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[~Ramble.Corset~]
if the other person feels anxiety and thus leads to searching for these features and whatnot that I mentioned earlier - which by the way people in this forum have done on numerous occasions - then it could be interpreted as either a compulsion or an obsession in response to the anxiety.

Well on the right to left vs left to right thread I had a stance, however the generation on this thread was to get people's opinion on an issue I was considering when doing my own OEL. thus since I don't know the evidence neither for nor against I don't have a particular stance on the issue. The comment of OCD was chosen as a particular, separate issue that was getting in the way of continuing to discuss the original post. As someone who has studied OCD I was merely offering my educated input on the behavioiurs of a select group of obsessive-compulsive like individuals who express the behaviours mentioned that the original poster of the 'OCD" label may have been referring to.


also big kids are able to talk to one another without bringing out the naughty words. That I have yet to start insulting you, your credentials, or the need for gaia to start asterixing me, and have merely stayed on point on the point of the thread may indicate here who's the bigger kid, and who's well...just the kid


If you studied anything on any level worth discussing, you'd know you can't diagnose over the internet, which is what you keep trying to do. Who said anything about people who do not like Japanese effects feeling anxiety? Being amused is not anxiety. Being mildly annoyed is not anxiety. You know how many more people would qualify as OCD, the way you play fast and loose with the definition? You are literally making things up whole cloth to support your uneducated, unsubstantiated opinions.

And before you pull that "lol u want me to cite scientific studies" crap you pulled before, no, all I would like is a clear logical progression between your points and where you are getting your information for your internet psychology. Show me some posts where, unrelated to the discussion - that is, the comic did not have the attribute in question and people brought it in anyway (because otherwise it is relevant and not seeking it out). I think you are full of it.

It wasn't getting in the way of anything until you responded to me. She said the comment, I said mine, and if you haven't notice me and her have not continued in that vein because nothing else needed to be said. If you hadn't felt the need to act as a translator for her post, the issue would have died right then and there. Apparently she did feel the need to respond back.

Additionally, you haven't addressed a single argument, you're still intellectually dishonest and it is laughable that you think cursing has a deciding vote on maturity in either direction. That you even asked the question in the first place spells bullshit for the whole neutrality angle and if you are not even going to pretend to contribute to this discussion, why bother posting at all?
Hoshimi Ritsuon
-2o

My goodness, stop being so butthurt about this, if Ramble doesn't want to explain herself and get involved in a discussion that is so far very stressful to deal with and plagued with insults, then I honestly completely understand, but it doesn't make her a coward. Get off your high horse, you're not 'brave' for shooting down anyone else's opinion than you own, calling it stupid amongst other things, if anything you're a coward for not being prepared to explore and expand on comics that don't fit your rules.

OCD: Obsessive Compulsive Disorder, lots of people have it to varying degrees, I had it that meant I have to carry around with me bottled drinks and cutlery else I can't eat or drink outside of my own home, even if that means I starve/dehydrate for a day, I have a friend who had the worst kind; he'd tear off his own skin if someone touched him, however accidentally.
But you know what? We got better. I can now eat with cutlery not my own, and if I have to, I will drink from a glass (if I have washed it myself beforehand). He no long tears into his own skin, but he still has to avoid touch else breakdown in tears, but he's getting there, and he'll get there in the end.


I described it as OCD because to just have to put down a comic however good and to have to instead mark it as 's**t', to feel the need to rant about it on a forum, throw insults and practically have a hissy fit about it, just because of some text you can't read, is obsessive and compulsive, and it really is a disorder.
The nice thing about a condition such as OCD?
You can get over it.
It might take time, it might take help, but you can recover from it and get better.
The first step is admitting you have a problem.

I don't want people who are either ridiculously a**l or OCD about it in the way I describe, who won't even admit they have a problem and take any steps to solving it, instead blaming the other party, to read my comics.
The OCD is not the problem, it's the attitude about it.

At any rate, I'm not sure why people attack with their conservative attitude so heavily.


No what makes her a coward is expressing an opinion and then when being called on that opinion claiming neutrality. If she doesn't want to get involved, then why assert anything?

Sorry, no it's still not OCD to simply not read a comic and respond to a topic that is actually about the subject. You cannot diagnose over the internet, no matter how desperately you want to lend your side credibility by claiming that people who don't want to read your comic (for reasons that have been adequately explained by multiple people in this thread) must have OCD. The things you describe do sound like OCD but since I am not a psychologist and know nothing about the people stated, I will not diagnose them. See how easy that is?

You have no evidence that *I* or anyone else here purposelessly seeks those comics out and says a goddamn thing. I never have. I simply don't care enough to. In fact, I believe i've expressed the opinion that you are welcome to do what you want, but it is not a sign of the close-mindedness of others when some people see what you are doing as a non starter.

There is no comic in the universe with universal appeal and a million different reasons why someone would refuse to read a comic, some making more logical sense than others. I for example, do not much care for historical pieces, and that is one of those less reasonable positions. In fact I bet if you sat down, you could think of something that just doesn't tickle your fancy, and evaluate it based on how much of it is personal and how much of it is logical.

I don't read most humor comics - personal because I don't find most things funny
I don't read heavy black and white comics - personal because I have a hard time with the contrast. but also logical because it affects my personal readibility.
I don't read comics that use translation artifacts - logical - it goes against my language and or reading order.

I don't seek out comics I dislike, but when I see them, I skip them. When i'm asked to read them for the purposes of a critique, I let the person know that they are going against the english language. That's far from all I do, and that's far from all this forum does when placed with that predicament.
denpa H-puff's avatar

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-2o

You can throw a point into a discussion without taking part in that discussion, and you are entitled to claim neutrality when not expressing/standing up for your own opinion.
If two people are having an interesting conversation in front of me, I might be tempted myself to raise a point with them, to see what their individual opinions and reactions are, without myself needed to join in with that, rather just to observe.

I never said you go out of your way to find comics in order to then get angsty about them, but we had been talking in the context of you picking up an OEL manga that was in fact very good, and then some way through there is a sound effect in Japanese, you claimed you would put the book down, and that you would have serious doubts about the creator.
To me, not being able to continue reading a comic you enjoyed up to that point, just because of one bit you couldn't read, that doesn't effect the storyline anyway, is compulsive, and the way you continue to insist that it's their fault and not yours, and continue to insult the people whose views are not your own, calling them stupid and cowardly, etc., is obsessive.
No, I am not saying you have OCD, I am not trying to diagnose you over the internet.
But I am suggesting that you have a problem that you'd rather pin on everyone else but yourself.

Refusing to enjoy something because of something that frankly is not as important as you think it is, is not a good thing, not even really a healthy thing.
The fact that you "don't find most things funny" kinda confirms my point.
Lighten up, loosen up, enjoy yourself more.
Or not, your choice, but don't expect us to agree with you, and don't expect a warm response when you degrade us with your words just because we don't.
Hoshimi Ritsuon
-2o

You can throw a point into a discussion without taking part in that discussion, and you are entitled to claim neutrality when not expressing/standing up for your own opinion.
If two people are having an interesting conversation in front of me, I might be tempted myself to raise a point with them, to see what their individual opinions and reactions are, without myself needed to join in with that, rather just to observe.

I never said you go out of your way to find comics in order to then get angsty about them, but we had been talking in the context of you picking up an OEL manga that was in fact very good, and then some way through there is a sound effect in Japanese, you claimed you would put the book down, and that you would have serious doubts about the creator.
To me, not being able to continue reading a comic you enjoyed up to that point, just because of one bit you couldn't read, that doesn't effect the storyline anyway, is compulsive, and the way you continue to insist that it's their fault and not yours, and continue to insult the people whose views are not your own, calling them stupid and cowardly, etc., is obsessive.
No, I am not saying you have OCD, I am not trying to diagnose you over the internet.
But I am suggesting that you have a problem that you'd rather pin on everyone else but yourself.

Refusing to enjoy something because of something that frankly is not as important as you think it is, is not a good thing, not even really a healthy thing.
The fact that you "don't find most things funny" kinda confirms my point.
Lighten up, loosen up, enjoy yourself more.
Or not, your choice, but don't expect us to agree with you, and don't expect a warm response when you degrade us with your words just because we don't.


I could not possibly care less about your warmth. My comment was in response to Ramble Corset's strawman argument and the idea that anything here has constituted as obsessive, and I should have said that, you got me there.

Who is talking about refusing to enjoy anything? If I were reading a comic and I didn't know before hand that the japanese effects were there and I was enjoying it up into that point, I probably wouldn't put it down, that's silly and also something I never expressed. However, if I know going in, that the author makes frequent use of those elements, I am not going to read it. There are literally hundreds of thousands of comics out there - I am not depriving myself of anything. If anything, the fact that you are really trying to create a personality flaw out of avoiding a subset of comics ( not actively looking out or mocking, not seeking them out to be upset, but actual ignoring) means you need to lighten up and take this less seriously. Also, calling your decision to do it anyway is not the same as calling you stupid. I believe the phrase was "stupid things for stupid reasons"

At any rate, assuming that this was super important to my everyday life, that doesn't actually affect the merits of my position in either direction. It also doesn't make the fact that it is against the language of your audience any less true. If you want to do it besides that, I don't think it needs saying that that is your prerogative. I believe you are intelligent enough to know that it's alienating to some people (even other manga fans like myself) to see it, and if you decide to do it anyway, you have to be prepared to lose readers. I'm not going to rehash the same points about communication and the like, but just know hereabouts is where I would have inserted them.

You are trying to prescribe a mental illness to a group of people of which you know nothing about. You can be obsessed without OCD and it is not appropriate to describe any seemingly obsessive behavior as OCD, especially when said behavior doesn't fit. Which was my only point on the OCD front in the first place.

Lastly, if you throw in a point, then you should be able to back it up, if you cannot or won't, that too is your prerogative, but you don't get to claim neutrality, which is a statement of disinterest. you also don't get to act surprised when people ask you to back it up, either.
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-2o

Who is talking about refusing to enjoy anything? If I were reading a comic and I didn't know before hand that the japanese effects were there and I was enjoying it up into that point, I probably wouldn't put it down, that's silly and also something I never expressed.

I'm glad you say so, sorry if I misinterpreted your words, but not putting it down at that point seems much more sane to me.
In the same sense, I can now better appreciate what you mean by not picking it up in the first place. To be fair I wouldn't pick up a comic that was written by someone in a badly made naruto cosplay shouting things like "kawaii desu" at me, and if it were given to me to read and I found that it was good, I'd admit I was wrong, but I'd stand by my judgement.
It's that term "don't read a book by it's cover", where if the author is sat there also, they're like a cover also. I think the term is well meaning but flawed, if everything else tells you the comic is probably going to be bad, you'd likely just move on, as you said, there is plenty else out there to read.
Again, sorry for misunderstanding you, I see where you're coming from and agree (though not on the specific reasons).

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If anything, the fact that you are really trying to create a personality flaw out of avoiding a subset of comics ... means you need to lighten up and take this less seriously.

Yeah, maybe I need to lighten up, but I don't feel that I'm trying to create a personality flaw either. I think a person who instantly ends their own potential enjoyment of something because of a hang up like that has a personality flaw. I'm not trying to create it, I think there already is one there. But since you've cleared up that you aren't like that, fair enough.
I do think anyone who is though needs to chill out about it, and at least take your approach to it.

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At any rate, assuming that this was super important to my everyday life, that doesn't actually affect the merits of my position in either direction.

Same. I'd say I've learnt and explored more of the 'other side of the fence' on this, as it were, but I also stand by my position.
Which is fine, we can both go on our merry way, there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm glad we could have this discussion.
emotion_c8
Hoshimi Ritsuon
-2o

Who is talking about refusing to enjoy anything? If I were reading a comic and I didn't know before hand that the japanese effects were there and I was enjoying it up into that point, I probably wouldn't put it down, that's silly and also something I never expressed.

I'm glad you say so, sorry if I misinterpreted your words, but not putting it down at that point seems much more sane to me.
In the same sense, I can now better appreciate what you mean by not picking it up in the first place. To be fair I wouldn't pick up a comic that was written by someone in a badly made naruto cosplay shouting things like "kawaii desu" at me, and if it were given to me to read and I found that it was good, I'd admit I was wrong, but I'd stand by my judgement.
It's that term "don't read a book by it's cover", where if the author is sat there also, they're like a cover also. I think the term is well meaning but flawed, if everything else tells you the comic is probably going to be bad, you'd likely just move on, as you said, there is plenty else out there to read.
Again, sorry for misunderstanding you, I see where you're coming from and agree (though not on the specific reasons).

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If anything, the fact that you are really trying to create a personality flaw out of avoiding a subset of comics ... means you need to lighten up and take this less seriously.

Yeah, maybe I need to lighten up, but I don't feel that I'm trying to create a personality flaw either. I think a person who instantly ends their own potential enjoyment of something because of a hang up like that has a personality flaw. I'm not trying to create it, I think there already is one there. But since you've cleared up that you aren't like that, fair enough.
I do think anyone who is though needs to chill out about it, and at least take your approach to it.

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At any rate, assuming that this was super important to my everyday life, that doesn't actually affect the merits of my position in either direction.

Same. I'd say I've learnt and explored more of the 'other side of the fence' on this, as it were, but I also stand by my position.
Which is fine, we can both go on our merry way, there's nothing wrong with that.
I'm glad we could have this discussion.
emotion_c8


If you understand the bolded, then I have no quarrel with you. I am not saying that there is literally no good comic that uses the sound effects, only that I wouldn't know. If a comic i'm already enjoying does it, I won't be thrilled, but i'll live with it.

It's all part of the mental calculus we do. There is a limited amount of leisure time that any one person has, and far more comics than can be possible to read, especially in light of the fact that comics are rarely the only thing people do with their leisure time. So any time checking out a comic is an investment, which forces you to make judgements based on sets of criteria. I don't think everyone is as formal with it as I am, but that's not the point.

The point is, certain traits will be common of a particular type of comic, and if you know you don't like that type, you tend to avoid all of the members of that type, even if there is one comic you may enjoy out of the bunch. I think it's rarer that people would drop in your situation than you might think, absent the other indicators of a certain type of shitty comic
Hoshimi Ritsuon
This isn't meant to be an argument, it's meant to be a discussion,...
Discussions about real things inevitably involve argumentation when people disagree. Simple fact of life. If you want happy-happy "civil" conversations only, then it's on you to never assert anything in contradiction of what others are saying. You don't get to say wrong things or call others out for being wrong and then shut down any response to that by insisting everyone must be "nice." And if you find it rude to be called out for making stuff up, then either don't do that or defend your position better. (Complaining about arguments is also a bit disingenuous when you go on to argue for 900 more words in this post alone.)

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Also, you never made it clear you were restricting your claims to the portion of the manga industry that is directed towards otaku.
No, because I didn't realise I was, hence I began saying that our perspectives must be different.
What? How does that even happen? Know what you're talking about before you go off making assertions.

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I don't think they're meant to simply be thrown away in the short term... But I think the most important factor is still for the contents to be of a high standard. Yes s**t sells in Japan, s**t sells anywhere, but s**t doesn't last long enough for the volumes...
This, right here, is why we can't "both be right." If you're right and manga is not considered disposable then you need to find a better explanation for the distribution methods, the paper quality choices, the way magazines are targeted at narrow demographics that people grow out of in a few years, the production volume, etc. All these things are consistent with what I'm saying. And I'm a little baffled by how you could insist that crap doesn't make it to collected volumes. Are your standards so low that you can't see the terrible art and storytelling that's everywhere or you are forming this opinion on an unrepresentative sample of manga (or both)? The laughably terrible art in Skip Beat comes to mind immediately, as well as nearly anything published in Cheese! magazine.

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I don't think it relates to postage stamp collecting because stamps already serve their purpose for making money by paying for the service of delivery... With the context of manga, 'collectors' are the ones who splash out on all the merchandise, which as we both said, is where a big bundle of money is made. Those collectors are the Otaku... This is of course still excluding the case of targeting at children.
And manga serve their purpose by being widely read by people who treat them as disposable entertainment. You don't get to pretend that those buying merchandise are necessarily collectors and you don't get to exclude merchandising aimed at children. That's where most of the effort goes because it brings a decent return. Catering to otaku? Not so much. There is money to be made from otaku, yes, but their existence is a minor influence at best on the hows and whys of manga publishing.

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It's nothing to do with "manga" and everything to do with the poor marketing decisions of the OEL publishers. Manga is popular enough amongst a general audience these days that better marketing would move more OEL.
Does that extend outside publishing? ... Would you say [some people avoiding self-published OEL] is because of the decisions of OEL publishers? I'd suggest it's because of the image of weeaboo in everyone's minds...
The more parsimonious explanation is that these people are avoiding manga period. There are people who just simply don't like the style of Japanese comics, no matter who's drawing it (though they'll often make exceptions for something like Akira or Ghost in the Shell). My point about the publishers is that if it's really the case that only Western otaku pick up an OEL manga, then publishers have failed in making those titles known to other audiences. You say yourself "I don't think most readers...tend to distinguish between OEL and 'ordinary' manga." I agree, but it's important to remember that, for the most part, those readers aren't Western otaku.

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I don't know why American comics seem to fail more in this country, and why manga is so darn popular with teenagers...
Well, manga is less prudish, it's got more of an element of exoticism, and each title is self-contained. I have a friend who collects American comics (here in America) and she keeps buying more and more titles because you have to do that to get all the backstories for the current events and to keep up with the crossovers. I dunno how things are in the UK, but the mainstream American comics are like a ******** metastatic cancer bent on eating your paycheck.

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I may be wrong, but the need for otaku to hide their interests from society...
Uh, I think you're not quite up on how Japanese society works or where the contempt for otaku comes from. Everyone shields their interests from the eyes of society; to do otherwise would be an imposition. (Ever bought a book in Japan? Chances are the cashier tried to give you a cover for it.) Interests are shared on an intimate scale--amongst friends, family, club members, internet communities, etc. Otaku are otaku mainly because they fail at maintaining connections beyond the smaller groups that share their interests. They're scorned for causing a breakdown in the social structure around them.

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What I will take from this is: within otaku culture, books are bought to collect, outside of that culture the same books are bought to entertain that day's commute.
Would that be right?
Though I imagine anyone would be tempted to keep/collect a series they very much like and are attached to, otaku or not, I think this doesn't happen so often though.
Close enough. There are magazines aimed more at otaku and ones aimed more at other demographics, like housewives or businessmen or sports fans, so it's not necessarily the case that an otaku will be reading the same magazine as an average person. And I acknowledged from the start that people do have favorite series and will often buy the collected version of that. I had a friend for a while who adored and collected Chibi Maruko-chan, but whose real passion was Japanese literature. She was in no way out of the ordinary.
Hoshimi Ritsuon
I described it as OCD because to just have to put down a comic however good and to have to instead mark it as 's**t', to feel the need to rant about it on a forum, throw insults and practically have a hissy fit about it, just because of some text you can't read, is obsessive and compulsive, and it really is a disorder.
Stop trying to pathologize normal behavior. People who refuse to read a comic that they feel will be a waste of time based on a highly visible and obviously silly decision of the artist's are not mentally ill and they don't have a problem.

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Yeah, maybe I need to lighten up, but I don't feel that I'm trying to create a personality flaw either.
Well, that's exactly what you're doing in the quote just above this.
[~Ramble.Corset~]
...I'm only acting as mediator to make sure the discussion is kept as civil as possible...
I'm not terribly "civil" because most of what people consider civility is just an issue of superficial tone. Real civility includes not reinforcing prejudice towards other people--such as those who have OCD--by turning what they are or what they live with into a cheap pejorative. (Another example: "That's so gay!") Which you're here defending over and over rather than condemning, thus showing you sure as hell ain't on the side of civility.
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Amentar
Discussions about real things inevitably involve argumentation when people disagree. Simple fact of life.
...And if you find it rude to be called out for making stuff up, then either don't do that or defend your position better.
Disagreeing doesn't inevitably involve argument. Agreeing to disagree when things start to head in that negative direction is much more civil.
Being called out "I feel that you're either making this up or are severely misinformed, as this evidence contradicts your point" is a million miles apart from "you're basically making s**t up", which, aside from being very rude, was a flawed accusation in the first place.
To be honest, I thought you may well have been making your points baselessly also, as I know I'm not lying, and as you put it "we can't both be right". I'm not about to decide and accuse you of lying though, I might try to prove you wrong with facts, but to accuse you of lying would just be nasty and rude. I thought about it, and it hence occurred to me that we are simply speaking from different backgrounds. Yet more of a case that arguing is pointless.

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...you need to find a better explanation for the distribution methods, the paper quality choices, the way magazines are targeted at narrow demographics that people grow out of in a few years, the production volume, etc.
...And I'm a little baffled by how you could insist that crap doesn't make it to collected volumes.

I did say the paper quality choice is for cheapness.
In the case of the magazines, yes they're disposable, because they are in no way portable. They're huge, so you want to get rid of them easily.
But in the case of the volumes, I'd say they're not purposed for immediate disposability. People may do it, but that's not their purpose as such. They're for people already fans of the series to buy (re-read value), they cost more for the consumer to buy than the magazine for content, you'd have to wait until the chapters had aired in the magazine to buy them, the only people who'll buy them for a train journey are those who decided they don't want to continue reading that magazine, but do want to continue reading that series (such as the generation of adults who grew up reading One Piece, they likely don't want to sit there with a copy of Jump but may be continuing to read the series, in which case the individual volume will suffice).
The magazines targeted at narrow demographics tend to feature the series that don't go on for over 20 volumes, the majority of series don't go anywhere near that length, so someone can enter that target demographic and start a new series from chapter one, and leave it at the end of the final chapter, or long after it.

I never said that s**t doesn't get made into collected volumes, you even quoted me and managed to misread it.
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..but s**t doesn't last long enough for the volumes ... to be successful, or does if said s**t happens to hit a very good niche.

Now I've never read it, I weight a lot on the art work, so I wouldn't go for it in the first place, but clearly it's successful, so I would say the plot is either very good, or a very good example of a standard shoujo plot such that it appears to young teenage girls who in some years time will look back and wonder why they read it. I'd say it's hit a good niche with that market, as with 'Cheese!'.
I should also point out that the art quality is still miles better than most of the OEL manga I've ever seen, so it's not utter crap.

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You don't get to pretend that those buying merchandise are necessarily collectors and you don't get to exclude merchandising aimed at children. That's where most of the effort goes because it brings a decent return. Catering to otaku? Not so much. There is money to be made from otaku, yes, but their existence is a minor influence at best on the hows and whys of manga publishing.

You do like to tell me what I "don't get" to do, don't you? I do get to exclude children because we aren't talking about children, we're talking about adults, aren't we? I still mentioned them there anyway, the collectors are the Otaku and the Children, very very few other people would buy merchandise relating to a manga.

Let's look at the facts here: A lot of significant manga creators started making doujinshi, their market being otaku, and for themselves to lovingly create fan works, they also were otaku. Those creators did not all then go on to create works for otaku.
According to a survey of over 10,000 people 25% would be considered "otaku", this is seen as the development of "light otaku", people whose interests in it are not 'hardcore'.
The otaku market value is around 187 billion yen (this number is from 2007, I did have a more recent value but I can't find it right now).
It's the otaku market that the majority of non-child targeted anime publishers target, leading to profits, more merchandise, and yet more profits.
It's influence is certainly not minor.

Here's some more facts for you:
Even when you take the most popular manga magazine, Shounen Jump, it's issues actually sell at a loss. They want people to buy the individual volumes, for the anime to be made, and for the merchandise to be bought, and the best part? They're successful with their target demographic, young people, and also with otaku. They have both the markets likeliest to buy the merchandise.
Individual volumes generate profit in the first instance because they take minimal effort to produce (all the editing is done already), and they cost as much as a volume of the magazine.

The percentage of adults who read manga magazines is high (around 45%), but the percentage who read individual volumes regularly (those making profit for the publishers, and more likely to buy merchandise) drops to 35%, and if you take out "25% are otaku" then that leaves 10% of adults.
That suggests that only 10% of adults regularly read and support the manga industry.
This is of course assuming that all otaku read manga, which is not true, but it's not a huge amount that wouldn't at all. Certainly most would read a volume in a month.

Another interesting point is that in the case of children's manga specifically, though evidently in other age areas also, number of new people getting into a series in the first place is going down, because reportedly the stories are getting too complicated to simply pick up and read not from the start without getting confused and likely dropping the series very soon after. This is a point against people picking them up for a while and dropping them again at will 'like soap opera' as a standard, because more and more manga just aren't like that.
I'll agree there are magazines specifically for that, though.

Here are my references:
http://www.geocities.jp/laugh_man_is/tokubetu5.htm
http://matt-thorn.com/wordpress/?p=261
http://www.yanoresearch.com/press/pdf/863.pdf
http://www.inside-games.jp/article/2007/12/18/25855.html
http://www.cyzo.com/2007/09/post_40.html

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...it's important to remember that, for the most part, those readers aren't Western otaku.

Yeah, I strongly agree with this, unfortunately I dropped the term 'western otaku' down to what the majority of western manga fans unfortunately believe is the case. True 'western otaku' are harder to come by.

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I dunno how things are in the UK, but the mainstream American comics are like a ******** metastatic cancer bent on eating your paycheck.

I think you're probably right. I'm not sure there's any easy way to get a regular issue of an American comic, or even a manga volume, but at least you can easily by the entire series of one in a book store, the same can't be said for the huge number of issues in American comics.

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...Everyone shields their interests from the eyes of society; to do otherwise would be an imposition. (Ever bought a book in Japan? Chances are the cashier tried to give you a cover for it.)
...Otaku are otaku mainly because they fail at maintaining connections beyond the smaller groups that share their interests. They're scorned for causing a breakdown in the social structure around them.

Yeah I know everyone hides their interests, and I have been given plenty of book covers, but I also know that otaku in particular have a bad label for, as you say, the breakdown in social structure they cause, so I know 'normal Japanese society' would rather not be even thought of as such, I was suggesting that one would rather someone see text in their hands if they happened to look, than panels.
This theory is baseless though, I've only my own observation and what I've been told to go by, no hard facts, so I won't push this further.

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I had a friend for a while who adored and collected Chibi Maruko-chan, but whose real passion was Japanese literature. She was in no way out of the ordinary.

She certainly isn't, but she only owns that items from that one series, so she's only given profit to that one series, which is more what I expect than her to be continually buying volumes and merchandise from multiple series, unless she was a child or teen.
Amentar
[~Ramble.Corset~]
...I'm only acting as mediator to make sure the discussion is kept as civil as possible...
I'm not terribly "civil" because most of what people consider civility is just an issue of superficial tone. Real civility includes not reinforcing prejudice towards other people--such as those who have OCD--by turning what they are or what they live with into a cheap pejorative. (Another example: "That's so gay!") Which you're here defending over and over rather than condemning, thus showing you sure as hell ain't on the side of civility.
I am not defending the use of 'OCD' as a cheap pejorative, rather trying to highlight the behaviours select individuals have that the original user of this phrase in this thread may have been referring to.
-2o

If you studied anything on any level worth discussing, you'd know you can't diagnose over the internet, which is what you keep trying to do.
No, I cannot diagnose someonw with OCD. Hence why I said they were OCD like in their behaviour, and that some behaviours they display could be considered obsessive or compulsive. Everyone has obsessions and compulsions, as I mentioned in my previous post, and it is those types of behaviours that the original poster may have been referring to

-2o
Who said anything about people who do not like Japanese effects feeling anxiety? Being amused is not anxiety.
Obviously what I am trying to say is not getting through here. The obsession for some to seek out this exact problem just to either cause drama or bash that particular issue can be linked back to anxiety, say if the person was needing to procrastinate from school work and they knew browsing for comics to shallowly criticize always helped.

-2o
I think you are full of it.
Some threads I have posted in have this issue, others I haven't bothered to because of it. Since I am trying to become an educated person I don't have time to go dumpster diving for old threads.

-2o
Apparently she did feel the need to respond back.
if you feel the need to respond to it, it is a point, however minor, you wish to defend back to the original poster. Having tried to explain what perhaps this person may have meant, and not as a means to offend those with OCD was the original intention.

-2o
Additionally, you haven't addressed a single argument, you're still intellectually dishonest and it is laughable that you think cursing has a deciding vote on maturity in either direction. That you even asked the question in the first place spells bullshit for the whole neutrality angle and if you are not even going to pretend to contribute to this discussion, why bother posting at all?
Because I am reading what others are posting. My stance is that while english sound effects are good so are japanese, so in order to determine how other people felt about them, and thus hopefully influence my view on which I should use in the future, I made this thread. That you're somehow unable to accept that as a way of generating an enemy to argue against, and that you do it in such a childish manner, reduces what you have to say. I don't care what education you have on the issue, I can take everything over the internet with a grade of salt, but you further degrade yourself and what you have to say when you cannot communicate like a proper adult
Hoshimi Ritsuon
Disagreeing doesn't inevitably involve argument. Agreeing to disagree when things start to head in that negative direction is much more civil.
Maybe your idea of a good discussion is wanking off to your own opinions while others around you do the same to theirs, but I don't find any value in that. You want to "agree to disagree"? Then take it upon yourself to shut the ******** up instead of continuing to engage. You want "civil"? Then bring that to the conversation instead of going off on how people must have mental disorders for exhibiting normal behavior you happen to disapprove of.

Quote:
Being called out "I feel that you're either making this up or are severely misinformed, as this evidence contradicts your point" is a million miles apart from "you're basically making s**t up", which, aside from being very rude, was a flawed accusation in the first place.
No qualitative difference there. I'm not here to make you feel good about being wrong by softening the message.

Quote:
I'm not about to decide and accuse you of lying though, I might try to prove you wrong with facts... I thought about it, and it hence occurred to me that we are simply speaking from different backgrounds.
I accused you of making things up. Which is what people do when they try to speak authoritatively about things they don't know enough about. I don't think you're being deliberately deceptive (though it does make me wonder when you claim you didn't realize you were talking about otaku in particular). Facts are what you should have been relying on from the start. And I'm not about to assume we're both right but "speaking from different backgrounds"; I find that sort of "solution" to a disagreement utterly patronizing.

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In the case of the magazines, yes they're disposable, because they are in no way portable. ... But in the case of the volumes, I'd say they're not purposed for immediate disposability.
While the mags are usually a bit bulky, they're quite light compared to a fashion magazine or a tech mag or the like. There are a bunch of literature mags that are about the size of the smaller format manga mags, too. So, yes, they're portable. As for collected volumes, I never said they were made to be immediately disposable. Obviously they're designed to be kept around for a while, but they're still printed on bad paper that goes yellow in a few years and have sloppy binding (by Japanese standards). Hence why really popular series get re-released in deluxe or bunko format.

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The magazines targeted at narrow demographics tend to feature the series that don't go on for over 20 volumes...
lolwut? With the possible exception of Jump, all magazines are aimed at a narrow demographic, be it by age or interest.

Quote:
I never said that s**t doesn't get made into collected volumes, you even quoted me and managed to misread it.
You're right, I misread it, but you're still wrong. You said, "But I think the most important factor is still for the contents to be of a high standard." The majority of manga, even popular ones, are highly deficient in a number of ways. It's the nature of a medium where, rather than worrying overmuch about standards, artists are kept producing at top speed and aren't given time to unlearn bad habits. Success is rarely a matter of hitting a good niche, it's a matter of doing a good enough job of generating cheap, disposable entertainment.* (Do keep in mind that entertainment has to be entertaining. "Redeeming qualities" or whatever you might try to bring up again are a given.)

Quote:
I should also point out that the art quality is still miles better than most of the OEL manga I've ever seen, so it's not utter crap.
Most of the OEL manga I've seen have better art than what you'd find in Cheese!, but I'm not counting s**t by total amateurs. I will say there's a certain aura of polish that even the crappiest Japanese title has but it's not because the art itself is better, it's because Japanese artists have assistants.

Quote:
You do like to tell me what I "don't get" to do, don't you? I do get to exclude children because we aren't talking about children, we're talking about adults, aren't we?
No, we're talking about the manga industry and manga as a cultural phenomenon. Except when you suddenly change your mind and say you're talking about the otaku-oriented subsection of it. You don't get to argue against what I'm saying about manga in general by leaving out whatever's inconvenient to your point.

Quote:
[Otaku] influence is certainly not minor.
Talking about how other industries cater to the otaku market doesn't say a thing about how the manga market as a whole is handled. But consider the doujinshi market for a moment. Compare that to the section of the general manga market that targets otaku. Now, is the latter more like the former or is the latter more like the rest of the general manga market? It's more like rest of the general market, which indicates otaku are a minor influence.

Quote:
Here's some more facts for you:
Which support my point. Whatever you can bring up about manga publishers making money by moving a title into other media or into merchandising can't change manga's purpose. Is it perhaps so hard for you to understand because you are having an emotional reaction to the statement that manga are meant to be cheap and disposable? That you don't think they should be, and therefore Japanese people couldn't possibly intended them that way? It's hard to tell the source of your objection when you still haven't proposed an alternative purpose for manga based on the facts of how it's published.

Quote:
Individual volumes generate profit in the first instance because they take minimal effort to produce (all the editing is done already), and they cost as much as a volume of the magazine.
I think you may have made too much of what I said about collected volumes not being what publishers pin their hopes on for making money. It's obvious they expect to make some profit, but the collected volumes aren't a good investment compared to the other things I mentioned. Not the least because there are still huge numbers of very poor quality comics published as collections.

Quote:
...she only owns that items from that one series, so she's only given profit to that one series, which is more what I expect than her to be continually buying volumes and merchandise from multiple series, unless she was a child or teen.
The anecdote about my friend was illustrating my disagreement with your claim that it "doesn't happen so often" that "anyone would be tempted to keep/collect a series they very much like and are attached to." Now you're contradicting yourself and shifting the goalposts into whether or not an average person like my friend would buy merchandise? WTF? (Also, you're the one who tried to exclude children before; it's inconsistent for you to bring them up when you feel it suits you.)

----
*As a complete aside, this is one of the reasons it pains me to see aspiring OEL artists work so damn hard at mimicking every aspect of Japanese comics. Part of the characteristic look and feel of manga--such as page after page with minimal backgrounds, art-free panels of dialog, overuse of chibi-forms and symbols like the anger mark or the sweatdrop, and inconsistent stories with nonsensical endings--comes from the ridiculously brutal constraints of the Japanese production and publication model. More OEL artists should be putting back into manga what gets left out due to those constraints.
[~Ramble.Corset~]
I am not defending the use of 'OCD' as a cheap pejorative, rather trying to highlight the behaviours select individuals have that the original user of this phrase in this thread may have been referring to.
You're defending the original user's use. The original user used it as a cheap pejorative. Therefore, you're defending its use as a cheap pejorative. Q.E.D.

(But then, I don't expect anything less than utter dishonesty from you.)
Amentar
[~Ramble.Corset~]
I am not defending the use of 'OCD' as a cheap pejorative, rather trying to highlight the behaviours select individuals have that the original user of this phrase in this thread may have been referring to.
You're defending the original user's use. The original user used it as a cheap pejorative. Therefore, you're defending its use as a cheap pejorative. Q.E.D.

(But then, I don't expect anything less than utter dishonesty from you.)
Wait so because you feel the original user used it as a perjorative and I came up with an alternative form of interpretation it means I was using it as a perjorative? Geez throughout this thread your methods of arguing or defending a point have been miserable examples. May have been very good points, but your method undermines what you're saying.

Also, I don't see how anything I could have done could be considered 'dishonest' except that I'm a relatively anonomous person on the internet. I'd ask you to enlighten me but considering your attitude your opinion wouldn't be worth much anyway

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