Page Layouts-Right to Left: Discussion

[JungleYaoi]

Kaxen

JungleYaoi

I didn't even know they made ones that can be read frontwards and backwards. >w<

It's usually just short comics that can pull it off.

Well, I'm pretty sure you could win greatest comic book artist forever to write a multivolume epic that can be read backwards and forwards...

Damn,now I'm gonna have to look these up. XD

That would actually be pretty cool if someone ever did that. =3

[Amentar]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

I...didn't think you were serious

You quoted devilyoudont saying there's no reason Westerners draw comics right to left "other than mimicking translated Japanese comics." Your reply was "an artist is allowed to use what they feel is a good idea to use as their page layout, whether or not it has been overused in another culture and thus considered 'mimicing'." (Emphasis addded.) Given that devilyoudont was accusing people of mimicking Japanese page layouts, the only "other culture" you could logically be referring to is that of Japan. But logic is clearly not your strong suit, so why don't you explain what you actually meant.

Quote:

true but they would probably be seen to be more 'adapting' their style without as much negativity associated with the action.

You don't know much about Japan if you think there's no stigma for pointless acts of mimicry.

Quote:

because of a few immature people and people who probably haven't analysed the 'why' other than 'that's the general rule of manga, right?' there's a negative stigma attached to english artists using japanese principles and methods

Technically, we're complaining because people are failing to use "Japanese principles and methods"--namely, the one that goes: "draw the page in the same direction as the text." And there should be a negative stigma attached to doing dumb things for dumb reasons. Instead of getting incoherently defensive, why don't you show us some examples of speakers of left-to-right languages drawing right-to-left comics for any reason besides mimicry?

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

Amentar

[~Ramble.Corset~]

I...didn't think you were serious

You quoted devilyoudont saying there's no reason Westerners draw comics right to left "other than mimicking translated Japanese comics." Your reply was "an artist is allowed to use what they feel is a good idea to use as their page layout, whether or not it has been overused in another culture and thus considered 'mimicing'." (Emphasis addded.) Given that devilyoudont was accusing people of mimicking Japanese page layouts, the only "other culture" you could logically be referring to is that of Japan. But logic is clearly not your strong suit, so why don't you explain what you actually meant.

Quote:

true but they would probably be seen to be more 'adapting' their style without as much negativity associated with the action.

You don't know much about Japan if you think there's no stigma for pointless acts of mimicry.

Quote:

because of a few immature people and people who probably haven't analysed the 'why' other than 'that's the general rule of manga, right?' there's a negative stigma attached to english artists using japanese principles and methods

Technically, we're complaining because people are failing to use "Japanese principles and methods"--namely, the one that goes: "draw the page in the same direction as the text." And there should be a negative stigma attached to doing dumb things for dumb reasons. Instead of getting incoherently defensive, why don't you show us some examples of speakers of left-to-right languages drawing right-to-left comics for any reason besides mimicry?

I took an elective on japanese and japanese culture
given 'overused' was the wrong term to use, I would hope that you would be able to understand that I meant that what english audiences get out of, or get to see from japanese culture is the right to left format.
also, took a semester in logic - got high marks cool
Do you really think that if an asian/japanese person posted in this thread 'doing a comic left to right' that they would be considered wanting to mimic english formats for the sake of mimicing? wheras some people who have posted in this thread immediately cry 'foul!' if someone who's english wants to make a manga in right to left formats
lastly, perhaps the reason why you've been getting 'dumb' answers is because you're not asking the right people, or the right question. sometimes when someone fails to change or add to your opinion it is not all of their fault, and any attempt to justify their reasoning does not immediately indicate they're defensive.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

Also, for an example, I write and plan my pages using a right to left format. Quite franky I love the style, and have such ever since I picked up my first manga. it was a format that was easy for me to switch to and looking back on it, even after all my exposure to how 'awesome' anime and manga is, I wouldn't have cared if it was japanese, chinese, british, french or english style of comics. Like people who have seen a comic that stretches on forever in a direction without page endings, or people who like working with or reading comics that are able to branch out in different directions, it is a style I enjoy not only reading but working with. And as an artist who loves experimenting, no answer comes to mind when I think 'I should do this right to left. After all, why not?'
if it makes you feel better call me a weeaboo, although my favour for this style has nothing to do wtih japanese or foreign origins

[-2o]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

Do you really think that if an asian/japanese person posted in this thread 'doing a comic left to right' that they would be considered wanting to mimic english formats for the sake of mimicing? wheras some people who have posted in this thread immediately cry 'foul!' if someone who's english wants to make a manga in right to left formats

You're really not crying that it is some bizarre form of discrimination are you? Because really, now.

If the rationale for your hypothetical asian person was "Even though I'm drawing this for people who read right to left, i'm still going to do it left to right because that's how they do it in -insert english speaking, left to right reading language based country here-" they'd have reasoning just as shitty and therefore, my reaction is exactly the same.

It's not a crusade against weeaboos or people who like manga, it's a question of sense and it makes no sense to draw a comic in the opposite direction from the one your readers read in. The japanese seem to agree, since they are currently not drawing comics left to right for japanese readers, a situation which is the the actual mirror for what you are describing.

Give me one good reason for doing right to left that doesn't rely on doing it because you think it's a stylistic choice they are making. Because it isn't and there is no need to treat it as if it is. It's like being a woman, getting inspired by mens fashion and then rejecting tight pants because you need your balls to breathe. There are some things that just don't make sense to replicate, even when mimicry is the name of the game.

You don't have balls and your comic does not need to be translated from a right to left reading language.

[~Ramble.Corset~]

Quite franky I love the style, and have such ever since I picked up my first manga.

But it's not a style at all.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

-2o

You're really not crying that it is some bizarre form of discrimination are you? Because really, now.

If the rationale for your hypothetical asian person was "Even though I'm drawing this for people who read right to left, i'm still going to do it left to right because that's how they do it in -insert english speaking, left to right reading language based country here-" they'd have reasoning just as shitty and therefore, my reaction is exactly the same.

no just that there would be less stigma attached to it. Just because for the sake of the argument you acknowledge the reasoning is the same and therefore poor does not mean others would.

-2o

It's not a crusade against weeaboos or people who like manga, it's a question of sense and it makes no sense to draw a comic in the opposite direction from the one your readers read in. The japanese seem to agree, since they are currently not drawing comics left to right for japanese readers, a situation which is the the actual mirror for what you are describing.

there's actually a reason for that. There was an article written by someone who wrote how even anime inspired cartoons find pronounced difficulty in being broadcasted or marketed to a japanese audience, and therefore not a lot of companies will work with an english based one to make content for japanese audiences. I imagine it would be the same reasoning for manga.

-2o

Give me one good reason for doing right to left that doesn't rely on doing it because you think it's a stylistic choice they are making. Because it isn't and there is no need to treat it as if it is. It's like being a woman, getting inspired by mens fashion and then rejecting tight pants because you need your balls to breathe.

You don't have balls and your comic does not need to be translated from a right to left reading language.

artists are able to adapt features and inspiration from many things to create a piece, that someone chooses for whatever reason to use a right to left format does not mean the whole piece is reduced as a whole because of its original source. True it doesn't 'need' it, but what piece 'needs' something? I could choose to do it in a random format if I chose, it would be nonsensical and confusing but it would still be a piece.

And by the way, to everyone, try to refrain from discrediting me as a way of evidence against my argument. my opinion still stands as is without your opinion of me.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

-2o

But it's not a style at all.

style/format/principle/method/R2L, etc. everyone I've talked to on this topic has a favourite term, if you choose to pick what you would have me referred to it as

[IronSpike]

People who speak English and insist on drawing comics to read from right to left are the same as people who go on a week-long vacation to London and come back home with an English accent.

Yeah, we get it. You were really, really impressed.

But guess what? I'm not.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

IronSpike

People who speak English and insist on drawing comics to read from right to left are the same as people who go on a week-long vacation to London and come back home with an English accent.

Yeah, we get it. You were really, really impressed.

But guess what? I'm not.

okay then. I doubt the purpose of the thread or my posts were to impress you over a format issue

[-2o]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

-2o

You're really not crying that it is some bizarre form of discrimination are you? Because really, now.

If the rationale for your hypothetical asian person was "Even though I'm drawing this for people who read right to left, i'm still going to do it left to right because that's how they do it in -insert english speaking, left to right reading language based country here-" they'd have reasoning just as shitty and therefore, my reaction is exactly the same.

no just that there would be less stigma attached to it. Just because for the sake of the argument you acknowledge the reasoning is the same and therefore poor does not mean others would.

-2o

It's not a crusade against weeaboos or people who like manga, it's a question of sense and it makes no sense to draw a comic in the opposite direction from the one your readers read in. The japanese seem to agree, since they are currently not drawing comics left to right for japanese readers, a situation which is the the actual mirror for what you are describing.

there's actually a reason for that. There was an article written by someone who wrote how even anime inspired cartoons find pronounced difficulty in being broadcasted or marketed to a japanese audience, and therefore not a lot of companies will work with an english based one to make content for japanese audiences. I imagine it would be the same reasoning for manga.

-2o

Give me one good reason for doing right to left that doesn't rely on doing it because you think it's a stylistic choice they are making. Because it isn't and there is no need to treat it as if it is. It's like being a woman, getting inspired by mens fashion and then rejecting tight pants because you need your balls to breathe.

You don't have balls and your comic does not need to be translated from a right to left reading language.

[~Ramble.Corset~]

artists are able to adapt features and inspiration from many things to create a piece, that someone chooses for whatever reason to use a right to left format does not mean the whole piece is reduced as a whole because of its original source. True it doesn't 'need' it, but what piece 'needs' something? I could choose to do it in a random format if I chose, it would be nonsensical and confusing but it would still be a piece.

And by the way, to everyone, try to refrain from discrediting me as a way of evidence against my argument. my opinion still stands as is without your opinion of me.

What exactly do you want me to do with your goal post moving? Am I really supposed to be able to prove that in some random hypothetical that other people wouldn't hold a double standard? They are irrelevant. The point is that the logic is bad in any case and citing that hypothetical as a "aha!" moment doesn't make sense.

The problem is not with inspiration. Never has been. I don't know why you are invested in presenting something that is done as a cheap bid for legitimacy that doesn't make sense in light of the reasoning for why they(japanese artists/translators) do it as something that needs to be defended. If you want to do it, go for it, but it isn't an artistic choice. It literally has nothing to do with the art at all. There is nothing that is revelatory in using right to left that isn't present in left to right. It is not the same as doing a comic in a format in someway that is supposed to enhance the reading experience, because it is not meant to, it is just the way things naturally go with their language. That's it, that's all.

Of course stuff in left to right is not popular in japan. They do not read that way. Why in the world would you create something specifically for japanese consumption that reads against their languages reading order?

The purpose of that analogy is that an intelligent artist can separate the parts of a comic or manga or whatever, that were done intentionally as a stylistic element and those that are just a function of the unique circumstances of the ones doing X, Y, or Z.

Just as a man might avoid pants that are too tight because of the specifics of his anatomy, A japanese artist avoids drawing in left to right because of the specifics of their language. It's not an artistic flair, nor is it a matter of style- it is how they deal with a specific problem caused by an essential feature.

When you do not have that problem, that is, you are a woman or you are writing in a language that reads left to right, it makes little sense to mimic the solution to a problem that you do not have.

If you make the decision to do it just because your counterpart did it, it is blind mimicry, it doesn't make sense and it is not evidence of a crusade against you when people do not like your illogic and elect not to associate with your work.

e:I don't need to include "you" as in "you, Ramble Corset" to discredit your ridiculous claims.

And it is not a style/format/principle/method etc. It is none of those things.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

-2o

What exactly do you want me to do with your goal post moving? Am I really supposed to be able to prove that in some random hypothetical that other people would hold a double standard? They are irrelevant. The point is that the logic is bad in any case and citing that hypothetical as a "aha!" moment doesn't make sense.

I only need to suggest that something like a double standard among consumers and commenters could occur, you would need to prove it wouldn't. Devil's proof I guess?

-2o

it isn't an artistic choice. It literally has nothing to do with the art at all. There is nothing that is revelatory in using right to left that isn't present in left to right. It is not the same as doing a comic in a format in someway that is supposed to enhance the reading experience, because it is not meant to, it is just the way things naturally go with their language. That's it, that's all.

well no but it is an artist's choice. Some find it does enhance the reading experience, if you don't agree with them that's fine.

-2o

Of course stuff in left to right is not popular in japan. They do not read that way. Why in the world would you create something specifically for japanese consumption that reads against their languages reading order?

....for the same reason we create something for english consumption against their reading order? someone liked the format, or the idea of the format, and adapted it to suit their planning, writing, or artist style.

-2o

The purpose of that analogy is that an intelligent artist can separate the parts of a comic or manga or whatever, that were done intentionally

maybe it's just cause I do it intentionally, and not under the pretense of a rule, sorry I can't really comment much on that point

-2o

Just as a man might avoid pants that are too tight because of the specifics of his anatomy,

there are always exceptions.

I

-2o

f you make the decision to do it just because your counterpart did it, it is blind mimicry, it doesn't make sense and it is not evidence of a crusade against you when people do not like your illogic and elect not to associate with your work.

so then if I do it for a reason other than mimicry, which sounds illogical, it is okay since the 'crusade' is mostly against those people? all I've been finding is that people are against the 'mimicry' that an artist chooses it for their own reasons or even clearly states 'not in an attempt to mimic, but to use ina way I feel best fits my piece' people still cry foul for little reason other than 'I spy mimicry!' or 'that is not the natural order of things!'

-2o

And it is not a style/format/principle/method etc. It is none of those things.

still haven't told me what wording you prefer

[Amentar]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

I took an elective on japanese and japanese culture

Ohh, an elective! Well, that makes you an expert, then.

Quote:

given 'overused' was the wrong term to use, I would hope that you would be able to understand that I meant that what english audiences get out of, or get to see from japanese culture is the right to left format.

Oookay, and how does that apply to what devilyoudont said?

Quote:

also, took a semester in logic - got high marks

Which clearly served you as well as your elective in Japanese and Japanese culture did.

Quote:

Do you really think that if an asian/japanese person posted in this thread 'doing a comic left to right' that they would be considered wanting to mimic english formats for the sake of mimicing?

Yes, if their reasoning was "that's what they do in America" or "after reading American comics, I came to like the left-to-right format."

Quote:

lastly, perhaps the reason why you've been getting 'dumb' answers is because you're not asking the right people, or the right question.

Or maybe it's because the dumb answer is the only one there is. I did ask you for examples to the contrary.

Quote:

Quite franky I love the style, and have such ever since I picked up my first manga. ... if it makes you feel better call me a weeaboo, although my favour for this style has nothing to do wtih japanese or foreign origins

So you admit you came to love right-to-left "style" only after reading manga, but you want us to believe that manga had no influence on your preferences??

Quote:

There was an article written by someone who wrote how even anime inspired cartoons find pronounced difficulty in being broadcasted or marketed to a japanese audience, and therefore not a lot of companies will work with an english based one to make content for japanese audiences. I imagine it would be the same reasoning for manga.

You really think Japanese people make right-to-left comics for other Japanese people for the same reason that American-created cartoons derivative of Japanese cartoons are hard to sell in Japan? Let me see if Google has anything to say about this. Okay, here is an example of actual Japanese reasoning. Someone asked a Q&A forum why there aren't Japanese comics nowadays with text going left to right. The answer with the highest rating was that it's less of a burden on the reader when the text matches the direction of the art. Fancy that!

[-2o]

[~Ramble.Corset~]

-2o

What exactly do you want me to do with your goal post moving? Am I really supposed to be able to prove that in some random hypothetical that other people would hold a double standard? They are irrelevant. The point is that the logic is bad in any case and citing that hypothetical as a "aha!" moment doesn't make sense.

I only need to suggest that something like a double standard among consumers and commenters could occur, you would need to prove it wouldn't. Devil's proof I guess?

-2o

it isn't an artistic choice. It literally has nothing to do with the art at all. There is nothing that is revelatory in using right to left that isn't present in left to right. It is not the same as doing a comic in a format in someway that is supposed to enhance the reading experience, because it is not meant to, it is just the way things naturally go with their language. That's it, that's all.

well no but it is an artist's choice. Some find it does enhance the reading experience, if you don't agree with them that's fine.

-2o

Of course stuff in left to right is not popular in japan. They do not read that way. Why in the world would you create something specifically for japanese consumption that reads against their languages reading order?

....for the same reason we create something for english consumption against their reading order? someone liked the format, or the idea of the format, and adapted it to suit their planning, writing, or artist style.

-2o

The purpose of that analogy is that an intelligent artist can separate the parts of a comic or manga or whatever, that were done intentionally

maybe it's just cause I do it intentionally, and not under the pretense of a rule, sorry I can't really comment much on that point

-2o

Just as a man might avoid pants that are too tight because of the specifics of his anatomy,

there are always exceptions.

I

-2o

f you make the decision to do it just because your counterpart did it, it is blind mimicry, it doesn't make sense and it is not evidence of a crusade against you when people do not like your illogic and elect not to associate with your work.

so then if I do it for a reason other than mimicry, which sounds illogical, it is okay since the 'crusade' is mostly against those people? all I've been finding is that people are against the 'mimicry' that an artist chooses it for their own reasons or even clearly states 'not in an attempt to mimic, but to use ina way I feel best fits my piece' people still cry foul for little reason other than 'I spy mimicry!' or 'that is not the natural order of things!'

-2o

And it is not a style/format/principle/method etc. It is none of those things.

still haven't told me what wording you prefer

Your argument is nonsensical. "Because some people would hold a double standard, your argument where you clearly hold no such thing is...?" Actually i'm not even sure what you are on about. That others would hold a double standard doesn't change the whole point, that is to say "There is no good reason to draw a comic against the reading order of your audience." It's stupid if an english speaker does it, it's stupid when a japanese person does it.

I'm going to drop my metaphor because you are either intentionally misunderstanding or you really do not get it. The presence of men who do not avoid tight pants does not affect my argument.

No it is not an artistic choice. Repeating so doesn't change that. So tell me, in simple and plain english because I must be sort of drunk, *one* thing, just one, that you can do with right to left that is not possible with left to right. It is a function of the direction they read in, and nothing else.

If you can trace a clear and logical progression why you made a major decision that affects the readability of your comic, then go ahead. My argument is that there is none. There is no logic in doing so that doesn't rely on a misunderstanding of the rationale behind why japanese artists do it. That is the reason. Tell me, just how purposely mangling reading order adds anything to a work. Be specific, cite examples.

As to the word I would prefer to describe what you are doing, I have told you "translation artifact". Cause that's what it is.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

the only comment worth replying to in the above post is that it was a likely co-incidence that my first exposure to the format was manga? I can't be blamed for that. It could have been a french comic or an english artist's way of doing things and if it it was a format style that was vast enough to accomodate for the scenes and ideas I wished to express I would still use it.

[[~Ramble.Corset~]]

alright I give up, I've had fun 'discussing' this matter with you, but I feel like we're just rehashing points. I have an opinion that it's an artistic choice, others have the opinion that it's a choice to mimic. I have the opinion there are exceptions to everything, and that doens't mean that everyone who follows that exception is doing it for the same reason, if you don't like their reasoning, well I guess don't read?
I don't have much more time to waste looking up essays and citing resources that I'm sure you'll just look down on anyway since they don't agree with your view.
If people want to go against the reading order and rules of comic and choose instead to follow the reading order and rules of manga, well they should feel free to do so for no other reason than 'they want to'.

People who took for too much logic in art wind up getting lost anyway.