[discuss] Idea block

[Rabbit_L]

I have this specific issue when it comes to comic-creating:
the plot itself.
I am the type who always comes up with the imageries, the symbolisms and some snapshots of possible events instead of being able to sort out a fully coherent plot.

I do understand that most cannot come up with a fluent idea in a short amount of time.
To clarify the issue/question, I came up with the characters first, with their respective surroundings established. While each has their own backstory, the characters seem to be over-flown in characterizations AND empty in the same time because they lack a purpose.

Plot vs. characterization vise: obviously most of my story-shaping time has been dedicated to the latter and the symbolism in their respective role, but I don't want my story to become a fully introspective, muddy soul-searching story full of academic easter-eggs.

I notice that I have some very narrow criteria in term of genre-choosing:
I definitively prefer characterization over plot device, deep and realistic character analysis, mind-screw, etc.

Those preferences thus set up my vision in a place beyond my current skills. Indeed, everyone has to start off small, yet I am unaware of how small should I go.

To clarify, I am relatively inexperienced in term of comic-making.

So yeah questions:

1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?
2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?
3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?

[harukaze poppu]

1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?
By just doing it. You force yourself out of these blocks.

2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?
Again, by forcing it. If you want to grow as an artist, you MUST step out of your comfort zone, period. Force yourself to do it if you have to.

3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?
If I can't draw something, I go out of my way to learn it and I don't stop trying until I do it right. I worked my a** off for a solid 15 years so that I could someday draw my own comics, and I absolutely do not regret waiting. I had "friends" making fun of me because I never seemed to start drawing my projects but I didn't care, I knew I wasn't ready. I'm ready now, and I'm going to blow them away with my comic.

[-2o]

As someone who also is of the variety that forgets plots in favor of other elements, I say stop ******** around. Stop loosely playing at it, thinking it will take form without your interference. Character interactions are important. Development is important, but what is just as vital is giving your characters some arena to play in. Sit down and do nothing but plot.

[WitchanGurl]

Rabbit_L

So yeah questions:

1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?

I just jot down the images of events in my heads, try to put them in some form of order and tehn work out how to get from one to the other. This happens very rarely for me because I think cronologically, but it does now and then. I just keep plugging ahead through any blocks that come along while also working on other projects. If I get stuck on a plot point I'll sketch my characters some more and get used to drawing them in different poses and with different expressions. If it's the characters I'm stuck with I'll work on the plot and character interactions

Rabbit_L

2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?

If I'm trying to work in a new genre I use reference pictures and try to read other webcomics in those genres. I also read and watch tv programs and films in those areas too. It's about immersing yourself in the genre, learning the cliches and stereotypes and trying to avoid them if I can. I tend to do this while working on my project. Sketching scenes or quick images of that genre also help. If you're going outside your comfort zone I suggest just going for it. Don't worry about getting it wrong or it looking odd, that's the way it is.

Rabbit_L

3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?

You can't just leap in and expect to instantly know how to draw or write something. It's about progress and improvement over time. I will try my best to produce something that I like and the improvement will come with time. You might not notice it right away but it's there. If I don't know something I'll try to learn about it and practice applying it to my writing and art.

[Foxgirl_Kira]

I have the same problem. I love characters and how round they can be. Back story is what I look forward to in every story. With the comic I am trying to do I had my characters first as well. I had a tough time making a whole plot, but I did by using the character's back stories.

I had four characters with very different back stories and personalities. I had already figured out how their relationship would be with one another but that was it. From there I went to what kind of setting would accommodate each character and formed one around all of them. Though I already had a villain in mind so that also helps with the plot. After that I had to figure out why those particular set of very different people would ever come together. That could help with plot or back story.

Since my story had a villain already I gave him something to long for, then I had to figure out how he could get that from the main characters. So that would be the bare min plot then add to my hearts content all the plot twists and situations I want to take place while the main character search for something of their own.

This is how I did it but if you don't want a plot with a defined bad guy or anything like that you might have to process it differently.

[Kupocake]

Here's what I suggest: stop thinking about all that symbolism. Jot down the imagery in your mind, and then forget about it. Put it away. It's distracting you from what's really important about story: who wants what, and why can't they have it? I've worked with writers who get so caught up in the details and the worldbuilding-aspect of their story that they can't even come up with a coherent plot. Start with a character that has a coherent goal, and figure out how they're trying to obtain it, and what's keeping them from having it.

You know what you want, and chances are that your preference for certain genres will affect how you write, so don't be afraid to just start writing.

With that said, here's my answer to your questions.
1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?
Just draw and write. A lot of people don't actually have "idea blocks," they just look at a blank piece of paper and don't know what to do. See it more as a canvas for ideas, no matter how stupid. It's easier to start with something (and edit it later) than to start from absolutely nothing.

2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?
Research and practice. I had to work on a horror story with a group when I absolutely *despise* the horror genre. So, I spent a good 2 weeks just looking up horror clips and what makes people scared. I had to figure out why people even liked horror to start with. Since the project had a deadline, I had to figure out things on the go. You learn so much more by actually doing the project than sitting around meditating on principles.

Same goes with any sort of practice, really. Bad at drawing hands? Stop looking at tutorials and start drawing them.

3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?
First off, I try not to look at anything as a dream project. When you label a project like that, you become daunted by your task, which usually leads to not being able to produce anything.

However, I'm a firm believer in starting off with at least a decent understanding of art and storycrafting basics. Comicmaking is a beast of an art form, and it demands a lot more than just writing words and drawing pictures. Often, artists who devote all their time and energy to drawing comics neglect practicing important art basics such as anatomy, perspective, and so on. If you have these things under your belt, you can start tackling the other stuff unique to comics, such as paneling, sequential pacing, comic composition, and so on.

It's like absolute beginners using Photoshop as their first tool. They have to worry about all the basics of art and tackle a huge learning curve due to the program itself.

So basically: get your skill level to the point where you can draw anything out of your imagination comfortably. As for writing, get your storycrafting abilities to the point where if someone handed you a prompt or logline, you can weave out a decent story just from that.

[Kaxen]

I'm a bit of a "miss the forest for the trees" type too when I get really obsessive with my characters and then get all "Oh right! Plot! ...THESE PEOPLE FIGHT ALL THE TIME! WHY IS THERE NO PLOT?! burning_eyes " Bleargh... I also give my characters vague goals that they never have a concrete plan for achieving. Hoping to rectify that with two shorts I'm writing where the character in question want something more specific instead of meandering around.

1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?
I think you should just write everything that comes to mind down. Once you sort it all out, then you can actually decide if it comes off the right way and once you start linking those cool scenes you want to do together, you can decide how cohesive it is as a whole.

2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?
Lose your sense of shame and just do it. You're gonna c**k-up your first attempts at something new, so you might as well get all the c**k-ups out of the way!

3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?
I put down one comic because I just didn't draw the planes well enough for the best visual clarity. I'm not always satisfied with the drawings and the writing in my comics, but I'm not going to get any better by not doing it.

[Rabbit_L]

Seeing all the replies so far, I think it's not risky to conclude that everyone tend to think plot and characterizations as two separate things.

I am now thinking of the possibility of using characterizations and characters' doing as the main driven force of the plot; and I don't really get the feedbacks that characterizations are often the "small missing parts" of the big image called the plot.

I guess it all comes down to the nature vs nurture thing.

I think each person's procedure with plot development also varies with their way of thinking, for instance Kupocake (I squee a little seeing your reply) , I would think you as being very chronological and sequential.

What about people who think of the big picture first? Or people trying to think that way but are missing some pieces of the puzzle?

Because a thought just occurred to me that, while the chronological thinkers tend to elaborate a plot that comes like a ray with present and future sequences, a plot that is based on a big picture is really just elaborating on the small details that the roles in the story have yet to discover, like present digging in to the past sort of analogy.

But after the picture is complete, what will happen to it then?

Also Kaxen, thanks for the advice, because my thoughts are everywhere X<

[-2o]

They aren't completely separate things. But if all you have is a bunch of characters and a high minded concept, you need to ground yourself a little and introduce our lovely friend "plot". Mind you, you don't have to be doing a plot that is incredibly specific or complex if the character interactions/themes are at the forefront of your thinking.

A plot can be as simple as "Four friends move to a big city from a small town, looking for things they could never get back home. Will there friendship survive, or will they be pulled apart by the directions their lives are going?" Pretty simple premise, pretty simple plot.

Now this example is pretty cheesy but let's say your idea is to explore the nature of friendship and the affects on people when there environment changes. Let's also say, you are exploring the idea of alienation in the city and how more people doesn't necessarily mean togetherness and all that.

You have Sarah, a quiet mousy girl who left the small town because she always felt restricted, going to a university for art, somewhat naive, but ready to face the new locale, etc etc You have a scene in mind where she gets robbed in clear view of other people and no one helps her, one where
she goes back to visit the old town and feels some nostalgia and one where she sees someone else robbed and does nothing about it

Bob who saw how miserable his dad was running the local shop and didn't want to go into the family business, so he started a band out in the city. He is mistrustful and angry and somewhat immature so you have a scene where he blows up at the other three because they all are employed and they make a mention of needing him to contribute to the rent, one where he gets his first gig, yadda yadda.

Without going into detail about the other two,because it isn't necessary to my point, you know have your ideas, your plot, and your characters within the plot. Then from here, you get down to the events that occur.

Chapter one, they move in, they talk to neighbors, neighbors seem weirded out. They order out and pal around. Chapter two: BoB dos X, Y and Z, etc. etc.
Ending:Some of the friend group splits, Bob moves back home, they are all a little older and wiser. All that good stuff.

The point is, the themes and ideas are the big umbrella. "These are the themes I am going to explore."

Underneath that umbrella, you have the overarching plot (which as in my example, is not divorced from the characterization, but brings structure to it) "This is the story I am going to use to explore those ideas." AND "these characters are going to move this story"

The stuff called plot, is the glue holding your characters and your themes together. In order to tell a coherent story, it's got to be there to provide the basis of your character's interaction

What you need to do is pretty much what Kupocake said. Write down your big ideas. Then move on for the time being. It doesn't mean you look at plot as a separate entity, only that you sit down and refine your idea, and turn it into something concrete.

Usually when someone says a project is "overambitious" it is because it is a collection of poorly refined ideas, scenes and characters without narrative coherency. It's the same sort of nonsense that has people claim they have 100 chapter epics without ever writing a single page. It's very easy to let things balloon out of control, and get vague. Your plot doesn't have to be strictly linear or standard in it's telling. It doesn't even need to be terribly complex. But it does have to exist in some capacity, as the back-bone to your story.

[Kupocake]

It took me some time to figure out what you meant by "chronological thinking," since I hardly call myself a chronological person (if it weren't for my adamance to write every little thing down, I would have a mess of a story to deal with), but I think I might have a vague idea now.

Do you mean chronological/sequential as in I build up my story, from a small idea to completion? And by "big picture" thinking, do you mean someone who comes up with an overarching idea, world building and the like, but then has to fill in the gaps by fitting in a story?

I suppose if you put it like that, I am a "chronological" thinker, along with many screenwriters and storyboard artists out there. I feel like it's easier to work off a solid logline rather than spend a few years working out the environment and not knowing how to weave story from that. But world building was never my strong point.

But I do start with characters, regardless. Almost every story I've made started off with interesting characters and characterizations, and then I started thinking of the kind of trouble they might run into. So, if you want to know my line of thinking: Characters > Goals > Story Idea > Beginning/Ending > Story Details. Hardly chronological, but it's how I operate.

[Lady Ravenway]

Here is some general advice to writing but, I'm not pro so take it lightly. Most of this is what my workshop from my last semester drummed into my head.

Characters are like people. They have needs. A story is about what the character is willing to do to get to/fix said need. Look at your characters pasts, what drove their actions? Needs drive actions. Otherwise all characters would just sit around and do nothing, they wouldn't have any motivation to do anything.

For plots, I think when I'm stuck on a plot but, I overall love my characters I really start to focus on each characters back story. It doesn't have to be long or complicated but, their history is going to help define their "need" and motivations through the story and thus their behavior and actions. So it's essential to really see what was driving their past actions. Did they achieve everything or do they still have some things to do that might be worth adding to or using as the overall plot for your story?

Also it might help to draw it out. I love to outline my stories. Stuff changes and I take things out but, overall I think it helps give me a sense of, this story is going from A to Z. As my instructor just said today though, sometimes you don't have to make it to Z. Sometimes the real story is from A to B and sometimes it's from A to E. So...you don't always have to stick with the plan.

Anyway, I think the best way to get ideas for a story for me is to just start writing. When I start a story I always have a lot that I want to accomplish right off the bat(okay not always...). Sometimes I just think about ideas while laying in bed or while I'm walking or on the bus. Listening to music while you do this can help but, it can also influence the story so be careful and make sure you're writing something because it should be in the story and not just because it works for the sound track.

1. Trapped in idea blocks, how artists get themselves out of there to actually produce something?
Well, I answer this one for myself above. Just lots of patience with myself, going through the characters profiles. Sometimes drawing stuff and listening to music helps. Reading also helps since sometimes I get an idea because I find something I like about another book. Particular aspects about a story I want to play around with. Just have fun?

2. How can/do artists work in an area out of their own comfort zone?
Haha, my first thought was take a workshop! I've been so out of my comfort zone this semester since I'm only allowed to write realism for my workshop. I hate realism...we do exercises and short stories and get tons of peer critique and critique from the instructor. I know it's helped my overall writing and also shown me that I can step outside of my comfort zone. Because you don't really have a choice(well you do but, no one wants an F right?). If a workshop isn't an option then just try writing things you wouldn't have considered before. If you always write in one genre, try another. Give yourself a form. My instructor is always telling us that while we usually view rules as a bad thing, sometimes it can really help our writing. So tell yourself you're going to write a five page story about a little girl who gets to go to the carnival. You can just give yourself prompts, themes. One of ours was write a twenty-six sentence story and the first letter of every sentence had to be in alphabetical order...it was horrible chaos but I did it. So try doing stuff like that.

3. For the over-achievers: without the proper skills to start your dream project, are you willing to step down to produce something lesser in quality, or you are always doing your best?
I guess right now I want to write my first book. A story that I wouldn't really mind and would actually love for people to read...but, I wouldn't say that proper skills is so much the issue as just not knowing what I want to write. I always thought I had to wait until I was perfect to start writing something publishable but, if I waited that long then I'd be waiting forever. I'm never going to be perfect. I'll never see myself the way I see my idols so, I'll use what I've got and go with it. I don't consider that lowering my standards though. I just consider it being realistic. I remember this quote on pinterest, it's for exercise but it kind of applies here to. "If you wait for the perfect conditions, you'll never get anywhere". I think that applies to writing...but, you have to be comfortable with yourself. Five years ago I'd wouldn't have let anyone see my work but, now I share it when I can...so just go for it!

Sorry for writing a novel....haha. sweatdrop

[keiiii]

Kaxen

"Oh right! Plot! ...THESE PEOPLE FIGHT ALL THE TIME! WHY IS THERE NO PLOT?! burning_eyes "

How can you not have a plot when there's no shortage of conflicts? @_@

[Kaxen]

keiiii

Kaxen

"Oh right! Plot! ...THESE PEOPLE FIGHT ALL THE TIME! WHY IS THERE NO PLOT?! burning_eyes "

How can you not have a plot when there's no shortage of conflicts? @_@

The conflicts don't really build up or lead to anything. It's always incredibly meandering towards a place I'm not sure of. I think it took some time just to decide what the point of the chapter The Good Boy Aurus was, and I'm still not sure it's clear there is a point... There's a point in there... somewhere... sweatdrop

[keiiii]

Kaxen

keiiii

Kaxen

"Oh right! Plot! ...THESE PEOPLE FIGHT ALL THE TIME! WHY IS THERE NO PLOT?! burning_eyes "

How can you not have a plot when there's no shortage of conflicts? @_@

The conflicts don't really build up or lead to anything. It's always incredibly meandering towards a place I'm not sure of. I think it took some time just to decide what the point of the chapter The Good Boy Aurus was, and I'm still not sure it's clear there is a point... There's a point in there... somewhere... sweatdrop

Could that possibly mean the characters are simply better suited for a series of short stories rather than one long story?

[Niiwa]

My response to #3:
http://www.zefrank.com/theshow/archives/2006/07/071106.html

NOW GET OUT OF MY GORRAM SUBFORUM RABBIT