LIIIIIIIIIIIIIEEEEEEEFFFFFFFFEEEEEEEEELLLLLLLLDDDDDDDD!!!!!

[eadie_the_lady]

GLJordan

going by the norm where she came from. seems that way

I don't think that's the norm of where she came from, just the norm for comic books. neutral

[Ms. Selina Kyle]

It's good that all these women have a back story that excuses them looking physically identical minus a trip to the L'Oreal hair salon. Wouldn't want them to have individual physical characteristics after all. That would be totes confusing.

[Grimesby]

The evidence of women just being there for show is in the talk of "strong female characters." People are actually surprised and take note when they see a woman who isn't weak, dependent, and immature. I just recently saw on Comic Vine a series of interviews asking writers how they go about writing a "strong female character." (That sounds difficult. Is it even possible?) Obviously, these writers ought to be commended for their special talent--they can make even girls look tough!

[Ms. Selina Kyle]

I rarely see people surprised at women characters who aren't weak, dependent and immature. I do see people thinking that a "strong woman" is one who is comfortable not wearing pants, an "independent woman" is one who likes to talk about sex in a "no-strings-attached, bro" manner cuz' she don't need no man, and a "mature woman" is a lady who is tough but can still have a vulnerable crying panel to prove she's still human (human ladies = crying).

I also see a lot of writers and artists doing interviews that go like this:

Reporter: "So what drew you to Lady Character?"

Writer: "Well, I've always admired her. Naturally, she's really sexy, but she's more than just a pair of tits. Ha ha."

Artist: "Most people think of Lady Character as being sexy, but we want to show her softer side. Sure she's a hero, but she's also a woman."

No one ever starts an interview, "Well I've always wanted to write Batman. I want to show that he's more than just a pair of well-sculpted pectorals, rippling down into a washboard stomach towards his giant p***s. p***s p***s, sexy pecs p***s. Yes he's a hero, but he's also a man. Wink."

[GLJordan]

eadie_the_lady

GLJordan

going by the norm where she came from. seems that way

I don't think that's the norm of where she came from, just the norm for comic books. neutral

well considering she comes form a comic book rolleyes

Quote:

Thundra is a warrior woman and time traveler from an alternate future 23rd century. In the future society she hails from, planet Earth is now known as Femizonia and is ruled by amazon-like female overlords (Femizons) who have conquered and enslaved the diminished male population. The former United States is now the 'United Sisterhood Republic', and Thundra hails from the megalopolis of Greater Milago (a merged sprawl of Milwaukee and Chicago), located in the United Sisterhood's Midwestern Republic. Thundra is renowned as the United Sisterhood's most formidable warrior, having been physically enhanced by genetic engineering and trained from childhood in combat, the martial arts, and military strategy.

[eadie_the_lady]

Oh gawd and then there's people who try to argue that men are just as objectified as women because they're build like a Michelangelo.

BULL.

First of all, men do not have the type of social pressure that women have when it comes to appearance. Look at teen flicks! If the pretty girl isn't interested in the nerdy guy it's because she's a shallow b***h. But by the end, she'll see that he's awesome, but she lost her chance. But if the nerdy girl wants the popular guy, then she has to have a makeover to get his attention and then he'll see that she's amazing and what he's always wanted...

Secondly, the male characters aren't hulked up to be eye candy for people attracted to men, it's more of a "RAAAAAWR!!! I AM TESTICULES, GOD OF TESTOSTERONE!!!!" It's a power trip! And the ones that aren't huge usually have women falling all over them. Look at Tim Drake! White, scrawny, nerdy, fan-boy with a man-crush on Batman and Robin has actually had girls get into physical altercations over him. Oh yeah, that's not wish fulfillment at all...

Sure there's actually jokes about d**k Grayson's butt within the comics, but here we're talking about a character with a 70 year history who's had several books, led the teen titans, and just got off of an extremely successful run as Batman. d**k has NEVER sat in the background and looked cute.

[eadie_the_lady]

GLJordan

eadie_the_lady

GLJordan

going by the norm where she came from. seems that way

I don't think that's the norm of where she came from, just the norm for comic books. neutral

well considering she comes form a comic book rolleyes

Quote:

Thundra is a warrior woman and time traveler from an alternate future 23rd century. In the future society she hails from, planet Earth is now known as Femizonia and is ruled by amazon-like female overlords (Femizons) who have conquered and enslaved the diminished male population. The former United States is now the 'United Sisterhood Republic', and Thundra hails from the megalopolis of Greater Milago (a merged sprawl of Milwaukee and Chicago), located in the United Sisterhood's Midwestern Republic. Thundra is renowned as the United Sisterhood's most formidable warrior, having been physically enhanced by genetic engineering and trained from childhood in combat, the martial arts, and military strategy.

Good job completely missing the point. We have been sitting here talking about how female characters in comics are templates of each other. It would be nice to see a muscular woman who didn't have to prove her femininity with ginormo-boobs. Heck, it would be nice to see women with ANY other type of body in general. They actually rebooted Amanda Waller into a skinny b***h. What. The. Hell. Was that really necessary. Really?

And "Amazon" tropes really do make me sick. They're usually just excuses to have hot lesbian action or to show "powerful women" forcing the men to submit like the naughty, naughty boys they are.

[GLJordan]

my point was that if Gamma rays was a good enough reason to have said figure I don't see why genetic engineering wasn't. the fact that you want to go off on another topic isn't my problem. Not a fan of the new slimmer waller either. rolleyes

[Miss-dark8607]

This whole relaunch stuff is one big circle jerk and a boys club at that. I knew nothing shocking was going to happen. I cut half my titles at the end of dec.

[Ms. Selina Kyle]

eadie_the_lady

Good job completely missing the point. We have been sitting here talking about how female characters in comics are templates of each other. It would be nice to see a muscular woman who didn't have to prove her femininity with ginormo-boobs.

Let's back those horses up, Cesar. That's not what I've been arguing.

Quote:

Heck, it would be nice to see women with ANY other type of body in general.

Yeah, that's closer.

There is a big difference between "proving your femininity" and showing some variety and subsequent visual equality in comics. Femininity is a social construction that lets us know that Women are the Right Kind of Women. To declare a woman "unfeminine" is to declare her not really a woman because of the way she presents herself and/or the activities she performs. The closest parallel I can immediately think of would be the amount of time women in comics spend proving to the audience that even though they're Tough and Powerful (masculine), they also have a Sensitive (feminine), Troubled Back Story to explain why they're not at home baking cookies and having babies.
The cheapest (and therefore infuriatingly common) way to do this is to have a her raped or suffer some sexual trauma. It's the Worst Thing You Can Do to a Woman (we don't get to be orphans like all the men). Women are not able to just decide to be heroes like the Flash (also now an orphan, but the motivation for doing this to men is different though equally stupid), they need a really powerful reason to abandon their femininity and take up a traditionally masculine role.
They are subsequently written as "One of the bros," which is fine. Except again, most of them are done this way. And frustratingly, it means that she will "prove her femininity" so the readers remember, "ah ha! I forgot this scantily clad character was still a woman, good thing she just cried and made a joke about giving birth."

You know how many times Batman has cried about having a dislocated shoulder? Never, But, you know, it really really hurts if it happens to a lady and gosh, squeeze out a few tears to make sure everyone knows it.

Characters in comics don't have enormous boobs so we know they're dainty ladies, they have enormous boobs because they've been created for sexual display to titillate the reader. They're not women, they're blow up dolls. Their purpose isn't to provide key story elements, to lead a title, or to provide a character to identify with. It's not about femininity, it's about objectification.

Quote:

They actually rebooted Amanda Waller into a skinny b***h. What. The. Hell. Was that really necessary. Really?

This is a good example. We don't see Waller much in the comic, she's just the voice at the other end of the intercom. But when we do, the artist has made sure that you know she's sexy. Why is she sexy? She's got the Stock Comic Book Body and really shiny lips.

Could she have been sexy if she were still The Wall? Sure. But why does she need to be sexy? Isn't that role overflowingly filled by every other woman character at the company?

GLJordan

my point was that if Gamma rays was a good enough reason to have said figure I don't see why genetic engineering wasn't.

These are paper excuses. The reason there's one stock female body in comics is because for most artists, it's the only one they want to draw. It's fast, it's easy, it only has two or three poses.

They want to draw kicks that's look like this (hint, kicks don't look like that), so all the women have to look like this.

Or, to put it another way: why would genetic engineering and exposure to the massive amount of gamma rays result in the same body (+/- body paint)?

I suppose eating all that cheese in the Neo-Milwaukee suburb of Greater Milago give you strong healthy bones...(this is an awesome back story, and I say that as someone who hates that kind of back story).

[eadie_the_lady]

Ms. Selina Kyle

Sorry I didn't explain myself very well, I was tired when I posted that.

What I meant was that there is such a push for sexuality in the female characters in comics that even when the ladies are essentially built like men, they still have to have enormous breasts as if to say "Hey look! It's a woman! She has boobies! Great big boobies!" Because here with Valkyrie we have a character who is, quote-unquote, masculine because of her position in her society and how her world is set up. So in this case she's defined as a woman by her curves because we all know that all women are actually good for, right? rolleyes

So essentially I agree with you, I'm just not as articulate about it.

Pretty much what Maki was talking about how it's great that yes, these characters are drawn solid, but do they really need enormous breast? I said there was nothing wrong with busty ladies, but we both agreed that it would be nice to have different body types.

[Ms. Selina Kyle]

Fair enough.

I just want to make sure that we're delineating between the two. "What makes a woman character feminine" in comics is different from "what makes a woman character a sexual object."

The things in comics that code for "feminine women characters" are generally to do with the writing and, more often their civilian outfits (skirts vs. pants, pastels vs. primary colors) and civilian activities (shopping vs. having a beer, talking about boys vs. any other conversation, crying vs. brooding). "Femininity" is a series of constructed behaviors and mannerisms.

The things in comics that make women "sexual objects" have to do with their presentation to the reader. A woman character's sexual appearance trumps all other aspects of her character. She doesn't have friends (because she's only for looking, who cares if she has friends), she doesn't have conversations that don't somehow pertain to sex (because she's there for sex so she doesn't need to talk about anything else), she doesn't doesn't have a whole shirt (because her tits are the important part) and them knockers better be big (they're really important).

The two issues do get tangled up together frequently. When writers want to take a character who is typically portrayed as the "Lady-bro in the house, check out my giant tits WOO!" girl, they usually break her down and make her prove she's still "feminine." So her character sheet ends up looking like: "tits tits tits tits tits, lady things, crying, shopping, dresses, tits."

[Preston886]

What's so bad about this guy:


Yes that's Rob Liefeld and myself at NYCC2011.

Everyone rants about his work from the 90s, but nobody considers the characters he's given us. Young Blood, Deadpool, etc.

He's even admitted to his crap artwork from the past and he has improved it. Despite inconsistencies in certain panels, I actually like his art. He came around a time when artists like Jim Lee, Todd McFarlane, etc were making it big with dark edgy artwork. That was the style of the early 90s.

[Ms. Selina Kyle]

Oh right. He's famous, prolific and derivative. Well, problem solved. Nothing wrong with the industry.

[eadie_the_lady]

Preston886

What's so bad about this guy:


Yes that's Rob Liefeld and myself at NYCC2011.

Everyone rants about his work from the 90s, but nobody considers the characters he's given us. Young Blood, Deadpool, etc.

He's even admitted to his crap artwork from the past and he has improved it. Despite inconsistencies in certain panels, I actually like his art. He came around a time when artists like Jim Lee, Todd McFarlane, etc were making it big with dark edgy artwork. That was the style of the early 90s.

The problem is that he hasn't evolved. The problem is that he tanked one book and was given three more. The problem is the silly club that is set up in the comic industry that doesn't allow a flow of new ideas and points of view which is essentially choking the medium.

According to the survey they sent out, all the DC relaunch achieved was to get guys who were already buying comics to buy more comics (most likely for collecting). They're not tapping into two key potential audiences: children (which doesn't make any sense at all) and teen girls.

There are a handful of children's comics out there, but to get them the kid would have to first already know they exist, and second be able to convince their parents to take them to the book store or LCS to get them. I hate that comics are no longer offered in grocery stores. It drives me up the freaking wall because I'm from a small town where there is neither an LCS or a book store large enough to carry comics. I think for kid's comics they would benefit greatly from setting up an anthology like Shounen JUMP that could be sold on magazine racks in grocery stores or mega-stores like WalMart and Target.

With girls comics, once again they're out there, but they're not marketed to new potential readers. Why not put some adverts into magazines like Seventeen or CosmoGirl? Example: When I was little, I loved Spiderman. I use to watch the show all the time. When I got a little older and sort of grew out of the cartoons, if I would have known there was a Spidergirl, I still would have lost my s**t. Because even though I definitely was not a total girly-girl at 13, I still liked to pick up girl's magazines and read girly things now and again. That's why I stopped reading the few comics I could steal from my brother and started reading manga instead. I didn't know there were American comics that would appeal to me as a girl. But I digress.

Also, to each their own, I won't tell you what to like, but, there's nothing "past" about Liefeld's crap artwork. Speaking from a technical standpoint, it's just poorly drawn. The proportions are off. There's no sense of weight to anything. The backgrounds are lazy. And the fact that he's been doing this professionally for so long and has improved so little tells me that he has no drive to actually evolve and as an artist myself I find that personally insulting. It insinuates that he has no pride in his craft and no respect for his audience.

EDIT: By the way, nice Taskmaster cosplay. *thumbs up*