Comic plot: looking for a critique

[Marty Nozz]

So I'm retooling a lot of things nowadays, and of course I'd have an idea when I need to be focusing on other things. That said I'm throwing this out there, looking to get some feedback, and then I'm going to make some proper notes and let it marinate until I'm ready to move forward with it.

Title: "Last Heroes"

Premise

The apocalypse hits, four of them actually. The dead rise. A renegade AI triggers a robot uprising. What seems to be Atlantis rises up out of the Atlantic Ocean complete with a cranky Elder God and a bunch of nasty minions. And finally an massive fleet of alien space crafts surround the Earth and promptly vaporize San Francisco. This all happens inside of 24 hours which leads the president to curl up into the fetal position and soil himself with near ballistic force. But all is not lost as some radical contingency plans are quickly executed giving humanity a fighting chance. The odds improve for good ol' Earth as the four apocalypses end up practically tripping over each other attempting to wipe us out.

Story

This will focus on a small group of heroes who are engaging in search and rescue missions, protecting those they have saved and trying to keep the planet in one piece. It'll be fairly decompressed as I intend to chart the a lot of ground in around 100 pages. It'll begin with the everything hitting the fan and by the end of the story years will have passed.

Cast

The main cast will be limited to those working the missions trying to protect humanity. There's six main characters.

Milly: She's a scientist who saw all of this coming, but no one believed her, mostly due to her being a child genius. She used that genius to acquire the funding to to prepare for the impending doom. While her plans work beautifully and her intelligence is without question, she had been so preoccupied with her plans and saving the world that she never really had a life. She's in her late 20s, but still incredibly socially awkward.

Alice: A soldier who was wounded badly early in the fighting. Milly saved her using bionic and cybernetic technology. She serves as the field leader for the team. Alice is very professional and very competent. She is very devoted to the mission but also to her team. Alice possesses an excellent tactical ability and falls into the position of leader quite naturally.

Grady: Grady was a monster hunter and occult expert before everything went to crap. He had experience in dealing with the minions and followers of the Atlantean Elder God. He relies on talismans, spells and weapons to get the job done. He had a very dry humor and often seems unflappable. This is due to him spending his entire life dealing with horrible things.

Sam: He was a super villain before the multi-apocalypse. He's very self serving and steps up mainly because its in his best interest to do so. He possesses animal like abilities including heightened strength, speed and healing. He is also an excellent tracker.

Ruth: She was one of the premier super heroes and one of the few who didn't go down fighting. She's very powerful and a fierce combatant. She comes across rather aloof at times but at heart is a very caring person. She kept many people at a distance emotionally for fear that her enemies would use her relationships against her, so she has trouble developing friendships with her comrades.

Trevor: He's the youngest of the cast in his late teens. The aliens had abducted him and experimented on him for years. They managed to unlock his brain's full potential making him very powerful, but the abuse he endured left him very frail. He can't use his abilities for too long without becoming exhausted. Trevor suffers from post-traumatic stress from his ordeal, but does his best to cope.

* * * *

I think this could be a fun "popcorn" type of project. I think it's got some legs to it, but I could be wrong. So I thought I'd throw it on out here for some opinions. Fire away.

[Zee Coldwater]

This is too much.

Four doomsday scenarios at once pushes the limits of believability and turns the story ludicrous, no matter how well-executed. You're piling on things without thinking of the internal logic of the world -- as a rule of thumb, you only get one "gimme" in speculative fiction. Your gimme is your impossible thing. Magic, technology capable of FTL travel and AI, super-advanced alien invaders, etc. Two gimmes is possible -- magic-created FTL travel or something -- but it's precarious.

You have four gimmes -- two supernatural and two scifi. You can't have it both ways. You can't have Elder Gods and aliens and zombies and Atlantis and AI expect it all to make sense somehow. Not without some very solid and very thorough world-building, which I see no sign of in this pitch. You can't just slap supernatural elements on our world and call it good. It needs internal logic.

I don't think "decompressed" means what you think it means, incidentally. "Decompressed" is taking longer, not taking shorter.

Now, moving on to characters ... frankly, there's a lot of cliché, assumptions and fakery. Oh and supervillains, which necessiates superheroes. That brings your gimme tally to five.

Why is everyone in the team so young? Why are they lugging around a teenager, no matter how powerful and useful, especially considering that he's mentally ill? Is it because that's how it's done? That isn't good enough.

I don't see much interesting or compelling in the characters, as pitched, since all you told me is what they do and one or two personality traits. Nothing about what they want, very little about how they got tangled up in the plot.

Look, I'll be honest. This could, with some modification, work as a very campy pulp homage. But even then, it'd be too much and you'd end up breaking immersion eventually. It's just ... not gripping. It's like you're piling in all the cool and interesting things you can think of, without thinking about what makes them cool and interesting. That's not how it's done.

Oh and it being a "popcorn" project is no excuse. Even dumb popcorn movies should have internal logic, else they're not popcorn movies but garbage. "It's just a dumb action flick" is the plague of blockbusters everywhere and poison to action movies. Don't be the guy to fall for it and perpetuate it.

[Ebert_Coredor]

What, no vampires fighting werewolves or ninjas and pirates? Couldn't quite squeeze in every single cliche ever?

Your characters are by far the weakest part of your story, if one can even call it a story. Child geniuses are by their very nature far less compelling characters than actual experienced scientists who behave and think like people who have actually lived an adult life. Your character's just a nerdy girl cliche taken to its worst possible extreme.

A cyborg soldier. I'm just surprised it's not a black cigar-smoking marine named "Sarge".

I like Dr. Strange and Wolverine there, real original characters.

Ruth is a "premier superhero" but you don't mention any of her powers, motivations or anything except that she has "trouble making friends". Really? You're gonna tell a post-apocalyptic adventure story with character traits best fitted for Degrassi?

Trevor is just boring, in fact, I can barely finish my... zzz


I don't see why this story needs superheroes or supervillains, and I say this as someone who enjoys the cape genre. You've just put a bunch of boring cliche characters in the wackiest situation you could think of. Is there even a reason for all these things to happen at the same time? Who exactly put together this "team" of mismatched do-gooders anyway? How come such a team is even considered as a solution in the first place?

You've thought none of this through. This plot is barely fit to be the zany intro of a no-dialogue indie platform shooter game.

[Marty Nozz]

Tovarish Groznaya

Look, I'll be honest. This could, with some modification, work as a very campy pulp homage. But even then, it'd be too much and you'd end up breaking immersion eventually. It's just ... not gripping. It's like you're piling in all the cool and interesting things you can think of, without thinking about what makes them cool and interesting. That's not how it's done.

Oh and it being a "popcorn" project is no excuse. Even dumb popcorn movies should have internal logic, else they're not popcorn movies but garbage. "It's just a dumb action flick" is the plague of blockbusters everywhere and poison to action movies. Don't be the guy to fall for it and perpetuate it.

The bolded part is really what I'm going for. The entire situation is completely ludicrous and not to be taken seriously. We've got some apocalypse fluff coming our way the the whole 2012 Mayan stupidity and that got me thinking of apocalypse scenarios and I find most of them amusing but ultimately silly. So I'm using this a a kinda apocalypse "dump" and trying to figure out how I can blame it all on Wendy Williams. So yes, it's going to be pretty silly, and suspension of disbelief is going to be called upon on a ridiculous level.

As for character ages, Trevor is the youngest by far. Aside from Milly the rest of the cast are going to be in their 30s. The character info I provided is really the barest of bare bones. I could go into more detail if you'd like.

I did indeed misused "decompressed", which is a lesson for all. Be careful about posting in the middle of the night when you should be sleeping. I meant "compressed".

Much obliged for the input.

[Marty Nozz]

Ebert_Coredor

I like Dr. Strange and Wolverine there, real original characters.

Yeah, not so much. Grady is like Doctor Strange only in that he deals in the supernatural and the occult. He no where near as powerful as a Doctor Strange type character. As for Sam being like Wolverine, that's pretty much like saying any character with any type of animal type abilities is a "Wolverine type" which if you want to call it that fine, but I wouldn't call Buddy Baker a Wolverine type.

[Zee Coldwater]

If you're honestly going for the campy, pulpy feel, you still need internal logic, which I'm not seeing much of here. You'll also need to amp up the ridiculousness, because right now it's not ridiculous enough to be a clear pulp homage/parody.

Pulp was, incidentally, a lot more understated than you think.

[Saraneth 6th Bell]

I find the competing Apocalypse thing funny, just as long as it's something that's meant to be full of facepalm moments and humour and not actually serious. I'm a little unsure of the protect humanity mission thing, though. I could just see people almost being able to carry on unnoticed, since everything would be fighting everything else. Humans would be the least of the invaders' worries, so I'm not sure if a team on separate missions or whatever would work as a focus.

And while you say this is meant to be a parody sort of thing, I think the idea of it is so epic in proportion with everything you'll need to figure out to make it work that it needs years of planning to make it have the logic and cohesion for it to be good. Suspension of disbelief requires enough logic and sense and good writing to make the four apocalypses funny and not just... holyshit terrible.


Any posters/covers/pin-ups for this would have to have utterly epic digitally painted work. I can practically picture them. x_x

[Kersian]

Marty Nozz

So I'm retooling a lot of things nowadays, and of course I'd have an idea when I need to be focusing on other things. That said I'm throwing this out there, looking to get some feedback, and then I'm going to make some proper notes and let it marinate until I'm ready to move forward with it.

Title: "Last Heroes"

Premise

The apocalypse hits, four of them actually. The dead rise. A renegade AI triggers a robot uprising. What seems to be Atlantis rises up out of the Atlantic Ocean complete with a cranky Elder God and a bunch of nasty minions. And finally an massive fleet of alien space crafts surround the Earth and promptly vaporize San Francisco. This all happens inside of 24 hours which leads the president to curl up into the fetal position and soil himself with near ballistic force. But all is not lost as some radical contingency plans are quickly executed giving humanity a fighting chance. The odds improve for good ol' Earth as the four apocalypses end up practically tripping over each other attempting to wipe us out.

Story

This will focus on a small group of heroes who are engaging in search and rescue missions, protecting those they have saved and trying to keep the planet in one piece. It'll be fairly decompressed as I intend to chart the a lot of ground in around 100 pages. It'll begin with the everything hitting the fan and by the end of the story years will have passed.

Cast

The main cast will be limited to those working the missions trying to protect humanity. There's six main characters.

Milly: She's a scientist who saw all of this coming, but no one believed her, mostly due to her being a child genius. She used that genius to acquire the funding to to prepare for the impending doom. While her plans work beautifully and her intelligence is without question, she had been so preoccupied with her plans and saving the world that she never really had a life. She's in her late 20s, but still incredibly socially awkward.

Alice: A soldier who was wounded badly early in the fighting. Milly saved her using bionic and cybernetic technology. She serves as the field leader for the team. Alice is very professional and very competent. She is very devoted to the mission but also to her team. Alice possesses an excellent tactical ability and falls into the position of leader quite naturally.

Grady: Grady was a monster hunter and occult expert before everything went to crap. He had experience in dealing with the minions and followers of the Atlantean Elder God. He relies on talismans, spells and weapons to get the job done. He had a very dry humor and often seems unflappable. This is due to him spending his entire life dealing with horrible things.

Sam: He was a super villain before the multi-apocalypse. He's very self serving and steps up mainly because its in his best interest to do so. He possesses animal like abilities including heightened strength, speed and healing. He is also an excellent tracker.

Ruth: She was one of the premier super heroes and one of the few who didn't go down fighting. She's very powerful and a fierce combatant. She comes across rather aloof at times but at heart is a very caring person. She kept many people at a distance emotionally for fear that her enemies would use her relationships against her, so she has trouble developing friendships with her comrades.

Trevor: He's the youngest of the cast in his late teens. The aliens had abducted him and experimented on him for years. They managed to unlock his brain's full potential making him very powerful, but the abuse he endured left him very frail. He can't use his abilities for too long without becoming exhausted. Trevor suffers from post-traumatic stress from his ordeal, but does his best to cope.

* * * *

I think this could be a fun "popcorn" type of project. I think it's got some legs to it, but I could be wrong. So I thought I'd throw it on out here for some opinions. Fire away.

Um okay Im going to try to point out all the problems.

First yes, you cannot have a whole bunch of creatures, aliens, Gods, etc, whatever, be freaking rampaging the Earth. Thats just ridiculous, it sounds boring really. Robots vs aliens vs Gods vs Zombies. Wow epic. You have to really make up your mind about these things. You could do seperate ones for each.

Um your characters lack well any personality. They sound unreal. And young. Why not there in a 40 year old man in there? They could use more work, and to not be so cliche.

[Gnarly The Dolphin]

I don't think your characters are entirely bad. I think they have some potential, actually. You do have some cliche factors going on for some of them. For example, Milly and Trevor are some I thought were a bit cliche. Though that doesn't mean you have to discard them! You just have to work with them. I am sure you just have the frame for your character but now its time to add on. :3

Its good to have diversity in your group, especially when it comes to saving the world. I think that's why a lot of people are saying there should be an older and experienced man within that group. It makes sense if you think about it. However I was thinking your character Grady would fit that category. I might be wrong. xD

Its also good to create some conflicts between some characters. Its also a good idea to provide a more detailed and more original back story to evoke emotions from the reader.

Its hard trying to be original, I know! I think you just need to go back and work on your plot and spiffy up your characters. I think you should work on that before creating your comic.

I have faith in you. Good luck! n__n

[KayJKay]

Questions:

1. How long do you believe this story is going to be? This sounds along the lines of Armageddon or Volcano. Insanely long.

2. Are you going to attempt a style change from your current comic? I think it would help you expand your design vocabulary, and learn a few new things.

Honestly Marty, from the last post where you wanted to know how to be a better comic artist/why you weren't breaking even til this one... I want to give you a piece of advice: Do short stories. Do a lot of them. Doing longer stories where you're involved with the work for a year or more isn't going to make you a better artist. Short stories will build you up to that. Short stories allow you to focus for a short time, rather than wonder when the end will be near. They allow you to explore all those genres in this plot. And refine the humor for something like this.

[Snicket]

I think it has potential, as long as you're pushing the ridiculousness factor. I like the idea of four different apocalypse scenarios tripping over each other like too many cooks in a kitchen, and I'd be interested in hearing how you'd pull that off. I think that and good characterization are what would make this worth reading.

I do see cliches here, but cliches can be useful. If you use them to communicate story information and get everyone reading your story on the same page (metaphorically) in an efficient manner but at the same time don't use them as a writing crutch, they can be very effective. For examples, Tim Burton does this in his more successful movies, such as Mars Attacks! and Edward Scissorhands. But that does take a good amount of skill and self-awareness to pull off.

I'm going to echo the advice about doing more short stories before you embark on something like this, though. You could always do self-contained stories with similar themes or character backstory to the big thing you want to do, to hone your craft. Going into something like this before you're ready runs the risks of 1) the story collapsing into a complete mess and 2) you frustrating yourself and stagnating your creative development. Just try to honestly consider your skill level before you start on this project.

[Marty Nozz]

KayJKay

1. How long do you believe this story is going to be? This sounds along the lines of Armageddon or Volcano. Insanely long.

Haven't read either of those. I'm not planning on going into a massive, taking years to complete, lifework kinda thing. It would pretty much be the equivalent of an average graphic novel.

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2. Are you going to attempt a style change from your current comic? I think it would help you expand your design vocabulary, and learn a few new things.

That's part of the reason I want to do it. Gives me a little side project to try to take myself in a different direction in terms of narrative and design.

Quote:

Honestly Marty, from the last post where you wanted to know how to be a better comic artist/why you weren't breaking even til this one... I want to give you a piece of advice: Do short stories. Do a lot of them. Doing longer stories where you're involved with the work for a year or more isn't going to make you a better artist. Short stories will build you up to that. Short stories allow you to focus for a short time, rather than wonder when the end will be near. They allow you to explore all those genres in this plot. And refine the humor for something like this.

That's something I was really considering doing with this, and your advise here makes me think its really the way to go, is telling this in small installments like 2 to 5 pages. First installment give us our set up and the following giving little stories that don't get super involved or complicated, but still move inch the overall story along. This way I can do a small installment, get it online somewhere and take a step back to gets some feed back and examine it for things I did right or wrong, then move on, hopefully a bit wiser. I'm hoping to use this as a fun and hopefully entertaining learning tool for myself.

[Marty Nozz]

Kersian

First yes, you cannot have a whole bunch of creatures, aliens, Gods, etc, whatever, be freaking rampaging the Earth. Thats just ridiculous, it sounds boring really. Robots vs aliens vs Gods vs Zombies. Wow epic. You have to really make up your mind about these things. You could do seperate ones for each.

Nah, we're gonna do the monster mash. And sure I can have creatures, aliens, Gods, etc. rampaging the Earth. Marvel and DC have been doing it for years. Snark aside, the superhero sub-genre is where a feel comfortable so I'm toying with it, and that sub-genre does contain all of the elements I'm dealing with coexisting.

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Um your characters lack well any personality. They sound unreal. And young. Why not there in a 40 year old man in there? They could use more work, and to not be so cliche.

Again, Trevor is the exception in terms of age. The majority of the remaining cast is well into there 30s. Milly is nearly 30 herself and she's the youngest next to Trevor. Also, as I posted before, these were very bare bones character write-ups and I'm going to be fleshing them out at a later time.

[Marty Nozz]

Tovarish Groznaya

If you're honestly going for the campy, pulpy feel, you still need internal logic, which I'm not seeing much of here. You'll also need to amp up the ridiculousness, because right now it's not ridiculous enough to be a clear pulp homage/parody.

Rest assured, I'll be working the whole thing through before I even think about laying out page 1. I've got some notes already on how to tie everything together. But I'm also considering not having them related at all and they just got set off by a common event. There's a few options I'm toying with. I am taking your thoughts seriously and thank you for them.

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Pulp was, incidentally, a lot more understated than you think.

It really was. While I'm certain a camp value will be very high, giving it that true pulp feel may not be possible, but I'm going to give it a shot and see how it turns out.

[Marty Nozz]

Snicket

I think it has potential, as long as you're pushing the ridiculousness factor. I like the idea of four different apocalypse scenarios tripping over each other like too many cooks in a kitchen, and I'd be interested in hearing how you'd pull that off. I think that and good characterization are what would make this worth reading.

I've scribbled down a few thoughts. A lot has to do with the separate apocalypses having their own turf. The robots and Elder God minions totally need a West Side Story bit.

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I do see cliches here, but cliches can be useful. If you use them to communicate story information and get everyone reading your story on the same page (metaphorically) in an efficient manner but at the same time don't use them as a writing crutch, they can be very effective. For examples, Tim Burton does this in his more successful movies, such as Mars Attacks! and Edward Scissorhands. But that does take a good amount of skill and self-awareness to pull off.

I'm up on the majority of the conventions that are typically used for these individual Apocalypse-type stories, so I think I'll be alright for the most part in terms of self-awareness. We'll see what happens skill wise. Hopefully I'll be better off by the end of it than i am going in.

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I'm going to echo the advice about doing more short stories before you embark on something like this, though. You could always do self-contained stories with similar themes or character backstory to the big thing you want to do, to hone your craft. Going into something like this before you're ready runs the risks of 1) the story collapsing into a complete mess and 2) you frustrating yourself and stagnating your creative development. Just try to honestly consider your skill level before you start on this project.

This is the direction I'll be taking. Keeping the individual pieces small and somewhat self contained. I like compartmentalized storytelling a lot. Keep in mind, this isn't something I'm going to be starting on this week. I'm just getting bit down and starting the ball rolling of developing this. I'm not going to do anything with this until well into next year.