Page Layouts-Right to Left: Discussion

[-2o]

But it was never the case that anyone cared to stop you, only that people who make the choice to do so face the possibility of having readers who will not read it at all because it was against their reading order and was not previously translated.

"They want to" does not occur in a vacuum. Your opinion goes against facts, so you are welcome to hold it, but don't be surprised when others don't drink the kool-aid.

You don't need to cite an essay. If you are saying that it allows you to do something different than left to right, all you would have to do is describe just what that thing is. That's it.

[Amentar]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

the only comment worth replying to in the above post is that it was a likely co-incidence that my first exposure to the format was manga?

I really hope you're trolling because I hate to think anyone is this stupid in real life. I mean, however do they keep you from drowning in your Cheerios every morning?

[Fansub]

I told a Japanese friend about this some time ago and his response was a very confused "but don't you read English from left to right?"

So I explained to him that people were doing this because they thought it was part of the manga style, and he was all wwwwwwww for a while. Then he asked me "is that what you call weeaboo?"

It was kinda cute.

[lune argent bleu]

Amentar

[~Ramble.Corset~]

well like our 'manga' artists in english, the 'comic' artists in japan are entitled to use left to right if they choose, that doesn't mean they're trying to mimic and be english, so it doesn't mean we're trying to mimic and be japanese

Did you ever meet a non sequitur you didn't like? If a Japanese person adopted an American fashion and cited their reasoning as "that's how they do it in America," damn straight it would be mimicry. There's nothing wrong with mimicry itself, but it's a stupid justification for doing something a particular way when there are better alternatives.

And for myself, I find it extremely silly when they do.

[Kupocake]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

alright I give up, I've had fun 'discussing' this matter with you, but I feel like we're just rehashing points. I have an opinion that it's an artistic choice, others have the opinion that it's a choice to mimic. I have the opinion there are exceptions to everything, and that doens't mean that everyone who follows that exception is doing it for the same reason, if you don't like their reasoning, well I guess don't read?
I don't have much more time to waste looking up essays and citing resources that I'm sure you'll just look down on anyway since they don't agree with your view.
If people want to go against the reading order and rules of comic and choose instead to follow the reading order and rules of manga, well they should feel free to do so for no other reason than 'they want to'.

People who took for too much logic in art wind up getting lost anyway.

I'm going to play semi-devil's advocate here, because I am a huge advocate for left-to-right if you're speaking English, but there are some things that Japanese manga does that's different than Western comics, in terms of how to read the comic.

Manga tends to side with top-down first, with a right-left slant. Of course, how the page is laid out will dictate exactly what goes first, but manga will play with the "read top-to-bottom first" paneling much more than Western comics will. There is something very unique about the way manga is read. If you stripped a random Western comic page and a random Japanese manga page of all its art and dialogue, you can still tell what's Western and what's Japanese.

I'm still all for "if you're going to write in English, panel it left-to-right," but there are a number of OEL manga that reads left-to-right, but follows the Japanese paneling aesthetic. Perhaps that's what draws you to the manga-way of paneling, not necessarily because it's right-to-left.

[-2o]

Kupocake

[~Ramble.Corset~]

alright I give up, I've had fun 'discussing' this matter with you, but I feel like we're just rehashing points. I have an opinion that it's an artistic choice, others have the opinion that it's a choice to mimic. I have the opinion there are exceptions to everything, and that doens't mean that everyone who follows that exception is doing it for the same reason, if you don't like their reasoning, well I guess don't read?
I don't have much more time to waste looking up essays and citing resources that I'm sure you'll just look down on anyway since they don't agree with your view.
If people want to go against the reading order and rules of comic and choose instead to follow the reading order and rules of manga, well they should feel free to do so for no other reason than 'they want to'.

People who took for too much logic in art wind up getting lost anyway.

I'm going to play semi-devil's advocate here, because I am a huge advocate for left-to-right if you're speaking English, but there are some things that Japanese manga does that's different than Western comics, in terms of how to read the comic.

Manga tends to side with top-down first, with a right-left slant. Of course, how the page is laid out will dictate exactly what goes first, but manga will play with the "read top-to-bottom first" paneling much more than Western comics will. There is something very unique about the way manga is read. If you stripped a random Western comic page and a random Japanese manga page of all its art and dialogue, you can still tell what's Western and what's Japanese.

I'm still all for "if you're going to write in English, panel it left-to-right," but there are a number of OEL manga that reads left-to-right, but follows the Japanese paneling aesthetic. Perhaps that's what draws you to the manga-way of paneling, not necessarily because it's right-to-left.

That's an interesting point.

I would say a focus on top to bottom is also a function of their language, similar in the same vein to the issue of right - to left, that is - because their language reads that way , that is how they write their comics. I would argue that it is still possible to lead the eye top to bottom without resorting to flipping reading order and that their are many english language left to right reading comics that get creative with their panelling without completely confusing potential readers. In the time it takes to write this, Lucifer and the new Batwoman come to mind (though the latter can go a little too overboard) but i'm sure I could think of others.

I think what a lot of the artists of these right to left english comics don't understand is that while reading the other way may be no big deal to them, there are people who do not have a long background in reading manga and then that confuses them. For my part, I don't immediately put anything down that's english language right to left, but I do count that as a mark against, because to me it is a sign of poor judgement.

[Kupocake]

-2o

Kupocake

[~Ramble.Corset~]

alright I give up, I've had fun 'discussing' this matter with you, but I feel like we're just rehashing points. I have an opinion that it's an artistic choice, others have the opinion that it's a choice to mimic. I have the opinion there are exceptions to everything, and that doens't mean that everyone who follows that exception is doing it for the same reason, if you don't like their reasoning, well I guess don't read?
I don't have much more time to waste looking up essays and citing resources that I'm sure you'll just look down on anyway since they don't agree with your view.
If people want to go against the reading order and rules of comic and choose instead to follow the reading order and rules of manga, well they should feel free to do so for no other reason than 'they want to'.

People who took for too much logic in art wind up getting lost anyway.

I'm going to play semi-devil's advocate here, because I am a huge advocate for left-to-right if you're speaking English, but there are some things that Japanese manga does that's different than Western comics, in terms of how to read the comic.

Manga tends to side with top-down first, with a right-left slant. Of course, how the page is laid out will dictate exactly what goes first, but manga will play with the "read top-to-bottom first" paneling much more than Western comics will. There is something very unique about the way manga is read. If you stripped a random Western comic page and a random Japanese manga page of all its art and dialogue, you can still tell what's Western and what's Japanese.

I'm still all for "if you're going to write in English, panel it left-to-right," but there are a number of OEL manga that reads left-to-right, but follows the Japanese paneling aesthetic. Perhaps that's what draws you to the manga-way of paneling, not necessarily because it's right-to-left.

That's an interesting point.

I would say a focus on top to bottom is also a function of their language, similar in the same vein to the issue of right - to left, that is - because their language reads that way , that is how they write their comics. I would argue that it is still possible to lead the eye top to bottom without resorting to flipping reading order and that their are many english language left to right reading comics that get creative with their panelling without completely confusing potential readers. In the time it takes to write this, Lucifer and the new Batwoman come to mind (though the latter can go a little too overboard) but i'm sure I could think of others.

I think what a lot of the artists of these right to left english comics don't understand is that while reading the other way may be no big deal to them, there are people who do not have a long background in reading manga and then that confuses them. For my part, I don't immediately put anything down that's english language right to left, but I do count that as a mark against, because to me it is a sign of poor judgement.

Yeah, hence the mention of OEL (Original English Language) manga. They're not amazing examples, but they utilize conventional Japanese manga paneling with a left-to-right format.

I get immediately turned off by right-to-left comics written originally in English. Unless they have a good reason (Blackbird, for example, was written originally in Taiwanese), I tend to just hit the back button as soon as I see the Japanese reading format.

[False Nexus]

When I make any form of comic I always have left to right in mind.

Most of what I have read and have grown up on is manga though.

It makes more sense that I do it L to R, because it flows easier (keeping text in mind).

I can also understand why they don't flip manga. I heard somewhere that manga artists had asked that their work stay R to L because it was the composition that they had in mind when constructing the story.

I honestly don't have any difficulty reading it either way, but I have been reading Japanese comics for a while now.

[kwahoo]

-2o

So tell me, in simple and plain english because I must be sort of drunk, *one* thing, just one, that you can do with right to left that is not possible with left to right.

Go from east to west on a standard map?

[-2o]

Kupocake

-2o

Kupocake

[~Ramble.Corset~]

alright I give up, I've had fun 'discussing' this matter with you, but I feel like we're just rehashing points. I have an opinion that it's an artistic choice, others have the opinion that it's a choice to mimic. I have the opinion there are exceptions to everything, and that doens't mean that everyone who follows that exception is doing it for the same reason, if you don't like their reasoning, well I guess don't read?
I don't have much more time to waste looking up essays and citing resources that I'm sure you'll just look down on anyway since they don't agree with your view.
If people want to go against the reading order and rules of comic and choose instead to follow the reading order and rules of manga, well they should feel free to do so for no other reason than 'they want to'.

People who took for too much logic in art wind up getting lost anyway.

I'm going to play semi-devil's advocate here, because I am a huge advocate for left-to-right if you're speaking English, but there are some things that Japanese manga does that's different than Western comics, in terms of how to read the comic.

Manga tends to side with top-down first, with a right-left slant. Of course, how the page is laid out will dictate exactly what goes first, but manga will play with the "read top-to-bottom first" paneling much more than Western comics will. There is something very unique about the way manga is read. If you stripped a random Western comic page and a random Japanese manga page of all its art and dialogue, you can still tell what's Western and what's Japanese.

I'm still all for "if you're going to write in English, panel it left-to-right," but there are a number of OEL manga that reads left-to-right, but follows the Japanese paneling aesthetic. Perhaps that's what draws you to the manga-way of paneling, not necessarily because it's right-to-left.

That's an interesting point.

I would say a focus on top to bottom is also a function of their language, similar in the same vein to the issue of right - to left, that is - because their language reads that way , that is how they write their comics. I would argue that it is still possible to lead the eye top to bottom without resorting to flipping reading order and that their are many english language left to right reading comics that get creative with their panelling without completely confusing potential readers. In the time it takes to write this, Lucifer and the new Batwoman come to mind (though the latter can go a little too overboard) but i'm sure I could think of others.

I think what a lot of the artists of these right to left english comics don't understand is that while reading the other way may be no big deal to them, there are people who do not have a long background in reading manga and then that confuses them. For my part, I don't immediately put anything down that's english language right to left, but I do count that as a mark against, because to me it is a sign of poor judgement.

Yeah, hence the mention of OEL (Original English Language) manga. They're not amazing examples, but they utilize conventional Japanese manga paneling with a left-to-right format.

I get immediately turned off by right-to-left comics written originally in English. Unless they have a good reason (Blackbird, for example, was written originally in Taiwanese), I tend to just hit the back button as soon as I see the Japanese reading format.

Damn that means I haven't seen on of those OEL bad boys in a while. Why in all the worlds did I think they were right to left?

kwahoo

Ah yes, walked into that one. Don't understand the relevance of the link,though

[Ethma]

Ramble, I think what you're missing here is this; it is a choice--don't think of it as an artistic choice, because this angle is more relevant to you if you are making a comic:

If you do your comic right to left, you are choosing to alienate a percent of any English speaking audience that is stumbling upon your website for the first time. What kind of number is that percent? It doesn't matter, because it's higher than the ZERO percent that will close the page on principal if you just ******** do your comic from left to right like all sane people everywhere.

If you are making a webcomic, I'm going to assume that the thing that you want most is for people to give it a chance and actually read it. The reality is that, regardless of your 'aesthetic tastes', if you choose to do right to left, there will be no shortage of readers who take one look at your comic, decide you're a weeaboo and then leave and never come back, regardless of the quality of your comic. No one wants to read a comic that gives them a headache, or makes them work twice as hard to read it. If it feels like a chore, then it is one, and more often than not, a reader like me will say '******** this comic' and be done with you.

If you do your comic left to right, in English, none of this is a problem. At all.

[YugureMuffin]

I rather agree with making your comic in the way your language read, writes etc. Because as stated this is logical and easier for your public.
As for the starter of this thread needed to keep friends happy who wanted it right-to-left than right-to-left is a good choice when friends are the only ones reading it
If I draw a page that resembles the panels of a comic they are automatically left-to-right as I write them in Dutch and sometimes in English (for a wider public) but originally I would have wanted to do them right-to-left. But as I said I automatically write them left-to-right, so they'll allways be like this.
And that's what people are trying to say in like a lot of words but there are only two needed: logic and public.
That's what is needed to be in mind. (Certainly when you want more succes)
----
With my sister it was the same she wanted to write them (but really wanted to) right-to-left and when she was finnished she was dumbfounded as she had written them left-to-right. And she had good comments for her work of her English-speaking public who loved to read school romance.
----
But the others explain it so far more cooler than I do

[Tenko72]

I need to ask this before I forget again.

Tenko72

Whenever I read about pages, I wonder why the direction pages get turned don't match with how you read the words. I understand why words are read a certain way, but why don't pages go in the direction the words do? Shouldn't pages in English be turned left to right, since that's how you read them? This has been bugging me since elementary school, since I'd always flip the pages the same direction the words went in.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, it's easiest to read things in the order the words go in. It really, really, really is. You want to make things easy for the people reading your comic. You don't want to make them jump through hoops. They can always choose to read something easier on them. I do it all the time. The only hard to read books I've ever bought were text books.

I've honestly never read a good comic in a left-to-right language that originally went right-to-left. Hilariously, when I come across one that is good, it ends up being made by someone who translated it from a right-to-left language into English.

[Catanaition N. D.]

Tenko72

I need to ask this before I forget again.

Tenko72

Whenever I read about pages, I wonder why the direction pages get turned don't match with how you read the words. I understand why words are read a certain way, but why don't pages go in the direction the words do? Shouldn't pages in English be turned left to right, since that's how you read them? This has been bugging me since elementary school, since I'd always flip the pages the same direction the words went in.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, it's easiest to read things in the order the words go in. It really, really, really is. You want to make things easy for the people reading your comic. You don't want to make them jump through hoops. They can always choose to read something easier on them. I do it all the time. The only hard to read books I've ever bought were text books.

I've honestly never read a good comic in a left-to-right language that originally went right-to-left. Hilariously, when I come across one that is good, it ends up being made by someone who translated it from a right-to-left language into English.

But... pages do go left->right (or right-to-left in the countries where that is the reading direction). If you mean the literal page flipping itself... um. Physics? The laws of the universe? That's why.

[Tenko72]

Catanaition N. D.

Tenko72

I need to ask this before I forget again.

Tenko72

Whenever I read about pages, I wonder why the direction pages get turned don't match with how you read the words. I understand why words are read a certain way, but why don't pages go in the direction the words do? Shouldn't pages in English be turned left to right, since that's how you read them? This has been bugging me since elementary school, since I'd always flip the pages the same direction the words went in.

Now that I've got that off of my chest, it's easiest to read things in the order the words go in. It really, really, really is. You want to make things easy for the people reading your comic. You don't want to make them jump through hoops. They can always choose to read something easier on them. I do it all the time. The only hard to read books I've ever bought were text books.

I've honestly never read a good comic in a left-to-right language that originally went right-to-left. Hilariously, when I come across one that is good, it ends up being made by someone who translated it from a right-to-left language into English.

But... pages do go left->right (or right-to-left in the countries where that is the reading direction). If you mean the literal page flipping itself... um. Physics? The laws of the universe? That's why.

I meant the literal one. Your answer made me smile.