RIP to Battle for the Cowl - Your every question answered.

[Linda Lee Danvers]

Sorce

The entire run (complete with Pinder's Black Casebook, and the tie-ins) is available on the internet. I mention this because I don't think all the trades are out yet, and the Casebook comes in handy. And obviously you should buy the available trades first.

Well, I wouldn't be buying them all in one sitting, so this is an ongoing project.

[Pinderpanda 600]

Linda Lee Danvers

Where should I start if I'm getting it in trades?

That's a question I ought to put in; "How is this collected?" 3nodding

For the purposes of your experiment though you're after Batman and Son (out now in trade!), The Black Glove (out now in hardback, probably won't be long till the trade!) and Batman RIP (out in hardback the second week of feburary!).

Technologist Tony Stark

Well what is the general critical response to Morrison's Batman? Anyone been keeping track?

Wildy polarised along the predictable 'fan tribe' lines.

I think it's more interesting to have a look at something like this...
http://www.jeffvandermeer.com/2009/01/26/surreal-noir-something-stirring-redux/

Where ace editor, anthologist, author and speaker of truths Jeff Vandermeer predicts that literary fantasy is heading into a period of "surreal noir" in 2009.

We might end up looking back on Morrison's Batman (or this phase of Morrison's Batman anyway) as having been about a year ahead of the cutting edge. cool

[iMethuselah]

Anyone know what issues Batman and Son collects? I may just break down and buy that instead of searching for the individual issues that start Morrison's run. I know I have the Black Glove issues.

[Pinderpanda 600]

Batman and Son collects #655-658 (Batman and Son), #663 (The Clown at Midnight), #664-5 (The Three Ghosts of Batman) and #666 (Bethlehem).

(#659-632, if you're wondering, were an unconnected Ostrander/Mandrake fill-in story)

[iMethuselah]

pinderpanda

Batman and Son collects #655-658 (Batman and Son), #663 (The Clown at Midnight), #664-5 (The Three Ghosts of Batman) and #666 (Bethlehem).

(#659-632, if you're wondering, were an unconnected Ostrander/Mandrake fill-in story)

Okay, so I guess I will go out and pick up Batman and Son. Thanks for the info, Pinder. Once again you have been helpful.

[raye rei]

Lunaris Wolf

pinderpanda

Batman and Son collects #655-658 (Batman and Son), #663 (The Clown at Midnight), #664-5 (The Three Ghosts of Batman) and #666 (Bethlehem).

(#659-632, if you're wondering, were an unconnected Ostrander/Mandrake fill-in story)

Okay, so I guess I will go out and pick up Batman and Son. Thanks for the info, Pinder. Once again you have been helpful.

I recommend it. I think it was a well handled story. The bethlehem was a bit weird. But still intriguing.

Pinder. Now that I think about it. Would you say that the Bethelem story has a bigger connection than we would have thought to the black glove story? Since in your fact you say that the devil is the leader of the black glove. And considering what happened in Bethlehem makes sense...

Something just hit me. I dont know what issue it was. But the Batman from Bethlehem. In a issue he was revealing the backstory about how the 3 batmen came to be. And in his origin. His family was supposedly killed by satanists. At least it was made to look like that. To give that necessary trauma that could create the next Batman. And considering Dr. Hurt was the one behind all of this. It makes it kind of more twisted than before. Might be revealing a bigger connection about the Devil than we thought.

[iMethuselah]

raye rei

Lunaris Wolf

pinderpanda

Batman and Son collects #655-658 (Batman and Son), #663 (The Clown at Midnight), #664-5 (The Three Ghosts of Batman) and #666 (Bethlehem).

(#659-632, if you're wondering, were an unconnected Ostrander/Mandrake fill-in story)

Okay, so I guess I will go out and pick up Batman and Son. Thanks for the info, Pinder. Once again you have been helpful.

I recommend it. I think it was a well handled story. The bethlehem was a bit weird. But still intriguing.

Actually, I have read issue #666. I own everything from #665 and up (plus a few trades from the 90's). I kind of liked #666. I always see people saying bad things about it, but it didn't really bother me all that much. I actually just got done re-reading it to make sure and, yeah, I still have the same feeling as the first time I read it. Nothing wrong with it in my eyes. Actually, reading it after R.I.P. is all said and done, it does kind of fit in.

I doubt they'll have Damien become the next Batman after Battle for the Cowl, but when he mentions the death of The Batman in #666, it's kind of.... funny, I guess is the word I'm looking for. I know there's a more appropriate word, but I can't think of it right now.

[Pinderpanda 600]

raye rei

Pinder. Now that I think about it. Would you say that the Bethelem story has a bigger connection than we would have thought to the black glove story? Since in your fact you say that the devil is the leader of the black glove.

Deffo. Though remember that the stuff in the 'What does it mean?' section is more interpret-y than the other sections, which are strictly fact-y.

When I get round to writing up the bit about the Joker's black and red pattern then I'll talk a lot about how Batman RIP problematises the whole business of interpretation - of reading symbols and turning them into meaning. You've zoomed in on a particular bit of the story where a whole bag of spanners being thrown into the workings of that process.

Over and over again (Three Ghosts of Batman, Bethlehem, Joe Chill in Hell, Batman Dies At Dawn) we're given a metaphorical answer to the question "Who is the Black Glove?" and invited to interpret, analyse and translate that metaphor. Then we get to the big reveal and find out that...no, it wasn't a metaphor. It was what was literally going on. Sometimes a cigar is just evil incarnate.

You've already noticed the most important thing about this...

raye rei

But the Batman from Bethlehem. In a issue he was revealing the backstory about how the 3 batmen came to be. And in his origin. His family was supposedly killed by satanists. At least it was made to look like that. To give that necessary trauma that could create the next Batman. And considering Dr. Hurt was the one behind all of this. It makes it kind of more twisted than before.

3nodding 3nodding 3nodding

The Third Man belives that Doctor Hurt is the Devil because the Third Man is barking mad.
It just also happens to be the case that Doctor Hurt is the Devil.

Compare that with how the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh operates...the guy's off his trolley, but the delusions he's suffering from turn out pretty useful, don't they?

Back in 'The Clown at Midnight' then the Joker asks (like Seven Soldiers' subway pirates before him), "Why be a disfigured outcast when I can be a notorious crime god?" and why would anyone want to be a homeless smackhead when they could be the Superman-Batman of Planet X?

The Third Man's obsession with SATAN comes from two lies; Hurt's error in thinking that it's the tragedy that makes the Batman rather than the Batman that makes sense of the tragedy, and the faked satanic killing of his family. Nevertheless that obsession is more functionally true than any of the conclusions reached by a reasonable and rational attempt to fit together the 'clues'.

As I say, lots more of this stuff when I write up the thing on the Joker's pattern.

RIP is interesting.

[Pinderpanda 600]

Lunaris Wolf

I doubt they'll have Damien become the next Batman after Battle for the Cowl, but when he mentions the death of The Batman in #666, it's kind of.... funny, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

Give it a third read and you'll spot that it's not the death of the Bruce Wayne Batman that Damien's talking about in that issue. eek

I also think we'll see that future averted, but in its timeline then d**k succeds Bruce as Batman. Damien is then somehow responsible for d**k's death and eventually becomes the third Batman.

Hah! It's only typing this out that I've noticed that #666 has a 'Third Batman' fighting the Third Man. Batman RIP is interesting.

[iMethuselah]

pinderpanda

Lunaris Wolf

I doubt they'll have Damien become the next Batman after Battle for the Cowl, but when he mentions the death of The Batman in #666, it's kind of.... funny, I guess is the word I'm looking for.

Give it a third read and you'll spot that it's not the death of the Bruce Wayne Batman that Damien's talking about in that issue. eek

I also think we'll see that future averted, but in its timeline then d**k succeds Bruce as Batman. Damien is then somehow responsible for d**k's death and eventually becomes the third Batman.

Hah! It's only typing this out that I've noticed that #666 has a 'Third Batman' fighting the Third Man. Batman RIP is interesting.

Time to pull that issue from the box once again and read it for the third time to watch the third Batman beat-up the Third Man 3nodding

[Cissy-Chan]

Bwah, I have to look at the main page more often. Thank you for this wonderful thread Pinder.

I do feel a little silly though. I know Turpin from the Bruce Timm Superman Adventures cartoon. Turpins gets killed during Darkseids first takeover of earth. He's the only human willing to stand up to Darkseid when the big bad has Supes crucified on his superevil tank and is parading Supes around to frighten the mortals. Knowing that Turpin (who was the essential mortal hero of Superman Adventures) made his downfall particularly sad in FC.

That had nothing to do with my Bat's though, did it sweatdrop .

[Max Mercury]

Cissy-Chan

Bwah, I have to look at the main page more often. Thank you for this wonderful thread Pinder.

I do feel a little silly though. I know Turpin from the Bruce Timm Superman Adventures cartoon. Turpins gets killed during Darkseids first takeover of earth. He's the only human willing to stand up to Darkseid when the big bad has Supes crucified on his superevil tank and is parading Supes around to frighten the mortals. Knowing that Turpin (who was the essential mortal hero of Superman Adventures) made his downfall particularly sad in FC.

That had nothing to do with my Bat's though, did it sweatdrop .

From "Terrible" Turpin's introduction, he was THE mortal police officer that didn't flinch when
facing Apokaliptan villains. His first appearance had him find a way to take down KALIBAK.

[Emily Macabre]

FINALLY!

I get it a bit more know....