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devilyoudont
[~Ramble.Corset~]
devilyoudont
There isn't any reason for doing it other than mimicking translated Japanese comics, so why is it too harsh to call it what it is?
an artist is allowed to use what they feel is a good idea to use as their page layout, whether or not it has been overused in another culture and thus considered 'mimicing'


Japanese people are not overusing this page layout, they have damn good reasons to do their comics that way. Incidentally, those reasons are the same reasons why an English language comic should be done left to right.

If you use this kind of page layout in an English comic, it is transparently mimicking Japanese comics. The comic may have other redeeming features, but that element is simply a form of cargo cultism. Hope this helps.


Amentar


I'm not sure if she actually meant that it was being over used in Japan,from the sounds of it I think she was talking about over here in America. Quite frankly though,since when has there ever been a right or wrong way to do art? If this is the case then who deemed the paintings that are quite literally splatters on a canvas 'art'. Yes,it's a translation key. Your aiming at an English speaking language,okay,cool. But where is it written that you as an artist can't make the decision on which to use? I find it insulting that people are actually being accused of being 'weeaboos' for using it. I don't honestly see it as mimicry,but even if it was,so what? Who is it actually hurting?

Also,I got to thinking it over and would like to formally retract my earlier statement that 'Manga' isn't actually a style. You can deny it all that you want,but yes,it honestly it. I understand that in Japan they don't have a choice to do it any other way because that's just how they do it,I get that,but here in America-land we have a choice. I don't see what the big deal is. You do your thing,they'll do theirs. I would've thought we can all coexist peacefully.
There is no wrong way to express yourself. However there are ineffective ways to communicate your ideas to others. So in a sense, if they want to share their work with others, they are hurting themselves.
The thing is, though, that there is no reason to do it outside of a desire to mimic manga. If you want to do that, that's more than your right, but you then cannot go back and act quizzical when others question your choice and decide to judge your comics based on that mimicry. It is your choice to do whatever with your comic, just as it is others not to take you seriously based on what they see as a bad decision. This isn't about America or freedom (and all of the internet is not American anyway) it's about having a logical train of thought for your decisions as the artist.

It isn't about who it hurts, it's about understanding how the choices you make as an artist affect your possible readership. I hate the stock "anime expressions", but I would understand if someone used them in a homage to manga. It wouldn't be a deal breaker. But copying a translation artifact, like skinny word balloons or right- to - left orientation? That's silly. You are not paying homage to a stylistic decision, you are mimicking the result of having to preserve the art while also not destroying reading order. They don't do it because they want to add flair. Using it as flair when it goes against the reading order of your audience just doesn't make sense. Do it if you want, just don't be surprised when people are hesitant to read your work.

"Manga" is not a style in the same way "comics" is not a style. Saying that it isn't is not a value judgement, it's just factual. I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.

I'm not touching your comment about "the wrong or right way to do art" with a ten foot pole. That never leads to anything productive.
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JungleYaoi
I'm not sure if she actually meant that it was being over used in Japan,from the sounds of it I think she was talking about over here in America. Quite frankly though,since when has there ever been a right or wrong way to do art? If this is the case then who deemed the paintings that are quite literally splatters on a canvas 'art'. Yes,it's a translation key. Your aiming at an English speaking language,okay,cool. But where is it written that you as an artist can't make the decision on which to use? I find it insulting that people are actually being accused of being 'weeaboos' for using it. I don't honestly see it as mimicry,but even if it was,so what? Who is it actually hurting?

Also,I got to thinking it over and would like to formally retract my earlier statement that 'Manga' isn't actually a style. You can deny it all that you want,but yes,it honestly it. I understand that in Japan they don't have a choice to do it any other way because that's just how they do it,I get that,but here in America-land we have a choice. I don't see what the big deal is. You do your thing,they'll do theirs. I would've thought we can all coexist peacefully.



Of course there is a right or wrong way to do art! Especially if you have a specific goal in mind. You most likely aren't going to run at comics the same way Jackson Pollock runs at a canvas because Pollock's goal isn't to tell a story in sequential art and his splat paintings wouldn't really make a decent comic...


The only time I'd call reading direction a stylistic choice is a comic that can be read both backwards and forwards (those are pretty cool) or maybe read ox-plow zig-zag.
-2o
The thing is, though, that there is no reason to do it outside of a desire to mimic manga. If you want to do that, that's more than your right, but you then cannot go back and act quizzical when others question your choice and decide to judge your comics based on that mimicry. It is your choice to do whatever with your comic, just as it is others not to take you seriously based on what they see as a bad decision. This isn't about America or freedom (and all of the internet is not American anyway) it's about having a logical train of thought for your decisions as the artist.

It isn't about who it hurts, it's about understanding how the choices you make as an artist affect your possible readership. I hate the stock "anime expressions", but I would understand if someone used them in a homage to manga. It wouldn't be a deal breaker. But copying a translation artifact, like skinny word balloons or right- to - left orientation? That's silly. You are not paying homage to a stylistic decision, you are mimicking the result of having to preserve the art while also not destroying reading order. They don't do it because they want to add flair. Using it as flair when it goes against the reading order of your audience just doesn't make sense. Do it if you want, just don't be surprised when people are hesitant to read your work.

"Manga" is not a style in the same way "comics" is not a style. Saying that it isn't is not a value judgement, it's just factual. I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.

I'm not touching your comment about "the wrong or right way to do art" with a ten foot pole. That never leads to anything productive.

I really wasn't trying to start any sort of argument. As someone who doesn't ever plan on using right-to-left even if I did start a comic,which I think I've stated more then enough throughout this thread,this was just a general comment. I just find it a little troublesome how many people have been knocked for using it. And yes,I do realize that Manga has more styles then just one,but I wasn't referring to the art itself,though I suppose that was poor wording on my part. sweatdrop

And again,my 'right or wrong way' comment,merely an observation that I thought should be thrown out there,not any sort of argument starter. I'd prefer to stay the neutral ground in all this. neutral
Kaxen
JungleYaoi
I'm not sure if she actually meant that it was being over used in Japan,from the sounds of it I think she was talking about over here in America. Quite frankly though,since when has there ever been a right or wrong way to do art? If this is the case then who deemed the paintings that are quite literally splatters on a canvas 'art'. Yes,it's a translation key. Your aiming at an English speaking language,okay,cool. But where is it written that you as an artist can't make the decision on which to use? I find it insulting that people are actually being accused of being 'weeaboos' for using it. I don't honestly see it as mimicry,but even if it was,so what? Who is it actually hurting?

Also,I got to thinking it over and would like to formally retract my earlier statement that 'Manga' isn't actually a style. You can deny it all that you want,but yes,it honestly it. I understand that in Japan they don't have a choice to do it any other way because that's just how they do it,I get that,but here in America-land we have a choice. I don't see what the big deal is. You do your thing,they'll do theirs. I would've thought we can all coexist peacefully.



Of course there is a right or wrong way to do art! Especially if you have a specific goal in mind. You most likely aren't going to run at comics the same way Jackson Pollock runs at a canvas because Pollock's goal isn't to tell a story in sequential art and his splat paintings wouldn't really make a decent comic...


The only time I'd call reading direction a stylistic choice is a comic that can be read both backwards and forwards (those are pretty cool) or maybe read ox-plow zig-zag.

That's not actually what I meant. XD

This is a bit off topic but;really?! I didn't even know they made ones that can be read frontwards and backwards. >w<
JungleYaoi
-2o
The thing is, though, that there is no reason to do it outside of a desire to mimic manga. If you want to do that, that's more than your right, but you then cannot go back and act quizzical when others question your choice and decide to judge your comics based on that mimicry. It is your choice to do whatever with your comic, just as it is others not to take you seriously based on what they see as a bad decision. This isn't about America or freedom (and all of the internet is not American anyway) it's about having a logical train of thought for your decisions as the artist.

It isn't about who it hurts, it's about understanding how the choices you make as an artist affect your possible readership. I hate the stock "anime expressions", but I would understand if someone used them in a homage to manga. It wouldn't be a deal breaker. But copying a translation artifact, like skinny word balloons or right- to - left orientation? That's silly. You are not paying homage to a stylistic decision, you are mimicking the result of having to preserve the art while also not destroying reading order. They don't do it because they want to add flair. Using it as flair when it goes against the reading order of your audience just doesn't make sense. Do it if you want, just don't be surprised when people are hesitant to read your work.

"Manga" is not a style in the same way "comics" is not a style. Saying that it isn't is not a value judgement, it's just factual. I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.

I'm not touching your comment about "the wrong or right way to do art" with a ten foot pole. That never leads to anything productive.

I really wasn't trying to start any sort of argument. As someone who doesn't ever plan on using right-to-left even if I did start a comic,which I think I've stated more then enough throughout this thread,this was just a general comment. I just find it a little troublesome how many people have been knocked for using it. And yes,I do realize that Manga has more styles then just one,but I wasn't referring to the art itself,though I suppose that was poor wording on my part. sweatdrop

And again,my 'right or wrong way' comment,merely an observation that I thought should be thrown out there,not any sort of argument starter. I'd prefer to stay the neutral ground in all this. neutral


There is "you" as in you the person, and general "you" which is a construct used to frame an assertion. I'm talking to hypothetical "you" in my previous post.

So what are you referring to when you say manga style?

It's not that there is some sort of argument, people can contest a point without it being one, there's no need to run for the hills.

You cannot make an assertion and claim yourself as a neutral party. You've already stated your position, and there is nothing wrong with that, just as long as you understand the outcome for an artist that decides on right to left for an english speaking audience. Feel free to support artists who do it, read their work and enjoy it. No one cares about taking that away from you. Just understand that it A) is nonsensical due to the reasons already outlined and B)going to make certain people avoid the work because it just looks careless.
[~Ramble.Corset~]
well like our 'manga' artists in english, the 'comic' artists in japan are entitled to use left to right if they choose, that doesn't mean they're trying to mimic and be english, so it doesn't mean we're trying to mimic and be japanese
Did you ever meet a non sequitur you didn't like? If a Japanese person adopted an American fashion and cited their reasoning as "that's how they do it in America," damn straight it would be mimicry. There's nothing wrong with mimicry itself, but it's a stupid justification for doing something a particular way when there are better alternatives.
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I didn't even know they made ones that can be read frontwards and backwards. >w<


It's usually just short comics that can pull it off.

Well, I'm pretty sure you could win greatest comic book artist forever to write a multivolume epic that can be read backwards and forwards...
JungleYaoi
I'm not sure if she actually meant that it was being over used in Japan...
Well, that's charitable of you, but she didn't try to correct me, so it's safe to assume she meant what she said.

Quote:
Quite frankly though,since when has there ever been a right or wrong way to do art?
Since forever. And anyway, comics aren't just art; they tell stories. Surely you don't think there is no wrong way to tell a story?

Quote:
I find it insulting that people are actually being accused of being 'weeaboos' for using it.
They're being called weeaboos for defending their choice to draw comics from right to left as "it's manga" or "that's how they do it in Japan." They're assuming the reading direction has something to do with "authenticity," that this "authenticity" matters, and that their English-language (or Spanish-language, etc.) creations become more "authentic" if they draw them right to left. In other words, their concerns are typical of weeaboos.

Quote:
Who is it actually hurting?
They're hurting themselves if they lose readers because they're more concerned with preserving some arbitrary notion of authenticity for something that's never going to be authentic rather than making their pages easier to read.

Quote:
I understand that in Japan they don't have a choice to do it any other way because that's just how they do it,I get that,but here in America-land we have a choice.
Japanese artists keep the pages going the same direction as the text because it's easier to read and they're not idiots, not because there's some rule that says they can't do otherwise. And you seem to be confused about the significance of choice. You could, if you wanted to, choose to punch yourself in the face with a brick instead of eating a muffin, but that wouldn't make it a good idea.

Quote:
You do your thing,they'll do theirs. I would've thought we can all coexist peacefully.
It's hard to coexist peacefully with people who deny active participation in arguments by claiming they were just tossing around observations. That's just a bullshit passive-aggressive way of putting the onus for avoiding arguments on people who would disagree with you while still getting to have your say.
-2o
I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.
Losing battle or not, that was very well said!
Amentar
JungleYaoi
I'm not sure if she actually meant that it was being over used in Japan...
Well, that's charitable of you, but she didn't try to correct me, so it's safe to assume she meant what she said./quote]I...didn't think you were serious o_o;;
Amentar
[~Ramble.Corset~]
well like our 'manga' artists in english, the 'comic' artists in japan are entitled to use left to right if they choose, that doesn't mean they're trying to mimic and be english, so it doesn't mean we're trying to mimic and be japanese
Did you ever meet a non sequitur you didn't like? If a Japanese person adopted an American fashion and cited their reasoning as "that's how they do it in America," damn straight it would be mimicry. There's nothing wrong with mimicry itself, but it's a stupid justification for doing something a particular way when there are better alternatives.
true but they would probably be seen to be more 'adapting' their style without as much negativity associated with the action. because of a few immature people and people who probably haven't analysed the 'why' other than 'that's the general rule of manga, right?' there's a negative stigma attached to english artists using japanese principles and methods
-2o
JungleYaoi
-2o
The thing is, though, that there is no reason to do it outside of a desire to mimic manga. If you want to do that, that's more than your right, but you then cannot go back and act quizzical when others question your choice and decide to judge your comics based on that mimicry. It is your choice to do whatever with your comic, just as it is others not to take you seriously based on what they see as a bad decision. This isn't about America or freedom (and all of the internet is not American anyway) it's about having a logical train of thought for your decisions as the artist.

It isn't about who it hurts, it's about understanding how the choices you make as an artist affect your possible readership. I hate the stock "anime expressions", but I would understand if someone used them in a homage to manga. It wouldn't be a deal breaker. But copying a translation artifact, like skinny word balloons or right- to - left orientation? That's silly. You are not paying homage to a stylistic decision, you are mimicking the result of having to preserve the art while also not destroying reading order. They don't do it because they want to add flair. Using it as flair when it goes against the reading order of your audience just doesn't make sense. Do it if you want, just don't be surprised when people are hesitant to read your work.

"Manga" is not a style in the same way "comics" is not a style. Saying that it isn't is not a value judgement, it's just factual. I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.

I'm not touching your comment about "the wrong or right way to do art" with a ten foot pole. That never leads to anything productive.

I really wasn't trying to start any sort of argument. As someone who doesn't ever plan on using right-to-left even if I did start a comic,which I think I've stated more then enough throughout this thread,this was just a general comment. I just find it a little troublesome how many people have been knocked for using it. And yes,I do realize that Manga has more styles then just one,but I wasn't referring to the art itself,though I suppose that was poor wording on my part. sweatdrop

And again,my 'right or wrong way' comment,merely an observation that I thought should be thrown out there,not any sort of argument starter. I'd prefer to stay the neutral ground in all this. neutral


There is "you" as in you the person, and general "you" which is a construct used to frame an assertion. I'm talking to hypothetical "you" in my previous post.

So what are you referring to when you say manga style?

It's not that there is some sort of argument, people can contest a point without it being one, there's no need to run for the hills.

You cannot make an assertion and claim yourself as a neutral party. You've already stated your position, and there is nothing wrong with that, just as long as you understand the outcome for an artist that decides on right to left for an english speaking audience. Feel free to support artists who do it, read their work and enjoy it. No one cares about taking that away from you. Just understand that it A) is nonsensical due to the reasons already outlined and B)going to make certain people avoid the work because it just looks careless.

Right,sorry,I don't know why I didn't notice that. XP

I just meant the whole right-to-left thing. Seemed quicker to just type manga style at the time so I went with it.

True,just hard to tell through text sometimes unfortunately.

Yes,I understand it quite well.
Amentar
-2o
I'm fighting a losing battle every time I explain this, but in order for manga to be a style in and of itself, their has to be some sort of universal traits, that are distinct to manga. There is no definition of a "manga style" that is general enough to cover it all while being specific enough to describe something uniquely present in manga. Manga is home to a whole host of different stylistic choices, some radically different from others and you do a disservice every time you lump them all together.
Losing battle or not, that was very well said!


Thanks for that, I wasn't sure if I was being clear.

[~Ramble.Corset~]

true but they would probably be seen to be more 'adapting' their style without as much negativity associated with the action. because of a few immature people and people who probably haven't analysed the 'why' other than 'that's the general rule of manga, right?' there's a negative stigma attached to english artists using japanese principles and methods


Maybe, maybe not. The point is, there is absolutely no 'why' that doesn't include a desire for some sort of japanese comic mimicry. Copying a translation artifact because you want to mimic japanese artists is not a factor of mimicking an actual stylistic choice in homage, because they aren't choosing to do that as a stylistic choice.

They are doing it because it screws up their art and warps reading order when you force the art to face in a direction opposite the one you initially had it. If you want to do it, godspeed. No one is busting into your house and burning your pages. But just don't be surprised when you aren't taken seriously, because it is not sensible in light of the fact that you wont be translating and your readers read in a direction opposite to the one you are using.

e: it's not a "principle" or a "method" is my point. It's a side effect from having a language that reads in the other direction.

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