RIP to Battle for the Cowl - Your every question answered.

[raye rei]

pinderpanda

raye rei

God bless Pinder for being so brave to classify all of this for the poor fan who got lost in this. 3nodding

Thanks! smile When this life is done, the Pearly Holodeck Doors will open, and I shall be rewarded in Geek Heaven.

raye rei

What was BatMite about there? Was he real or just imaginary >< That and the thing left me wondering was the red skies in the issue where he was drugged up and crashing while talking to that homeless man who Bruce inevitablly helped die by giving him money a couple issues back

I can do them! cool

This evening, when I've the books to hand, I'll update with...

What do the red skies mean?

How dead was was Honor Jackson?

What was Bat-Mite all about?

Over the weekend I might also stick up...

Who (and why) was the Black Glove?

and

How exactly did the Joker talk with his tounge sliced in half?

Or I might go out.

Cool! I've been quoted lol whee
Oh geez....I forgot about Joker slicing his tongue crying
That still creeps me out gonk

[Nekotalim_II]

raye rei

God bless Pinder for being so brave to classify all of this for the poor fan who got lost in this. 3nodding
I know Azrael was mentioned in Rip's board. And it was mentioned on there that it wasnt Jean Paul. But I agree with one thing. What was BatMite about there? Was he real or just imaginary >< That and the thing left me wondering was the red skies in the issue where he was drugged up and crashing while talking to that homeless man who Bruce inevitablly helped die by giving him money a couple issues back

It's one of Gotham's more Unique features in Batman The Animated Series, Red Skies I mean.

[iMethuselah]

I never cared for the red skies in the Animated series. They always sort of bothered me.

[raye rei]

Nekotalim_II

raye rei

God bless Pinder for being so brave to classify all of this for the poor fan who got lost in this. 3nodding
I know Azrael was mentioned in Rip's board. And it was mentioned on there that it wasnt Jean Paul. But I agree with one thing. What was BatMite about there? Was he real or just imaginary >< That and the thing left me wondering was the red skies in the issue where he was drugged up and crashing while talking to that homeless man who Bruce inevitablly helped die by giving him money a couple issues back

It's one of Gotham's more Unique features in Batman The Animated Series, Red Skies I mean.

Mmm quite true. But the comics almost never use them. And this happening in the R.I.P. story line fed into some believing that issue with where Bruce becomes the Batman of Zur en Arhh to be a direct tie in to Final Crisis. Despite it being way to early for it. And especially next issue where the night sky looked nornal. It was quite weird to say the least :/

[Max Mercury]

I'm convinced it was meant to mislead people into thinking it tied in to Final Crisis.
(That sounds more like Didio to me.)
In "Crisis on Infinite Earths", a lot of comics labelled "Crisis crossover" had
a few lines of dialogue concerning the Crisis, and people looking at the red skies.

The thing-a crossover that is only one in name- became known as a "red skies
crossover" after that.

Then again, Morrison may have been thumbing his nose at the concept of
the "red skies crossover." That seems more like Morrison to me.

Depends on who ordered it.

[Veronica Cale]

pinderpanda

Unless...no, there's now way you could have known this was written to Celeb BB.

... that slightly crossed my mind yeah.

[raye rei]

Max Mercury

I'm convinced it was meant to mislead people into thinking it tied in to Final Crisis.
(That sounds more like Didio to me.)
In "Crisis on Infinite Earths", a lot of comics labelled "Crisis crossover" had
a few lines of dialogue concerning the Crisis, and people looking at the red skies.

The thing-a crossover that is only one in name- became known as a "red skies
crossover" after that.

Then again, Morrison may have been thumbing his nose at the concept of
the "red skies crossover." That seems more like Morrison to me.

Depends on who ordered it.

Got a point there. I wouldnt put it pass DiDido though. Considering all the bat titles had that horrible R.I.P. flag on them. When most had no bearing on this whatsoever. Plus his supposed final crisis tie ins with that Darkside Club banner. Those proved truly pointless. Cause they had no real bearings on any of it. Those looking back at it now, would have better saved for the Terror Titans.

[Pinderpanda 600]

pinderpanda

Or I might go out.

I went out.

Aiming for the RIP-specific-plot-points update on Tuesday now.
(Just a day before that FINAL FATE)

Veronica Cale

pinderpanda

Unless...no, there's now way you could have known this was written to Celeb BB.

... that slightly crossed my mind yeah.

It's bloody harrowing watching this year.
All this "Get Pinder Out!" business.
I'm so used now to "pinder" just meaning me that I've taken it very personal.

[Emma Houxbois]

I wonder if I should conceal my moment of evil glee at hearing she was ousted (because it would naturally result in more attention on us twisted ), then. I'm somewhat baffled that Coolio somehow made it in there.

[ScottyQuick]

Wow, that guide was awesome. The thing that interests me the most though, is Simone/Bendis flamewars? I read the thread where said she thought Peter's gay and Bendis was all "Wtf? R u running out of ways to sell your book?" + the one where she said that she felt like Marvel had a bit of a boys club feeling, and Bendis said that's bullshit she owed Marvel an apology, but did any other flamewars happen?

[Veronica Cale]

Great Tattooist Oni

I wonder if I should conceal my moment of evil glee at hearing she was ousted (because it would naturally result in more attention on us twisted ), then. I'm somewhat baffled that Coolio somehow made it in there.

We're talking about someone whose name is a mixture of the words Cool and Julio..
How much more Celebrityness can anyone have ?. He was born for this, I tell you.

[Pinderpanda 600]

Here's a couple more answers to be going along with. Still quote-gathering for the other outstanding questions.

What does it mean?
Note: Batman RIP is polysemic, ambiguous, elliptical and all those other things that're great for literature and troublesome for bald 'fact files' like this. The section that follows therefore cannot aim to be as 'definitive' as does the rest of the guide, but can only aim to be plausibly interpretive.

What do the red skies mean?

Red skies appear on a number of occasions throughout Morrison's Batman RIP.

In the opening 'flash forward' sequence to events six months after the main storyline, over the skies of contemporary Gotham as Batman pursues 'The Green Vulture', during the sunset Honor Jackson shares with Bruce, and during Bruce's subsequent transformation into the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh.

Red skies have a particular meaning in DCU-lore. They were first seen during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, most notoriously in what became known as "Red Sky Crossovers" - issues marketed as Crisis tie-ins which had little connection to the storyline other than that particular colouring choice.

They are now a familiar omen of disaster. As DCU#0 puts it, "When the Multiverse is on the verge of destruction, when the skies drip red as the barriers between parallel universes bleed... When Earth's greatest heroes rise up together, willing to sacrifice everything they have in defense of all they hold dear... That war is called a Crisis."

2006's Ion maxiseries eventually revealled that the reason for this is that the weakening of the walls between universes during times of Crisis allows for a glimpse of 'the Bleed', an arterial channel between realities first introduced in Warren Ellis's Stormwatch run which went on to become a major part of the cosmologies of both Wildstorm and Final Crisis.

The association of red skies with Crises raises the question of RIP's association with Final Crisis. Addressing this in an interview Morrison says, "it could be the start of it, because those red skies have been seeping in for a while, but it's certainly not happening at the same time as Final Crisis #1. It could be happening a week before or something, but I haven't exactly specified it." (IGN, August 2008 ). So the red skies should be seen as signs that the Final Crisis was immanent, rather than that it was underway. This fits the sequence of events in the story.

This leaves the red skies in the six-months-later 'flash forward' sequences however...

"That's actually even more in the future than Battle for the Cowl," says Tony Daniel, "[That] would, hypothetically, appear at the very end of it" (Daniel, Newsarama, December 2008 ).

This places them well after the conclusion of Final Crisis, and would seem to suggest that on that occasion a red sky was simply a red sky.

Red also has a significance (or at least a significant lack of significance) in the red and black pattern the Joker is making throughout the story. The red skies also serve as visual references to this.



How exactly did the Joker talk with his tounge sliced in half?

In Batman #680 the Joker reveals that he knows Doctor Hurt's true identity by mutilating himself to display a serpent's tongue. It has troubled many readers that he appears capable of comprehensible speech after doing so.

It is however entirely possible that the Joker wasn't capable of comprehensible speech before doing so, and the tongue slicing merely serves to make this explicit.

The Joker was shot in the face in Batman #655 and, when he reappeared in #663 had undergone facial reconstruction surgery leaving him incapable of producing any sounds except "a subhuman paste of of slobbery vowels and clicking consonants." The prose story in that issue makes it very clear that, while the Joker thinks he's talking, all that's coming out is "mangled phonetics and toxic intent."

When this version of the Joker reappears in DCU#0, Tony Daniel draws him with retracted lips which would be unable to manufacture any rounded vowels or labial/labio-dental consonants. Daniel is careful never to actually show him speaking.

It seems very likely that the Joker we see in RIP is talking in the same "subhuman paste" and that his speech balloons (coloured green to distinguish them from conventional dialogue) contain the words he's trying to say rather than the actual noises coming out of his mouth.

Careful reading of the arc shows that nobody, from the Arkham psychiatrist, to the Club of Villains to the members of the Black Glove, show any sign of understanding him before or after the tongue-slicing. They respond only to the fact that he has spoken or to actions that he's taken rather than to the content of anything that he has said. There's no evidence that any characters with whom he converses in Batman RIP can makes heads or tails of what he's saying.

There's one exception to this.

The Batman of Zur-En-Arrh has an extended and two-sided conversation with the Joker, and is able to fully understand him both before and after the tongue-slicing.

But then, the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh also has two-sided conversations with gargoyles.

Batman typically works by gathering evidence and consciously interpreting it. In RIP we're shown that as the Batman of Zur-En-Arrh this process is unconscious. Whereas normally he'd read the city and deduce what the clues were telling him, in this state of mind he experiences this as direct linguistic information; "Shh! The city's talking" (Batman #679).

It follows then that he'd also be the only one able to converse with the Joker. Just as he interpreted the city's clues and experienced them as talking gargoyles, he'd be able to read the Joker's body language, intent and phonetics and experience them as actual speech.

It's also worth looking at what the conversation is about. The Joker is insisting that all life is fundamentally meaningless and that all attempts to make sense of it are doomed. And the World's Greatest Detective is making a liar of him...just by the simple act of understanding it.

[Pinderpanda 600]

L_LawIiet

Wow, that guide was awesome. The thing that interests me the most though, is Simone/Bendis flamewars? I read the thread where said she thought Peter's gay and Bendis was all "Wtf? R u running out of ways to sell your book?" + the one where she said that she felt like Marvel had a bit of a boys club feeling, and Bendis said that's bullshit she owed Marvel an apology, but did any other flamewars happen?

I think they've crossed swords a couple of other times but, if I remember right the Final Crisis slam was a weirdly random aside during the 'Boys Club' incident. Bendis later praised FC at a panel by saying that it might eventually turn out to be as good as The Filth. Hmm.

EDIT: I remember wrong. It was a seperate thing in which Bendis reacted to Morrison's attack on Secret Invasion by saying, "same s**t gail does all the time. they must teach a class in it over there", Simone protested about having been dragged into things, and Bendis lashed out at her.

Public creator-feuds are a great way to meet the emotional needs of fans. Kyle Baker should have one.

[Pinderpanda 600]

Who (and why) was the Black Glove?

At San Deigo 2008 Grant Morrison said that the Black Glove's true identity would be someone "everybody in the world knows." Curiously, when the identity was eventually revealed, much of the readership failed to recognise him.

Lets go back to when Morrison first took on the Batman monthly and he mentioned that he'd "rather Batman embodied the best that secular humanism has to offer" (Newsarama, 2006). This take on the character has proved vital to how Morrison has written Batman throughout his career and is crucial to understanding why the Black Glove is who he is.

By 'Humanism' here, we're talking about the whole raft of philosophical ideas that came out of the Enlightenment and told us that it was possible for us to stop thinking of life as one long downhill ride from the Fall or the 'Golden Age' and to start thinking that humans had a chance to improve the world and themselves if they started playing smart and making the effort.

Where Batman comes in is that humanism does this through reason, rationality, science and all that sort of stuff, to the exclusion of all the irrational mumbo-jumbo that's also a part of being human. Arkham Asylum, by a younger and angier Grant Morrison, punishes Batman for his humanism by painting him as a repressed, joyless prig and having him suffer humilation and agony for his failure to integrate into himself myth, ritual, chaos, the Id, and all the other things reason excludes.

By the time of Morrison's JLA run things are very different. Here Batman is routinely defeating gods and ur-gods by holding to these values.

Inbetween we get Batman: Gothic, where reason and rationality are shown to be effective but limited. Batman solves the mystery, but an epilogue reveals that he's been blind to a major player in the events....the Devil himself! Humanism works here, but remains oblivious to the man behind the curtain.

The Devil next reappears in Morrison's Batman mythos during RIP, where he's wearing Mangrove Pierce's body and using the name 'The Black Glove'.

Batman is invested in a project which attempts to improve humanity through reason and rationality. There's no greater threat to that than the possibility that deep down inside humanity is a kind of irrational evil from which it can never escape.

The Devil's the ultimate supernatural bogeyman. There's no greater threat to it than the possibility that people might one day be able to work and think their way free. If that's true then the Devil's days are numbered.

The Joker is well aware of who the Black Glove is, making numerological references to the Devil, quoting the Rolling Stones and illustrating the point by fashioning himself a serpent's tougue. He also claims to know why the Devil hates Batman (#680) and it has to be because of this; the possibilities for humanity that Batman's values and achievements represent scare the Devil (#681).

Batman has to acknowledge though that the Devil is a part of him. Just as humanism tried to exclude from its discourse the irrational side of human experience, Batman tried to fence off the nonsensical aspects of his own life experience inside The Black Casebook; "All the things we'd seen that didn't fit and couldn't be explained went into the Black Casebook" (#665) but when he writes the final entry in the Casebook he faces the posibility that he's reached the limits of reason.

In the various isolation experiments, initiations and Thogal rituals we've seen Batman undertake he's found this 'source of pure evil' deep down inside himself. And as Doctor Hurt breathes, "The Black Glove always wins" it is Batman's own black glove we see smashing through the helicopter window.

Since we're talking about a book set in the shared universe of the DCU we have to mention that this is a world not short of Devils and Devil-analogues... Neron, Satanus, the First of the Fallen, Lucifer and plenty of others could all in different ways be thought of as 'The Devil' in DCU continuity.

I would suggest that it is not helpful in understanding Batman RIP to do so here. What Batman trimuphs against here is the idea of the Devil rather than any specific pre-existing variation on that idea. Although perhaps we should mention Orion's warning from Final Crisis #1 concerning Darkseid and his retinue of evil gods; "They did not die! He is in you all!"


It'd be tempting to give the last word to Damien, who says, "I know the Devil exists, or at least something exists which might as well be the Devil. I've met him." (Batman #666)

The Black Glove is something which might as well be the Devil.

[Pinderpanda 600]

DANGER! DANGER! THIS IS A SPOILER THREAD AND, OVER THE NEXT FEW DAYS, SHOULD BE TREATED AS COMPLETELY RADIOACTIVE BY ANYONE YET TO READ FINAL CRISIS#6