Pinderpanda 600
What's this thread for?
Discussing each week's DCU titles with a view towards...
- Working out what's going on (and what's coming up) in the Big Events
- Trying to work out what's changed in post Infinite Crisis continuity.
- Providing a 'scratchpad' where people can dash down thier thoughts about a particular issue, story or title if they don't feel like starting a whole thread just to say, "Bugger me! Supergirl #11 was atrocious!"
- Having a laugh. The atmosphere here is less 'seminar group' and more 'book club'. Off-topic chatter is encouraged, since it's impossible to derail a thread that has fresh meat thrown to it each Wednesday. You're never more than a couple of pages away from some actual content.
Is that what the thread's always been for?
Not quite. It was born in the interval between Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis as an attempt to compile various theories, mostly those of Marty Nozz, from other threads as to how those events linked up. The original first post from those days is preserved below for historical curiosity.
Its current functions are those it's evolved into.
What's this thread NOT for?
Deterring people from starting thier own threads on any DC events, comics or storylines they want to discuss in a more focused way.
What's the Spoiler Policy?
Any twists, revelations or surprises should be whited or yellowed out from the Wednesday of publication through to the Sunday of that week. After that anything's fair game and the thread should be considered 'read at your own risk'.
Didn't this thread used to be called...?
Probably. The thread's title shifts because I think I'm [********] in order to reflect the constantly uncertain nature of reality within the DC universe.
Previous titles have included...
Crisis Conspiracy Complilation.
Crisis Conspiracies Continue.
Crisis Conundrums Complicate.
Crisis Continuities Convolute.
Crisis Catalogue Canonised. (The week we went OFFICIAL)
Crisis Chronicles Considered.
Complete Crisis Commentary
Crisis Critique Capsules
Crisis Code-cracking
Crisis Christmas Cheer
Convivial Crisis Conversation
Crisis Character Confirmed (The week of the Supernova reveal)
Collaborative Crisis Crib-sheet
Ceaseless Crisis Consecution
Crisis Countdown Concern
Catch-All Crisis Catholicon
Crunchy Crocodile Crisis (The week of the Sobek reveal)
Clashing Continents Crisis (It's WWIII out there!)
Carol's Crisis Clock (A Countdown joke for the sole amusement of the UK posters)
...and others I've forgotten. redface
What's 'Act III'?
NRAMA: Things are still moving forward - there are threads left from Crisis, there are elements in 52 that extend beyond the scope of that particular series, there are Monitors around…looking at the larger story in a three act structure, where would you say we are now?
DD: We're about to enter Act Three
Not that anyone would pretend this was planned this way, but lets look at how its evolved to try and work out where it's going...
Act One.
I suppose this was InfiniCrisis, and the countdown thereto. Actually, it makes more sense to think of Act One as everything since Graduation Day. That was the point that Didio says his 'vision' for the line first gots implemented. It seems a big chunk, I know, but I think everything from there on, especially Idenity Crisis, until the end of InfiniCrisis should be considered Act One. This was DidioDC with Meltzer, Johns, Rucka and Winnick dominant and before Waid and Morrison had returned to the Big Table. I do not think history shall judge it kindly.
Act Two.
This is fairly clear - 52 and OYL. 52 has, despite its storytelling being sabotaged by its gimmick and some very ropey art been a huge success commercially, and from my perspective would have to do something Really Stupid at this stage not to be judged a huge creative success too. OYL's been a mixed bag - some creative teams haven't embraced it, some tried to cheat it and some weren't up to it. But on the books where it's worked, like Teen Titans and the Superman titles, it's really worked.
Act Three.
So what do we know?
Monitors are everywhere.
The Multiverse is back.
Loose-lipped creators have accidentally confirmed that all the New Gods sightings are building to an event.
A teaser image has been released containing both New Gods and Multiversal characters.
DC have a number of projects under development refered to internally by secret codenames.
Dini is rumoured to be working on a weekly series called 'Countdown.'
When Morrison and Waid fell out with the last DC regime and ran off arm-in-arm to Marvel, they had to abandon an event they'd been dreaming up called Hypercrisis.
One of the 52 boys (Waid, I think), in the early days of that series said they were enoying writing together so much they were already talking casually about 'the band' doing 'a second album'.
Loeb's SuperBat run ends with an incongruous tease of a future connection between the Fourth World and the Fifth Dimension.
There's an Enormous Flash-related gaping plot hole requiring mending.
I think this is the big one... In JSoA#2 Starman says he's arrived "before the Great Disaster".
'The Great Disaster' is a phrase often used in Kirby's post-appoclyptic series Kamandi and the series that share a micro-continuity with it - Hercules Unbound and The Atomic Knights. Hercules, in a variant of his Unbound costume has shown up recently in Wonder Woman and the Atomic Knights have shown up in Battle for Bludhaven.... which ended with the reveal of a bunker named Command D.
The series also established that Captain Atom (a CA that just comes from facing The Authority of all things) is now wearing the Monarch outfit.
I wonder how much a villain (or hero) will Monarch be this time... his speech of "all universes deserve to live" is clearly reminiscent of Hank-Monarch ideology back in Zero Hour when he and Parallax were out to make an universe for everyone.
There's also all the doomsday talk Arion's been giving Clark in Superman, despite its scale, it seems quite self-contained,but I do think it makes easy set-up conceptually for anything else they want to pull.
Didio mentioned that Giffen was planing a multiverse crossover.
PP
WW
KMKM
TB
NOTE: Please, for the love of all you hold dear, don't quote the whole of this Very Long first post in your replies.
This thread is nothing if not a testament to the existence and power of Cut-and-Paste.
Was it not the psychoanalytic theorist Jacques Lacan who said that paranoia is the foundation on which the ego is constructed, and the human search for knowledge is entirely conducted along paranoiac lines?
Certainly the human search for knowledge of what's going on chez DCU lately has been gloriously paranoid, and when Marty Nozz said...
...I thought it was time to put together our thoughts from a half-dozen threads in one place. If I were a mod I'd do this by merging threads, but then if I was a mod I'd abuse my powers and pick up young teens in the Chatterbox, so lets not dwell on what could have been and instead get on with...
The Crisis Conspiracy Compliation.
***Spoilers Abound***
Things really started getting interesting when Marty Nozz dropped this bombshell...
This is the point where everyone, regardless of how much they agreed with it, realised that they had to be paying more attention.
Tad said it best...
And still Marty had more...
The thing that's picking at the edges of my brain about Rann/Thanagar is the timing. Something breaks loose on the other side of the galaxy that's going to pull some of the heavy hitters away now? No way. This was planned, but I'm not sure how. I'm looking at the villians involved in Identity Crisis and now in Countdown. Who does Calculator or Luthor have under them that could get to Rann or Thanagar and set this in motion? I may have to go back and grab up some Adam Strange comics. The answer isn't in Hawkman, so I think it must be there.
Oh, and don't go thinking for a second that sending Captain Boomerang was just an accident either. Boomerang's death really set off the Rogue War. Yes, it had been brewing for a while, but now we have it going full steam.
Why set this off? Because Wally needs to be kept busy. He's a member of the JLA and has close ties to the Teen Titans and Outsiders. Everyone knows and trusts Wally, and he can be almost everywhere at once. If Wally gets a clue as to what's going on, Luthor is screwed. Same goes with Oracle, but I think Calculator has her Buffaloed for now.
If Boomerang wasn't killed, he still would have gone to the Rogues to save his a**. Wally would still be get busy. Win/win for Luthor. Boomerang was expendable, especially with his son now in the game. Oooo. and look who arranged and encouraged the father/son reunion.
Keep an eye on Outsiders. Deathstroke let Arsenal live for a reason. Wilson wants payback on Green Arrow and greasing Roy would be sweet. There's something up.
Max Mercury had more evidence and some wrinkles of his own...
Though it would add relevance to the conversation about Adam's floating that for some reason is in Countdown.
I then rather unhelpfuly, derailed that thread a bit with a debate about whether or not, if this stuff turned out to be true, it had been planned at the time of Identity Crisis or cooked up after-the-fact behind closed doors.
I went on about this interview quite a bit, which is either very telling or the most astonishing pack of lies ever concocted:
http://www.newsarama.com/DC/Identity_Crisis/IdentityCrisisRevisit.htm
hvilli got us back on track though with more attentive reading:
The only doubt in my mind about the end of IC is what Hal said to Ollie: "Make THEM pay ollie, make them pay". He migth be talking about several persons behind the death of Sue
Gamma Charge, who comes to play the voice of sober restraint in all these threads points out a possible probelm with Jean having been framed:
The first pages of Day of Vengenance would contradict this. Sorry.
Jean Loring is the new Eclipso. If Eclipso was what was pushing her into insanity then it is not her fault anymore. This makes her sudden descent into madness more plausible.
But Marty didn't see this as a problem:
That actually works with my theory. Eclipso exists as a person contained in the Black Diamond. Frame Jean, drive her mad and them have Black Adam give Jean the diamond now that her mind is more suseptable to the Eclipso persona. Why do this? Keep Ray busy. Emotionally conflict the good guys and make them less effectual. Tie up a loose end. Keep heat off of Luthor. We know Luthor is involved, this gives him another "big gun".
Now, if Jean was given the Diamond before IC, Luthor could have instructed Eclipso to make Jean kill Sue in the manner she did. This Makes Jean the "trigger-man" but still doesn't coutradist my theory.
So, inspired by all this speculating about the origin of the crisis, i started off on some speculating about the aftermath and the nature of the crisis.
Thanks for running through the detail...and for what it's worth I'm with you on Superman/Batman being important - I think Loeb's stuff is all turning out to be significant to the GiantEpicEverythingPlot - and with you on The Outsiders: That's where I see Bats ending up once the current JLA disband.
Then, once again, the voice of sober restraint appeared to stop me seeing conspiracies behind every publishing choice :
Originally they went for JLA:C because Busiek WAS going to be the regular writer. He isn't going to be the regular writer because he has some health issues that made him back out a couple of months ago after his arc had started. He said with his current state of health, combined with the amount of work needed for a JLA title considering all the coordination involved with the rest of the DCU editors/writers he couldn't handle the workload. He said he DOES have some ideas for the JLA he would like to work out and will return at a later date.
Gamma Charge was also around when I posted this...
I think I've figured out why Shazam broke the habit of a lifetime and communicated with Ted.
See if you can get there... What does Blue Beetle have in common with the Marvel family? That would be relevant in a sequal to Crisis on Infinite Earths?
...though here she didn't guess my theory, but instead a more likely one. sad
The magical scarab. Notice how Shazam sent away Ted and took the scarab. Also, they allude to Days of Vengeance when he shows a vision to Ted. The scarab is probably going to play a part in DoV. Willingham also noted that each issue of DoV would focus on a member of the team of second stringers taking on the Spectre. Only 5 members have been named IIRC but there are 6 issues. Whoever takes on the mantle of the Blue Beetle will probably use the magical scarab like the original and be a part of the DoV crew.
Beatiful Nemuro however sussed out what I was getting at, and I expounded my crazy notions further...
Okay...neither Blue Beetle nor the Marvel family were originaly DC characters.
Both belonged to other companies, and other universes, that were eventually bought by DC. Much like the Wildstorm universe got bought a while back.
Now, just like DC are doing with Wildstorm, they ran them for a while as separate universes within a multiverse, but then, during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, thier worlds were merged with Earth-1 and Earth-2 to create the modern DCU.
A place which both the little blue bug and the big red cheese don't really belong, although they're not aware of that.
Rumours and leaks last year, before DC even confirmed that there was a new Crisis on the way, suggested that things were going to go horribly wrong when someone realised that something was wrong with the universe based on how dark things got in Identity Crisis and tried to get thier old universe back...
Max filled in the blanks...
I've been waiting for the Scarab to be used for
something SINCE Crisis on Infinite Earths,
where it was not particularly useful against
shadow demons.
It needs a recharge of some kind.
========
In answer to the "other companies" thing,
let's see...
the Marvel Family and the "Shazam Squadron of
Justice" were from Fawcett comics.
Other than the 3 main Marvels,
and Ibis the Invincible,
the others seem gone for good.
A shame, really-the names
"Mr Scarlet and Pinky the whiz kid" were always good
for a laugh.
The L.A.W. (Living Assault Weapons) team was all
the Charleston Comics characters-
Blue Beetle
Captain Atom
Peacemaker
Judomaster
Nightshade
All of them have been used in recent years, but
Nightshade barely so. Since the Charleston crew
partly came over with their characters, that makes
some sense. d**k Giordano, IIRC, drew some of them,
and he became DC Managing Editor at one time.
The Freedom Fighters must have come over also,
but I don't know who published them.
That's with Uncle Sam, the Ray, the Human Bomb,
Phantom Lady, Doll Man, the Red Bee.
I forget if !mpact was another DC line-if so,
they ran with a series of characters from the
Golden Age as well.
Seems that's what they did with Milestone, as well.
Marvel's only had limited success in this regard,
like the Ultraverse buyout.
Which caught Virgil's imagination enough to make another link...
Hmm... Ibis the Invincible is from another company too?
Maybe it's not related, but... Ibis the Invincible bites it in Zatanna #1 and I loved pinder's theory about Seven Soldiers and the JLA. Beetle senses something's wrong with the universe, Shazam does as well and so does Ibis (and the others... who were the others, had they shown up anywhere before?) If there indeed is a tie between Seven Soldiers, Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis, maybe that's it?
And caught the attention of the King of Conspiracies...
Have you seen the end of Teen Titans #20?
Luthor tells the Calculator, "You may be plugged in...but so am I. and you know what I mean by that. My partner--"
At the time he's looking at a display of 'Superboys through the ages' (One of which I'm not sure is part of the DCU right now)
Another big clue that there's a 'multiversal' element to the new Crisis is what's been going on with Power Girl, the hints in this month's solicitations that it's important for the crisis and the fact that her situation is brought up in Countdown.
Basicly her Post-crisis origins have been dubunked. So where's she really from? Doesn't look like from universe they think she is.
The Return of Donna Troy looks like it may play with these ideas too.
As for Powergirl, I'd expect something to be made of it, I mean look at what Supes said. Also does anyone have information on Powergirl, I mean including Checkmate, and Maxwell Lord?
It's also going to include the Thanagarians, and Rann somehow. So this is really bigger than they made it out to be in some ways.
You're really on to something there.
If they know all there is to be known about the heroes...the only gap in thier knowledge/power is in the pre-Crisis facts that can't be known...like the other universes where Power Girl, Blue Beetle, Shazam, and...for that matter, OMAC, came from.
Since writing that JSA #72 has shown us that we're spot on about Power Girl's importance. What else we're right about we'll find out as the months go by.
As we do, I propose we keep this thread open as a place for posting and discussing all our theories and also for editing into the main post any sparks of wisdom that show up on other threads.
Discussing each week's DCU titles with a view towards...
- Working out what's going on (and what's coming up) in the Big Events
- Trying to work out what's changed in post Infinite Crisis continuity.
- Providing a 'scratchpad' where people can dash down thier thoughts about a particular issue, story or title if they don't feel like starting a whole thread just to say, "Bugger me! Supergirl #11 was atrocious!"
- Having a laugh. The atmosphere here is less 'seminar group' and more 'book club'. Off-topic chatter is encouraged, since it's impossible to derail a thread that has fresh meat thrown to it each Wednesday. You're never more than a couple of pages away from some actual content.
Is that what the thread's always been for?
Not quite. It was born in the interval between Identity Crisis and Infinite Crisis as an attempt to compile various theories, mostly those of Marty Nozz, from other threads as to how those events linked up. The original first post from those days is preserved below for historical curiosity.
Its current functions are those it's evolved into.
What's this thread NOT for?
Deterring people from starting thier own threads on any DC events, comics or storylines they want to discuss in a more focused way.
What's the Spoiler Policy?
Any twists, revelations or surprises should be whited or yellowed out from the Wednesday of publication through to the Sunday of that week. After that anything's fair game and the thread should be considered 'read at your own risk'.
Didn't this thread used to be called...?
Probably. The thread's title shifts because I think I'm [********] in order to reflect the constantly uncertain nature of reality within the DC universe.
Previous titles have included...
Crisis Conspiracy Complilation.
Crisis Conspiracies Continue.
Crisis Conundrums Complicate.
Crisis Continuities Convolute.
Crisis Catalogue Canonised. (The week we went OFFICIAL)
Crisis Chronicles Considered.
Complete Crisis Commentary
Crisis Critique Capsules
Crisis Code-cracking
Crisis Christmas Cheer
Convivial Crisis Conversation
Crisis Character Confirmed (The week of the Supernova reveal)
Collaborative Crisis Crib-sheet
Ceaseless Crisis Consecution
Crisis Countdown Concern
Catch-All Crisis Catholicon
Crunchy Crocodile Crisis (The week of the Sobek reveal)
Clashing Continents Crisis (It's WWIII out there!)
Carol's Crisis Clock (A Countdown joke for the sole amusement of the UK posters)
...and others I've forgotten. redface
What's 'Act III'?
An End of Year Interview with Didio
NRAMA: Things are still moving forward - there are threads left from Crisis, there are elements in 52 that extend beyond the scope of that particular series, there are Monitors around…looking at the larger story in a three act structure, where would you say we are now?
DD: We're about to enter Act Three
Not that anyone would pretend this was planned this way, but lets look at how its evolved to try and work out where it's going...
Act One.
I suppose this was InfiniCrisis, and the countdown thereto. Actually, it makes more sense to think of Act One as everything since Graduation Day. That was the point that Didio says his 'vision' for the line first gots implemented. It seems a big chunk, I know, but I think everything from there on, especially Idenity Crisis, until the end of InfiniCrisis should be considered Act One. This was DidioDC with Meltzer, Johns, Rucka and Winnick dominant and before Waid and Morrison had returned to the Big Table. I do not think history shall judge it kindly.
Act Two.
This is fairly clear - 52 and OYL. 52 has, despite its storytelling being sabotaged by its gimmick and some very ropey art been a huge success commercially, and from my perspective would have to do something Really Stupid at this stage not to be judged a huge creative success too. OYL's been a mixed bag - some creative teams haven't embraced it, some tried to cheat it and some weren't up to it. But on the books where it's worked, like Teen Titans and the Superman titles, it's really worked.
Act Three.
So what do we know?
Monitors are everywhere.
The Multiverse is back.
Loose-lipped creators have accidentally confirmed that all the New Gods sightings are building to an event.
A teaser image has been released containing both New Gods and Multiversal characters.
DC have a number of projects under development refered to internally by secret codenames.
Dini is rumoured to be working on a weekly series called 'Countdown.'
When Morrison and Waid fell out with the last DC regime and ran off arm-in-arm to Marvel, they had to abandon an event they'd been dreaming up called Hypercrisis.
One of the 52 boys (Waid, I think), in the early days of that series said they were enoying writing together so much they were already talking casually about 'the band' doing 'a second album'.
Loeb's SuperBat run ends with an incongruous tease of a future connection between the Fourth World and the Fifth Dimension.
There's an Enormous Flash-related gaping plot hole requiring mending.
I think this is the big one... In JSoA#2 Starman says he's arrived "before the Great Disaster".
'The Great Disaster' is a phrase often used in Kirby's post-appoclyptic series Kamandi and the series that share a micro-continuity with it - Hercules Unbound and The Atomic Knights. Hercules, in a variant of his Unbound costume has shown up recently in Wonder Woman and the Atomic Knights have shown up in Battle for Bludhaven.... which ended with the reveal of a bunker named Command D.
The series also established that Captain Atom (a CA that just comes from facing The Authority of all things) is now wearing the Monarch outfit.
I wonder how much a villain (or hero) will Monarch be this time... his speech of "all universes deserve to live" is clearly reminiscent of Hank-Monarch ideology back in Zero Hour when he and Parallax were out to make an universe for everyone.
There's also all the doomsday talk Arion's been giving Clark in Superman, despite its scale, it seems quite self-contained,but I do think it makes easy set-up conceptually for anything else they want to pull.
Didio mentioned that Giffen was planing a multiverse crossover.
PP
WW
KMKM
TB
The original mission statement
NOTE: Please, for the love of all you hold dear, don't quote the whole of this Very Long first post in your replies.
This thread is nothing if not a testament to the existence and power of Cut-and-Paste.
Was it not the psychoanalytic theorist Jacques Lacan who said that paranoia is the foundation on which the ego is constructed, and the human search for knowledge is entirely conducted along paranoiac lines?
Certainly the human search for knowledge of what's going on chez DCU lately has been gloriously paranoid, and when Marty Nozz said...
Marty Nozz
We're going to end up starting an Infinite Crisis Conspiracy Theory thread, I just know it.
...I thought it was time to put together our thoughts from a half-dozen threads in one place. If I were a mod I'd do this by merging threads, but then if I was a mod I'd abuse my powers and pick up young teens in the Chatterbox, so lets not dwell on what could have been and instead get on with...
The Crisis Conspiracy Compliation.
***Spoilers Abound***
Things really started getting interesting when Marty Nozz dropped this bombshell...
Marty Nozz
After reading Countdown and checking back over Identity Crisis I have formed a theory:
Lex Luthor framed Jean Loring.
And no I'm not joking. Please feel free to blow holes in my theory.
But wait, Jean confessed! And the sick thing is that she probably believes she did it too.
Let's look at the players involved. Luthor as Doctor Psycho working with him, and I have a feeling that he's responcible for Max Lord being in charge of Checkmate. Checkmate is a government operation and who ran the government for four years? It's thin, but it's just a hunch.
Do I think Jean killed Sue? No. I think she was targeted by Luthor for having access to the Atom's equipment and the fact that she was going to divorse Ray was good timing. Max or Psycho could have made her give up the Atom's costume. Then Luthor sent someone in to kill Sue, because why in the hell would she bring a weapon and why a weapon to make it look like Doctor Light?
The attempt on Sue was either the red herring that was explained or possibly an botched attempt to tie up a loose end.
Sue did not contact Calculator to send Boomerang after Jack Drake. Calculator plays the "pronoun game" when talking about whoever called in the hit. Most likely suspect, Luthor, and Calculator was covering.
Needing someone to take the fall, Luthor sends in Psycho to set up Jean.
I've given the means and now the motives, and here's where it gets really good.
By product of using Jean: who is now currently out of action? Ray. And that's bad, but it gets worse.
Why target Sue and make it look like Doctor Light? How many of the major players in the hero community did this touch? Most of them. That is one hell of a diversionary tactic. Luthor just bought himself "prep time". Who does this take out of play? Batman wouldn't listen to Ted. What really good detective would listen to Ted? Ralph. Ted's smart, but he's not a detective, and if he had one to help him in his investigation there's a good chance he'd be alive. Diana and Booster were the only one's who would really listen to Ted. Everyone would listen to Ralph.
Making it look like Doctor Light was the brilliant part. This brought up the incident with Batman. Not only was Doctor Light made a serious threat, but trust between Batman and the League is practically destroyed. Luthor wanted another big gun and he got one. He sent Deathstroke to protect his investment. Does anyone really think Light would have enough money to hire Deathstroke?
Why go after Jack Drake? Let's get into Luthor's head. I've established a M.O. of attacking heroes families, and I need Batman really off his game. Batman has an adoptive son, Nightwing, but I can't go after him because he's working for me and doesn't know it. I'll go after Robin's dad because not only does that affect Batman, but it'll hurt Robin, which I need to make happen for when I make my play for his best friend, Superboy.
Does this mean that Luthor knows everything about the DCU heroes? Yes, he does. I'm pretty sure Luthor's known for a long damn time. How far back? I think be was responcible for the events of Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day.
We know Luthor hired David Cain for the frame. That was not dumb luck. Batman was kept very busy, great distraction. What happened to Sasha? She was recruited by Checkmate. Who was sent to rub out Cain? Dead Shot, who we've seen doing jobs for Calculator and has done work of Luthor. Why not Deathstroke? Good question, Luthor may have not wanted Slade involved to hold onto a trump card for later. Maybe, he hadn't recruited Deathstroke yet.
The Outsiders have been fed info by Luthor through Deathstroke since they formed. There's a double agent in the Outsiders. My first thought was Shift, but I think the phone call between Max Lord and Simon Stagg was a red herring. I thought about Jade for a moment, since she did save Luthor, was not recruited by Arsenal, and did take over leadership. I would not be surprised if she was the traitor, since I've laid out some pretty damning evidence. However, my money is on Indigo. Her appearance was the cause of the formation of the Outsiders. Her actions took out Donna Troy. Most likely, there's a sleeper program inside her. I think Winick watched "Metropolis" (the anime).
So where is all this leading? Good question.
Luthor has Batman halfway turned against the League and building weapons. We all remember Tower of Babel, so we know this is bad.
Ted's dead and Ray and Ralph are out of the picture. Including Batman, that's FOUR of the big brains right there.
Luthor will most likely make use of that Russian mobster with the Sabbac powers and Black Adam when he moves against Captain Marvel.
The only piece that really has me confused is the Rann/Thanagar deal. I don't read Adam Strange, but there may be something there.
I don't know what Luthor's cooking, but this is going to be really bad.
Lex Luthor framed Jean Loring.
And no I'm not joking. Please feel free to blow holes in my theory.
But wait, Jean confessed! And the sick thing is that she probably believes she did it too.
Let's look at the players involved. Luthor as Doctor Psycho working with him, and I have a feeling that he's responcible for Max Lord being in charge of Checkmate. Checkmate is a government operation and who ran the government for four years? It's thin, but it's just a hunch.
Do I think Jean killed Sue? No. I think she was targeted by Luthor for having access to the Atom's equipment and the fact that she was going to divorse Ray was good timing. Max or Psycho could have made her give up the Atom's costume. Then Luthor sent someone in to kill Sue, because why in the hell would she bring a weapon and why a weapon to make it look like Doctor Light?
The attempt on Sue was either the red herring that was explained or possibly an botched attempt to tie up a loose end.
Sue did not contact Calculator to send Boomerang after Jack Drake. Calculator plays the "pronoun game" when talking about whoever called in the hit. Most likely suspect, Luthor, and Calculator was covering.
Needing someone to take the fall, Luthor sends in Psycho to set up Jean.
I've given the means and now the motives, and here's where it gets really good.
By product of using Jean: who is now currently out of action? Ray. And that's bad, but it gets worse.
Why target Sue and make it look like Doctor Light? How many of the major players in the hero community did this touch? Most of them. That is one hell of a diversionary tactic. Luthor just bought himself "prep time". Who does this take out of play? Batman wouldn't listen to Ted. What really good detective would listen to Ted? Ralph. Ted's smart, but he's not a detective, and if he had one to help him in his investigation there's a good chance he'd be alive. Diana and Booster were the only one's who would really listen to Ted. Everyone would listen to Ralph.
Making it look like Doctor Light was the brilliant part. This brought up the incident with Batman. Not only was Doctor Light made a serious threat, but trust between Batman and the League is practically destroyed. Luthor wanted another big gun and he got one. He sent Deathstroke to protect his investment. Does anyone really think Light would have enough money to hire Deathstroke?
Why go after Jack Drake? Let's get into Luthor's head. I've established a M.O. of attacking heroes families, and I need Batman really off his game. Batman has an adoptive son, Nightwing, but I can't go after him because he's working for me and doesn't know it. I'll go after Robin's dad because not only does that affect Batman, but it'll hurt Robin, which I need to make happen for when I make my play for his best friend, Superboy.
Does this mean that Luthor knows everything about the DCU heroes? Yes, he does. I'm pretty sure Luthor's known for a long damn time. How far back? I think be was responcible for the events of Bruce Wayne: Murderer and Titans/Young Justice: Graduation Day.
We know Luthor hired David Cain for the frame. That was not dumb luck. Batman was kept very busy, great distraction. What happened to Sasha? She was recruited by Checkmate. Who was sent to rub out Cain? Dead Shot, who we've seen doing jobs for Calculator and has done work of Luthor. Why not Deathstroke? Good question, Luthor may have not wanted Slade involved to hold onto a trump card for later. Maybe, he hadn't recruited Deathstroke yet.
The Outsiders have been fed info by Luthor through Deathstroke since they formed. There's a double agent in the Outsiders. My first thought was Shift, but I think the phone call between Max Lord and Simon Stagg was a red herring. I thought about Jade for a moment, since she did save Luthor, was not recruited by Arsenal, and did take over leadership. I would not be surprised if she was the traitor, since I've laid out some pretty damning evidence. However, my money is on Indigo. Her appearance was the cause of the formation of the Outsiders. Her actions took out Donna Troy. Most likely, there's a sleeper program inside her. I think Winick watched "Metropolis" (the anime).
So where is all this leading? Good question.
Luthor has Batman halfway turned against the League and building weapons. We all remember Tower of Babel, so we know this is bad.
Ted's dead and Ray and Ralph are out of the picture. Including Batman, that's FOUR of the big brains right there.
Luthor will most likely make use of that Russian mobster with the Sabbac powers and Black Adam when he moves against Captain Marvel.
The only piece that really has me confused is the Rann/Thanagar deal. I don't read Adam Strange, but there may be something there.
I don't know what Luthor's cooking, but this is going to be really bad.
This is the point where everyone, regardless of how much they agreed with it, realised that they had to be paying more attention.
Tad said it best...
Tad Ryerstad
Bloody f-ing Christ. You need to be working for DC and not... well... most of them.
Really, that's one hell of a theory. Completely plausible, you use evidence IN the comics to support it (although the mole inside Outsiders can be up for grabs)... and yeah, it'd still make one hell of a story.
I'll agree that Lex knows everything, in S/B... they kept hinting that (At the very least) Lex knew who Batman was, and was slowly piecing everything else together.
I will say though that the Rann/Thanagar War may not have much of anything to do with this "ultra-arc"... it may just be a lucky break for Luthor, since it involves the GLs and a chunk of the JSA.
Really, that's one hell of a theory. Completely plausible, you use evidence IN the comics to support it (although the mole inside Outsiders can be up for grabs)... and yeah, it'd still make one hell of a story.
I'll agree that Lex knows everything, in S/B... they kept hinting that (At the very least) Lex knew who Batman was, and was slowly piecing everything else together.
I will say though that the Rann/Thanagar War may not have much of anything to do with this "ultra-arc"... it may just be a lucky break for Luthor, since it involves the GLs and a chunk of the JSA.
And still Marty had more...
Marty Nozz
The thing that's picking at the edges of my brain about Rann/Thanagar is the timing. Something breaks loose on the other side of the galaxy that's going to pull some of the heavy hitters away now? No way. This was planned, but I'm not sure how. I'm looking at the villians involved in Identity Crisis and now in Countdown. Who does Calculator or Luthor have under them that could get to Rann or Thanagar and set this in motion? I may have to go back and grab up some Adam Strange comics. The answer isn't in Hawkman, so I think it must be there.
Oh, and don't go thinking for a second that sending Captain Boomerang was just an accident either. Boomerang's death really set off the Rogue War. Yes, it had been brewing for a while, but now we have it going full steam.
Why set this off? Because Wally needs to be kept busy. He's a member of the JLA and has close ties to the Teen Titans and Outsiders. Everyone knows and trusts Wally, and he can be almost everywhere at once. If Wally gets a clue as to what's going on, Luthor is screwed. Same goes with Oracle, but I think Calculator has her Buffaloed for now.
If Boomerang wasn't killed, he still would have gone to the Rogues to save his a**. Wally would still be get busy. Win/win for Luthor. Boomerang was expendable, especially with his son now in the game. Oooo. and look who arranged and encouraged the father/son reunion.
Keep an eye on Outsiders. Deathstroke let Arsenal live for a reason. Wilson wants payback on Green Arrow and greasing Roy would be sweet. There's something up.
Max Mercury had more evidence and some wrinkles of his own...
Max Mercury
A) I put forth the theory previously that Dr Moon-featured in Identity Crisis-
and Phobia-sitting right next to him-
brainwashed Jean Loring, got all the JLA info from her,
then set her up as the "fall guy" for IC.
Chronos did the transport-they travelled thru TIME.
("I told you we'd win."-Chronos, end of IC.)
They travelled into the basement (issue one clearly shows a
"*TUNK*" sound come from the basement when the killer arrives.
Meltzer's "official" answer FAILS to explain this.)
They then used a prototype based on Mr Miracle's antigrav discs to keep
from stepping on the carpet.
They have Jean emerge from the telephone as she confessed,
and do the brain damage (or another of them did it, coming thru the
phone, and Jean 'ported in with the others.)
Jean, now wearing antigrav discs, uses SIGNALMAN's gun
(remember Signalman? Dr Moon and Phobia were believed to have
made him vanish)
to fry Sue. "Goodbye Sue."
This is why she doesn't leave a footprint when SHE stands on the
carpet at normal size in IC 1.
Further, a brainwashed Signalman DID choke Jean Loring-
with the fancy-tied noose mentioned in IC.
Dr Moon brainwashed Jean to remember it the way she did-
and thus "confess".
Sometimes, unstable people confess to crimes they didn't commit.
Too bad Martian Manhunter never scanned her mind.
(Gamma Charge, I think, mentioned that first.)
If Luthor had hired Moon and Phobia to do this (and Chronos went along
as a last stab at the heroes before he died), then this all makes more
sense.
Otherwise, how did Dr Moon and Phobia benefit?
====
In "Hush", the comment he made about whether he should get involved
directly at the moment was
"not.....yet."
=====
When Luthor was believed dead, he emerged, vowing there would come
a crisis.
====
So,
other than Dr MOON rather than Dr PSYCHO being used as an agent,
I think you've got a theory as strong or STRONGER than the current
storyline.
and Phobia-sitting right next to him-
brainwashed Jean Loring, got all the JLA info from her,
then set her up as the "fall guy" for IC.
Chronos did the transport-they travelled thru TIME.
("I told you we'd win."-Chronos, end of IC.)
They travelled into the basement (issue one clearly shows a
"*TUNK*" sound come from the basement when the killer arrives.
Meltzer's "official" answer FAILS to explain this.)
They then used a prototype based on Mr Miracle's antigrav discs to keep
from stepping on the carpet.
They have Jean emerge from the telephone as she confessed,
and do the brain damage (or another of them did it, coming thru the
phone, and Jean 'ported in with the others.)
Jean, now wearing antigrav discs, uses SIGNALMAN's gun
(remember Signalman? Dr Moon and Phobia were believed to have
made him vanish)
to fry Sue. "Goodbye Sue."
This is why she doesn't leave a footprint when SHE stands on the
carpet at normal size in IC 1.
Further, a brainwashed Signalman DID choke Jean Loring-
with the fancy-tied noose mentioned in IC.
Dr Moon brainwashed Jean to remember it the way she did-
and thus "confess".
Sometimes, unstable people confess to crimes they didn't commit.
Too bad Martian Manhunter never scanned her mind.
(Gamma Charge, I think, mentioned that first.)
If Luthor had hired Moon and Phobia to do this (and Chronos went along
as a last stab at the heroes before he died), then this all makes more
sense.
Otherwise, how did Dr Moon and Phobia benefit?
====
In "Hush", the comment he made about whether he should get involved
directly at the moment was
"not.....yet."
=====
When Luthor was believed dead, he emerged, vowing there would come
a crisis.
====
So,
other than Dr MOON rather than Dr PSYCHO being used as an agent,
I think you've got a theory as strong or STRONGER than the current
storyline.
Marty Nozz
The Cronos, Phobia, Moon theory is another good angle. It a firm possibility since I can't pin down the actual trigger man on Sue. The noise downstairs is the one thing I can't factor, but there have been other red herrings in here, the have to be to keep everyone thrown off.
you're right, there were no footprints. Who has a tendancy to float and is involved? This points to Black Adam, but that doesn't feel right.
you're right, there were no footprints. Who has a tendancy to float and is involved? This points to Black Adam, but that doesn't feel right.
Though it would add relevance to the conversation about Adam's floating that for some reason is in Countdown.
I then rather unhelpfuly, derailed that thread a bit with a debate about whether or not, if this stuff turned out to be true, it had been planned at the time of Identity Crisis or cooked up after-the-fact behind closed doors.
I went on about this interview quite a bit, which is either very telling or the most astonishing pack of lies ever concocted:
http://www.newsarama.com/DC/Identity_Crisis/IdentityCrisisRevisit.htm
hvilli got us back on track though with more attentive reading:
hvilli
The only doubt in my mind about the end of IC is what Hal said to Ollie: "Make THEM pay ollie, make them pay". He migth be talking about several persons behind the death of Sue
Gamma Charge, who comes to play the voice of sober restraint in all these threads points out a possible probelm with Jean having been framed:
Gamma Charge
The first pages of Day of Vengenance would contradict this. Sorry.
Jean Loring is the new Eclipso. If Eclipso was what was pushing her into insanity then it is not her fault anymore. This makes her sudden descent into madness more plausible.
But Marty didn't see this as a problem:
Marty Nozz
That actually works with my theory. Eclipso exists as a person contained in the Black Diamond. Frame Jean, drive her mad and them have Black Adam give Jean the diamond now that her mind is more suseptable to the Eclipso persona. Why do this? Keep Ray busy. Emotionally conflict the good guys and make them less effectual. Tie up a loose end. Keep heat off of Luthor. We know Luthor is involved, this gives him another "big gun".
Now, if Jean was given the Diamond before IC, Luthor could have instructed Eclipso to make Jean kill Sue in the manner she did. This Makes Jean the "trigger-man" but still doesn't coutradist my theory.
So, inspired by all this speculating about the origin of the crisis, i started off on some speculating about the aftermath and the nature of the crisis.
pinderpanda
I was just lurking on another board and heard a great theory. It'll never actually happen, but it would blow everyone away if it did.
DC haven't commited yet to a regular creative team on JLA and big changes are really going to have to come to it...a flagship book can't carry on being an anthology title or what's the point of 'JLA: Classified'?
Now, those big changes are almost certain to involve a big roster change since a large part of the Didio masterplan for Infinite Crisis is about "Splitting up the trinity" and by the end of 2005 it's most likely going to be impossible for Bruce, Clark and Diana to all be on the same team. Depending on how far they go with this it might even be impossible for them to look each other in the eye.
So, what becomes of the JLA?
Well, the most obvious answer is that we see a return to something like the Giffen Leauge. It's hard to see how a satisfying story could be made out of the whole Sue/Ted stuff that doesn't end with some righteous and glorious heroism from Booster, Ralph and that lot that saves the day. This'd put them back in the limelight at the same time as the 'Big Seven' were crumbling. And I strongly suspect events will put them back at the forefront of the League in a new Giffen-esque incarnation. I doubt Giffen will end up writing it though...but hmm, I notice Dan Slott is down to do a JLA arc soon. Anyone else suspect he might be being 'auditioned'?
So that's what I think will happen...here's the other possibility. The Seven Soldiers of Victorywill have just saved the DCU at round about the time Infinite Crisis will have finished breaking up the JLA (assuming I'm right about that). Wouldn't it just be the most wonderfully WTF!? moment if both series ended with the Seven Soldiers becoming the new JLA?
DC haven't commited yet to a regular creative team on JLA and big changes are really going to have to come to it...a flagship book can't carry on being an anthology title or what's the point of 'JLA: Classified'?
Now, those big changes are almost certain to involve a big roster change since a large part of the Didio masterplan for Infinite Crisis is about "Splitting up the trinity" and by the end of 2005 it's most likely going to be impossible for Bruce, Clark and Diana to all be on the same team. Depending on how far they go with this it might even be impossible for them to look each other in the eye.
So, what becomes of the JLA?
Well, the most obvious answer is that we see a return to something like the Giffen Leauge. It's hard to see how a satisfying story could be made out of the whole Sue/Ted stuff that doesn't end with some righteous and glorious heroism from Booster, Ralph and that lot that saves the day. This'd put them back in the limelight at the same time as the 'Big Seven' were crumbling. And I strongly suspect events will put them back at the forefront of the League in a new Giffen-esque incarnation. I doubt Giffen will end up writing it though...but hmm, I notice Dan Slott is down to do a JLA arc soon. Anyone else suspect he might be being 'auditioned'?
So that's what I think will happen...here's the other possibility. The Seven Soldiers of Victorywill have just saved the DCU at round about the time Infinite Crisis will have finished breaking up the JLA (assuming I'm right about that). Wouldn't it just be the most wonderfully WTF!? moment if both series ended with the Seven Soldiers becoming the new JLA?
Tad Ryerstad
There's already tension between the Trinity... thanks to Superman/Batman.
Superman (in an alt. timeline) killed Diana very gruesomely, because she killed Batman. Supes and Batman retain their memories of the entire event, but they're the only two.
Not to mention the sexual tension between Diana and Bruce is now semi-permanent.
Right now Batman's list of "People I trust" is dwindling because of what the JLA did to him in Identity Crisis. He knows Clark wasn't there, but it's an association thing. Plus, with what's happening with Jason Todd right now, he's not too concerned with anything outside of Gotham currently, other than maybe The Outsiders.
Superman (in an alt. timeline) killed Diana very gruesomely, because she killed Batman. Supes and Batman retain their memories of the entire event, but they're the only two.
Not to mention the sexual tension between Diana and Bruce is now semi-permanent.
Right now Batman's list of "People I trust" is dwindling because of what the JLA did to him in Identity Crisis. He knows Clark wasn't there, but it's an association thing. Plus, with what's happening with Jason Todd right now, he's not too concerned with anything outside of Gotham currently, other than maybe The Outsiders.
pinderpanda
Thanks for running through the detail...and for what it's worth I'm with you on Superman/Batman being important - I think Loeb's stuff is all turning out to be significant to the GiantEpicEverythingPlot - and with you on The Outsiders: That's where I see Bats ending up once the current JLA disband.
Then, once again, the voice of sober restraint appeared to stop me seeing conspiracies behind every publishing choice :
Gamma Charge
Originally they went for JLA:C because Busiek WAS going to be the regular writer. He isn't going to be the regular writer because he has some health issues that made him back out a couple of months ago after his arc had started. He said with his current state of health, combined with the amount of work needed for a JLA title considering all the coordination involved with the rest of the DCU editors/writers he couldn't handle the workload. He said he DOES have some ideas for the JLA he would like to work out and will return at a later date.
Gamma Charge was also around when I posted this...
pinderpanda
I think I've figured out why Shazam broke the habit of a lifetime and communicated with Ted.
See if you can get there... What does Blue Beetle have in common with the Marvel family? That would be relevant in a sequal to Crisis on Infinite Earths?
...though here she didn't guess my theory, but instead a more likely one. sad
Gamma Charge
The magical scarab. Notice how Shazam sent away Ted and took the scarab. Also, they allude to Days of Vengeance when he shows a vision to Ted. The scarab is probably going to play a part in DoV. Willingham also noted that each issue of DoV would focus on a member of the team of second stringers taking on the Spectre. Only 5 members have been named IIRC but there are 6 issues. Whoever takes on the mantle of the Blue Beetle will probably use the magical scarab like the original and be a part of the DoV crew.
Beatiful Nemuro however sussed out what I was getting at, and I expounded my crazy notions further...
pinderpanda
Okay...neither Blue Beetle nor the Marvel family were originaly DC characters.
Both belonged to other companies, and other universes, that were eventually bought by DC. Much like the Wildstorm universe got bought a while back.
Now, just like DC are doing with Wildstorm, they ran them for a while as separate universes within a multiverse, but then, during the Crisis on Infinite Earths, thier worlds were merged with Earth-1 and Earth-2 to create the modern DCU.
A place which both the little blue bug and the big red cheese don't really belong, although they're not aware of that.
Rumours and leaks last year, before DC even confirmed that there was a new Crisis on the way, suggested that things were going to go horribly wrong when someone realised that something was wrong with the universe based on how dark things got in Identity Crisis and tried to get thier old universe back...
Max filled in the blanks...
Max Mercury
I've been waiting for the Scarab to be used for
something SINCE Crisis on Infinite Earths,
where it was not particularly useful against
shadow demons.
It needs a recharge of some kind.
========
In answer to the "other companies" thing,
let's see...
the Marvel Family and the "Shazam Squadron of
Justice" were from Fawcett comics.
Other than the 3 main Marvels,
and Ibis the Invincible,
the others seem gone for good.
A shame, really-the names
"Mr Scarlet and Pinky the whiz kid" were always good
for a laugh.
The L.A.W. (Living Assault Weapons) team was all
the Charleston Comics characters-
Blue Beetle
Captain Atom
Peacemaker
Judomaster
Nightshade
All of them have been used in recent years, but
Nightshade barely so. Since the Charleston crew
partly came over with their characters, that makes
some sense. d**k Giordano, IIRC, drew some of them,
and he became DC Managing Editor at one time.
The Freedom Fighters must have come over also,
but I don't know who published them.
That's with Uncle Sam, the Ray, the Human Bomb,
Phantom Lady, Doll Man, the Red Bee.
I forget if !mpact was another DC line-if so,
they ran with a series of characters from the
Golden Age as well.
Seems that's what they did with Milestone, as well.
Marvel's only had limited success in this regard,
like the Ultraverse buyout.
Which caught Virgil's imagination enough to make another link...
Virgil Hawkins
Hmm... Ibis the Invincible is from another company too?
Maybe it's not related, but... Ibis the Invincible bites it in Zatanna #1 and I loved pinder's theory about Seven Soldiers and the JLA. Beetle senses something's wrong with the universe, Shazam does as well and so does Ibis (and the others... who were the others, had they shown up anywhere before?) If there indeed is a tie between Seven Soldiers, Infinite Crisis and Identity Crisis, maybe that's it?
And caught the attention of the King of Conspiracies...
Marty Nozz
Well, well. Looks like I'm not the only one with an Infinite Crisis conspiracy theory. This is worth considering. I've been wondering myself lately whether or not Luthor was main "big bad" or if he was acting as an agent of another.
Although I still think Luthor was behind Indentity Crisis.
A more "cosmic" evil could be behind things. The kind that could cause trouble on Rann/Thanagar and set into motion Hal Jordan's resurrection, thereby leaving the Spectre without a host.
It's starting to seem like the calm before the storm.
Although I still think Luthor was behind Indentity Crisis.
A more "cosmic" evil could be behind things. The kind that could cause trouble on Rann/Thanagar and set into motion Hal Jordan's resurrection, thereby leaving the Spectre without a host.
It's starting to seem like the calm before the storm.
pinderpanda
Have you seen the end of Teen Titans #20?
Luthor tells the Calculator, "You may be plugged in...but so am I. and you know what I mean by that. My partner--"
At the time he's looking at a display of 'Superboys through the ages' (One of which I'm not sure is part of the DCU right now)
Another big clue that there's a 'multiversal' element to the new Crisis is what's been going on with Power Girl, the hints in this month's solicitations that it's important for the crisis and the fact that her situation is brought up in Countdown.
Basicly her Post-crisis origins have been dubunked. So where's she really from? Doesn't look like from universe they think she is.
The Return of Donna Troy looks like it may play with these ideas too.
Caz_Nova
As for Powergirl, I'd expect something to be made of it, I mean look at what Supes said. Also does anyone have information on Powergirl, I mean including Checkmate, and Maxwell Lord?
It's also going to include the Thanagarians, and Rann somehow. So this is really bigger than they made it out to be in some ways.
pinderpanda
You're really on to something there.
If they know all there is to be known about the heroes...the only gap in thier knowledge/power is in the pre-Crisis facts that can't be known...like the other universes where Power Girl, Blue Beetle, Shazam, and...for that matter, OMAC, came from.
Since writing that JSA #72 has shown us that we're spot on about Power Girl's importance. What else we're right about we'll find out as the months go by.
As we do, I propose we keep this thread open as a place for posting and discussing all our theories and also for editing into the main post any sparks of wisdom that show up on other threads.
