating to watch. DX

And you bring up great points about Alice, as well.

[fatimagic]

Amarth

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

Ah, missed reading this before I replied but it does say similar things! I have forgotten completely that John Hart was given a mix of Jack's blood. But, given that thought I think John Hart would be rather delighted if he suddenly realised he needs not fear being shot at for the sake of dying permanently! And the team would be infused with that blood after staying at the hub for a certain amount of time and proving themselves trustworthy, ..ok, maybe not, if Jack believed living forever is a curse not to be given to others, but accidents happen and the team isn't exactly the example of perfect obedience.

However, this being so lets look at Jack's aging process...

Jack Harkness probably ages not because it would make sense and he would eventually need to grow old - he is a fact, an unchanging fact supposedly, and facts don't change, right? - but because if the same actor was to play him (and Jack has the face of Barrowman, and can't exactly regenerate into a different young face) he (Barrowman) certainly, obviously, does not look younger as time passes. Not even a whole lot of plastic surgery could make him look as young as he was when he was first 'brought from the dead'.

So Jack is not immortal, per se, he just gets continuously revived due to the TARDIS energy and ages EXTREMELY slowly? That seems a bit odd, since he was buried alive for almost two thousand years, and didn't age a day.

But there is no way that Jack's immortality is in any way biological. If it were in his blood or his DNA, Alice, Steven, or his other relatives would have been affected by it. It seems more plausible that the explanation above is the case. The universe, or the energy of the TARDIS keeps reviving Jack. His body doesn't revive itself. But then, suppose the TARDIS were damaged? Would Jack still be able to be revived?

Either way, it makes you wonder if Jane Espenson ever watched the real Torchwood. My guess is, she didn't.

[kinnykins]

yum_pumpkinpie yum_icecreampie yum_strawberrypie yum_pie

I didn't even ******** watch Miracle Day.

[Amarth]

x0_FATIMAGIC

Amarth

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

Ah, missed reading this before I replied but it does say similar things! I have forgotten completely that John Hart was given a mix of Jack's blood. But, given that thought I think John Hart would be rather delighted if he suddenly realised he needs not fear being shot at for the sake of dying permanently! And the team would be infused with that blood after staying at the hub for a certain amount of time and proving themselves trustworthy, ..ok, maybe not, if Jack believed living forever is a curse not to be given to others, but accidents happen and the team isn't exactly the example of perfect obedience.

However, this being so lets look at Jack's aging process...

Jack Harkness probably ages not because it would make sense and he would eventually need to grow old - he is a fact, an unchanging fact supposedly, and facts don't change, right? - but because if the same actor was to play him (and Jack has the face of Barrowman, and can't exactly regenerate into a different young face) he (Barrowman) certainly, obviously, does not look younger as time passes. Not even a whole lot of plastic surgery could make him look as young as he was when he was first 'brought from the dead'.

So Jack is not immortal, per se, he just gets continuously revived due to the TARDIS energy and ages EXTREMELY slowly? That seems a bit odd, since he was buried alive for almost two thousand years, and didn't age a day.

But there is no way that Jack's immortality is in any way biological. If it were in his blood or his DNA, Alice, Steven, or his other relatives would have been affected by it. It seems more plausible that the explanation above is the case. The universe, or the energy of the TARDIS keeps reviving Jack. His body doesn't revive itself. But then, suppose the TARDIS were damaged? Would Jack still be able to be revived?

Either way, it makes you wonder if Jane Espenson ever watched the real Torchwood. My guess is, she didn't.

Agreed. Although they say that he ages and he even jokes about it to the Doctor, it is odd. If he is a fact... can a fact actually get older in time? Isn't it a moment in time and remains as such never to change but to be 'revived' over and over due to the energy which he was made by?

Again, agreed about Jack's immortality not being biological! As I said before, the first people who would show the effects if it was hereditary, would be his flesh and blood, Alice, Steven. But they are as mortal as any other boy or girl, born on Earth.

It's an interesting question if the Tardis itself is reviving Jack, or if the energy that was in the Tardis.. but somehow is not in relation to the Tardis's own well being, that does this. I don't think that Jane did watch Torchwood or in this case, that she watched Doctor Who , to get better acquainted with what Jack Harkness was, how he came to be, and how he became the immortal, never dying for good man.

The team that Jack Harkness had before (Tosh, Owen, Ianto, Gwen) was actually an interesting combination of people, who were not per se, beautiful models (and it was better so! They were normal!), but had depth and they were easily liked (even the not so friendly types) for how down to earth they were, in a way, and yet how unusual their job was. They just had that something. Each was unique and could be recognised as a separate individual in their own right.

[DeathByTorchwood3]

x0_FATIMAGIC

Amarth

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

Ah, missed reading this before I replied but it does say similar things! I have forgotten completely that John Hart was given a mix of Jack's blood. But, given that thought I think John Hart would be rather delighted if he suddenly realised he needs not fear being shot at for the sake of dying permanently! And the team would be infused with that blood after staying at the hub for a certain amount of time and proving themselves trustworthy, ..ok, maybe not, if Jack believed living forever is a curse not to be given to others, but accidents happen and the team isn't exactly the example of perfect obedience.

However, this being so lets look at Jack's aging process...

Jack Harkness probably ages not because it would make sense and he would eventually need to grow old - he is a fact, an unchanging fact supposedly, and facts don't change, right? - but because if the same actor was to play him (and Jack has the face of Barrowman, and can't exactly regenerate into a different young face) he (Barrowman) certainly, obviously, does not look younger as time passes. Not even a whole lot of plastic surgery could make him look as young as he was when he was first 'brought from the dead'.

So Jack is not immortal, per se, he just gets continuously revived due to the TARDIS energy and ages EXTREMELY slowly? That seems a bit odd, since he was buried alive for almost two thousand years, and didn't age a day.

But there is no way that Jack's immortality is in any way biological. If it were in his blood or his DNA, Alice, Steven, or his other relatives would have been affected by it. It seems more plausible that the explanation above is the case. The universe, or the energy of the TARDIS keeps reviving Jack. His body doesn't revive itself. But then, suppose the TARDIS were damaged? Would Jack still be able to be revived?

Either way, it makes you wonder if Jane Espenson ever watched the real Torchwood. My guess is, she didn't.

Yeah I doubt she ever watched the real Torchwood. Silly muggles.

[fatimagic]

Amarth

x0_FATIMAGIC

Amarth

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

Ah, missed reading this before I replied but it does say similar things! I have forgotten completely that John Hart was given a mix of Jack's blood. But, given that thought I think John Hart would be rather delighted if he suddenly realised he needs not fear being shot at for the sake of dying permanently! And the team would be infused with that blood after staying at the hub for a certain amount of time and proving themselves trustworthy, ..ok, maybe not, if Jack believed living forever is a curse not to be given to others, but accidents happen and the team isn't exactly the example of perfect obedience.

However, this being so lets look at Jack's aging process...

Jack Harkness probably ages not because it would make sense and he would eventually need to grow old - he is a fact, an unchanging fact supposedly, and facts don't change, right? - but because if the same actor was to play him (and Jack has the face of Barrowman, and can't exactly regenerate into a different young face) he (Barrowman) certainly, obviously, does not look younger as time passes. Not even a whole lot of plastic surgery could make him look as young as he was when he was first 'brought from the dead'.

So Jack is not immortal, per se, he just gets continuously revived due to the TARDIS energy and ages EXTREMELY slowly? That seems a bit odd, since he was buried alive for almost two thousand years, and didn't age a day.

But there is no way that Jack's immortality is in any way biological. If it were in his blood or his DNA, Alice, Steven, or his other relatives would have been affected by it. It seems more plausible that the explanation above is the case. The universe, or the energy of the TARDIS keeps reviving Jack. His body doesn't revive itself. But then, suppose the TARDIS were damaged? Would Jack still be able to be revived?

Either way, it makes you wonder if Jane Espenson ever watched the real Torchwood. My guess is, she didn't.

Agreed. Although they say that he ages and he even jokes about it to the Doctor, it is odd. If he is a fact... can a fact actually get older in time? Isn't it a moment in time and remains as such never to change but to be 'revived' over and over due to the energy which he was made by?

Again, agreed about Jack's immortality not being biological! As I said before, the first people who would show the effects if it was hereditary, would be his flesh and blood, Alice, Steven. But they are as mortal as any other boy or girl, born on Earth.

It's an interesting question if the Tardis itself is reviving Jack, or if the energy that was in the Tardis.. but somehow is not in relation to the Tardis's own well being, that does this. I don't think that Jane did watch Torchwood or in this case, that she watched Doctor Who , to get better acquainted with what Jack Harkness was, how he came to be, and how he became the immortal, never dying for good man.

The team that Jack Harkness had before (Tosh, Owen, Ianto, Gwen) was actually an interesting combination of people, who were not per se, beautiful models (and it was better so! They were normal!), but had depth and they were easily liked (even the not so friendly types) for how down to earth they were, in a way, and yet how unusual their job was. They just had that something. Each was unique and could be recognised as a separate individual in their own right.

I had forgotten that Jack was a fixed point in time. I suppose if fixed events can last a for certain duration of time, then so can Jack. The thing is, Jack is a biological entity, so that duration may manifest itself as VERY SLOW aging. Really, the thing that confuses me more than any is how it's possible for Jack to be the Face of Boe. The Face of Boe is not biological human, whereas Jack is. Sure, all living things are bound to evolve over millions of years--but to me, it seems a bit of a stretch.

In terms of Miracle Day, I don't understand how such an amazing writer like RTD could produce something like that in good conscience. One of the things that bothered me most about MD was that the American writers can't seem to differentiate between omnisexuality and homosexuality. The thing about all of Jack's relationships--sexual or otherwise, was that they all meant something. In MD, he only sleeps with guys, and has all kinds of wierd and meaningless sex. Dare I say, it was really out of character for Jack. The new characters in MD were all assholes (with the exception of Vera and Esther, but I bloody HATED Vera, and Esther was pretty useless. I did like seeing Gwen take on a sort of "mother role" with her for a bit, though.), and the plot was all gratuitous body horror and no heart or soul.

Children of Earth may have put a halt to the real Torchwood, but it had heart, meaning, and the same good old Torchwood vibe. It really blew me away. It would have honestly initially broken my heart if CoE had been the end of Torchwood, but it's ending really could have ended the series. That way, Jack, Gwen, Rhys, and Anwen coould have spent some time with the Doctor instead of taking part in the abomination that is MD.

I just really miss the Torchwood Five (and Rhys).

Question: did Rose direct the Bad Wolf entity specifically at Jack? Otherwise, you'd think all of the other people on Satellite Five would have been revived, as well. Then again, it would seem a bit wierd if it she managed to direct it at only Jack, since she had a hard time controlling it, to say the least.

[DeathByTorchwood3]

x0_FATIMAGIC

DeathByTorchwood3

You make a great point! Miracle Day pisses me off. I like to believe it didn't happen. wink That the Torchwood 3 family (Jack, Ianto, Gwen, Rhys, Owen, and Tosh) are still alive and fighting.

How come others aren't immortal then, if that's the case? I'm sure other members of his team, his family, etc. came in contact with his blood? I mean, for Davros' sake, they had vials of his blood! If it has to do with blood, then how come his daughter (who has his blood) is mortal?

Also, John Hart was given a shot of his blood (mixed with the other TW3 members) in an episode. How come he didn't become immortal?

COE and MD were nightmares and major face palmage...

THANK YOU SO ******** MUCH FOR THISSSSSSSSS. <3

My thoughts exactly. And I love that you included Rhys in the Torchwood 3 family. I bloody love him. "The smell from Tony's is drivin' me crackas!" LOL

Though honestly, I do consider CoE canon, minus the unspeakable death. That whole storyline just blew me away. CoE is still good old Welsh Torchwood. Miracle Day is...not. And that's not even the beginning of my problems with it. I literally couldn't get through all ten episodes, it was so excuciating to watch. DX

And you bring up great points about Alice, as well.

I do think CoE was brilliantly written plot wise, but I just can't watch it. Ianto's death reminds me too much of my aunts and I lose it. Soooo, I just stay away from it.

Not too mention, I have issues with children episodes like that... I can barely watch them. If you know what I mean?

Unspeakable death, do you mean who I think you mean?

I consider it canon, I just like it when Torchwood 3 was Jack, Owen, Gwen, Tosh, Ianto, and Rhys. It wouldn't be Torchwood without the deaths but at the same time it's like, "RTD, Y U NO KEEP THE TEAM ALIVE?!" Or at least let them die of old age? Ha!

I love Rhys too! He's so fun! I feel bad for him for all that Gwen did to him and caused him to go through.

I couldn't finish all of Miracle Day. I'd already read the whole synopsis and shizz online, so I knew what happened. It just... It wasn't Torchwood. Simple as that. (In my opinion.)

Also, one of the things I actually loved from CoE, was Gwen's recording. The one where she talks about The Doctor. I absolutely love that.