Wicca

[Sinda Quezari]

kage no neko

Sinda Quezari

Indeed, and for example in the case of oranges, that already is the factual definition of the word. The same goes with Wicca. Wicca has a definition that says it's X, so it cannot suddenly become something completely different, just like "an orange" cannot suddenly mean "a lake". You are thinking that "orange" can mean anything, according to what we are trying to say. You are saying that we can call lakes oranges, when we cannot.

I think I've figured it out.
You CAN call a lake "orange".
You can call anything you want whatever you like.

Just the problem is since we use words to convey our thoughts, noone will understand what we're talking about.

Indeed. That's why I'll say it would be better to stay with factual, defined meanings, or all communication is lost. gonk

[GeminiSong]

Sinda Quezari

From the point of historical facts, it has not. The word has been slapped over something completely different from its original meaning. The word itself still is what it used to be. A table has not become a curtain.

Alright, then when is it alright for the word to change meaning?

Sinda Quezari

Tables and curtains again. Even if I want "table" to mean "curtain", it doesn't change the meaning of the word. If I tell someone I just saw a dog, when in fact it was a cat, it doesn't matter if I want to attach the idea of a cat into the word. Words already have been attached their meanings.

My entire point is that words can't be attached to meanings, at least in any objective way. The concept itself is nonsense and lacks any rational justification.

Sinda Quezari

Doesn't actually make it true. Factual history still disagrees. It says Wicca is only X by definition, and thus Y cannot be Wicca. Language doesn't evolve that way, and it's tables changing to curtains again.

History doesn't 'say' anything other than person(s) A say term 'B' means 'C'. You're treating history like a person, who can make decisions and has absolute authority over language. It doesn't.

Sinda Quezari

Indeed, and for example in the case of oranges, that already is the factual definition of the word. The same goes with Wicca. Wicca has a definition that says it's X, so it cannot suddenly become something completely different, just like "an orange" cannot suddenly mean "a lake". You are thinking that "orange" can mean anything, according to what we are trying to say. You are saying that we can call lakes oranges, when we cannot.

There's no such thing as a 'factual definition'; we only have common usages for words. The idea that term 'N' can only mean 'X' is an assumption that needs justification, at least by the standards of modern logic. What I want from you, is that justification. Repeating "Wicca means this" just doesn't do it for me. confused

[GeminiSong]

Sinda Quezari

kage no neko

Sinda Quezari

Indeed, and for example in the case of oranges, that already is the factual definition of the word. The same goes with Wicca. Wicca has a definition that says it's X, so it cannot suddenly become something completely different, just like "an orange" cannot suddenly mean "a lake". You are thinking that "orange" can mean anything, according to what we are trying to say. You are saying that we can call lakes oranges, when we cannot.

I think I've figured it out.
You CAN call a lake "orange".
You can call anything you want whatever you like.

Just the problem is since we use words to convey our thoughts, noone will understand what we're talking about.

Indeed. That's why I'll say it would be better to stay with factual, defined meanings, or all communication is lost. gonk

Saying 'it would be better to' is far different than saying 'it is'. Anyway, if you want to talk about easy communication, then you guys are doing more harm than good considering the vast majority of people understand the word 'Wiccan' to mean basically: Eclectic Neo-paganism.

[kage no neko]

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

Sinda Quezari

kage no neko

Sinda Quezari

Indeed, and for example in the case of oranges, that already is the factual definition of the word. The same goes with Wicca. Wicca has a definition that says it's X, so it cannot suddenly become something completely different, just like "an orange" cannot suddenly mean "a lake". You are thinking that "orange" can mean anything, according to what we are trying to say. You are saying that we can call lakes oranges, when we cannot.

I think I've figured it out.
You CAN call a lake "orange".
You can call anything you want whatever you like.

Just the problem is since we use words to convey our thoughts, noone will understand what we're talking about.

Indeed. That's why I'll say it would be better to stay with factual, defined meanings, or all communication is lost. gonk

Saying 'it would be better to' is far different than saying 'it is'. Anyway, if you want to talk about easy communication, then you guys are doing more harm than good considering the vast majority of people understand the word 'Wiccan' to mean basically: Eclectic Neo-paganism.

If you want to get anywhere in life, you should be able to speak words which have the same meaning as other people speak.
Saying "it is" is from the dictionary, which is a guide to what the words are agreed upon meaning.

Pretty much someone wanted to sell books and thought "wicca" sounded interesting, and it does sell. Just because someone is greedy doesn't change the meaning of the word, even if the people who they've fooled believe it.

[Sinda Quezari]

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

Alright, then when is it alright for the word to change meaning?

When the meaning itself actually does change. When tables have became curtains. That's when.

Quote:

My entire point is that words can't be attached to meanings, at least in any objective way. The concept itself is nonsense and lacks any rational justification.

In that case I do not understand how you are able to communicate. "A word" means a word. That is an attached meaning. You are using them every time you use any word. That's the way language works - there is a word and a meaning, together. One is the other.

Quote:

History doesn't 'say' anything other than person(s) A say term 'B' means 'C'. You're treating history like a person, who can make decisions and has absolute authority over language. It doesn't.

Let me give an example of what I mean.

I make up a lifestyle, where people who are a part of it, for example, 1) are never supposed to talk, 2) only wear different shades of blue on their clothes, 3) will have to value music over any art forms, and 4) must be atheists, and then I name that lifestyle Garimna, then that word by history refers only to the lifestyle I created, because the word did not exist before. That is what I mean when I said history disagrees. According to the facts of history, the word "Wicca" did not have a meaning in modern language before Gardner adapted it and gave it a meaning. He did what I did in my example. Thus, by history, his meaning is the meaning of the word.

Quote:

There's no such thing as a 'factual definition'; we only have common usages for words. The idea that term 'N' can only mean 'X' is an assumption that needs justification, at least by the standards of modern logic. What I want from you, is that justification. Repeating "Wicca means this" just doesn't do it for me. confused

See above. The word "Wicca" didn't have a meaning, and Gardner gave it one. His definition stands, by the rules of language, until Wicca itself will change to something else (which, by the way, it will not do, because part of the definition is orthopraxy. If it changes, it becomes something else)

[Cunning Witch Angus]

So far what I am getting from this is that I can make Christianity to mean: Worshiping the Devil rather than accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Or that biology is the study of volcanoes.

Or that Wicca is a practice anyone can have and put any gods they want and rape any culture they want!

What a concept, I must say.

I feel so much better making everything my way.

[kage no neko]

Arcanist Angus

So far what I am getting from this is that I can make Christianity to mean: Worshiping the Devil rather than accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Or that biology is the study of volcanoes.

Or that Wicca is a practice anyone can have and put any gods they want and rape any culture they want!

What a concept, I must say.

I feel so much better making everything my way.

Isn't it wonderful being able to say what you want, though noone else will be able to understand..

[Sinda Quezari]

kage no neko

Arcanist Angus

So far what I am getting from this is that I can make Christianity to mean: Worshiping the Devil rather than accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Or that biology is the study of volcanoes.

Or that Wicca is a practice anyone can have and put any gods they want and rape any culture they want!

What a concept, I must say.

I feel so much better making everything my way.

Isn't it wonderful being able to say what you want, though noone else will be able to understand..

Certainly it is. And then a single man ate the neighbour's green dog, because no one understood what I actually wanted to say, even though I really did attach my meaning to those words... emo

[kage no neko]

Sinda Quezari

kage no neko

Arcanist Angus

So far what I am getting from this is that I can make Christianity to mean: Worshiping the Devil rather than accepting Christ as my Lord and Savior.

Or that biology is the study of volcanoes.

Or that Wicca is a practice anyone can have and put any gods they want and rape any culture they want!

What a concept, I must say.

I feel so much better making everything my way.

Isn't it wonderful being able to say what you want, though noone else will be able to understand..

Certainly it is. And then a single man ate the neighbour's green dog, because no one understood what I actually wanted to say, even though I really did attach my meaning to those words... emo

But the balloons hopped into the box and hugged remotes!! cry

[GeminiSong]

Sinda Quezari

When the meaning itself actually does change. When tables have became curtains. That's when.

How does a meaning change?

Sinda Quezari

In that case I do not understand how you are able to communicate. "A word" means a word. That is an attached meaning. You are using them every time you use any word. That's the way language works - there is a word and a meaning, together. One is the other.

It's not an attached meaning. I'm using 'a word' to represent an idea. For the sake of conversation, we've both assumed it means it's most common usage.

Sinda Quezari

I make up a lifestyle, where people who are a part of it, for example, 1) are never supposed to talk, 2) only wear different shades of blue on their clothes, 3) will have to value music over any art forms, and 4) must be atheists, and then I name that lifestyle Garimna, then that word by history refers only to the lifestyle I created, because the word did not exist before. That is what I mean when I said history disagrees. According to the facts of history, the word "Wicca" did not have a meaning in modern language before Gardner adapted it and gave it a meaning. He did what I did in my example. Thus, by history, his meaning is the meaning of the word.

By history, his meaning is the 'meaning' of the word during his time and within a certain context. Basically what you are saying is that Gardner invented the word, therefore the word has to mean what he defined it as. I see no reason why coining a word gives you authority over it's absolute meaning.

Sinda Quezari

See above. The word "Wicca" didn't have a meaning, and Gardner gave it one. His definition stands, by the rules of language, until Wicca itself will change to something else (which, by the way, it will not do, because part of the definition is orthopraxy. If it changes, it becomes something else)

Haha, what rules of language?

[sal riddle]

I have read a few books about wicca and NONE OF THEM said anything about you having to be in a coven

[Sinda Quezari]

kage no neko

But the balloons hopped into the box and hugged remotes!! cry

Poor things. Both the balloons and remotes. sad

[kage no neko]

sal riddle

I have read a few books about wicca and NONE OF THEM said anything about you having to be in a coven

I bet none of them said anything about it being a fertility cult either, huh? Or even anything about the Great Rite? surprised

A lot of books on "Wicca" are actually just neo-pagan. There's not many books on Wicca because it's a mystery witchcult, which most of it's information is oath-bound.
They use "Wicca" because it sells.

[kage no neko]

Sinda Quezari

kage no neko

But the balloons hopped into the box and hugged remotes!! cry

Poor things. Both the balloons and remotes. sad

I know. But in the end, they all went swimming and lived happily ever after. The end!

[Cunning Witch Angus]

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

How does a meaning change?

Over many, many years.
Not fifty.
And when a majority of a people use its new meaning. For example: Gay means both a homosexual male and it also means stupidity. Quite fascinating really. But no one uses it to mean happy anymore except the occasional poet.

Same thing with queer. It went from strange to an insult for gay people.

So, when people stop using it for its original meaning, then the meaning changes.

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

It's not an attached meaning. I'm using 'a word' to represent an idea. For the sake of conversation, we've both assumed it means it's most common usage.

Are we still speaking of Christianity? The common usage of that is someone who accepts Christ as their savior and goes to church. And tries to save people.

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

By history, his meaning is the 'meaning' of the word during his time and within a certain context. Basically what you are saying is that Gardner invented the word, therefore the word has to mean what he defined it as. I see no reason why coining a word gives you authority over it's absolute meaning.

Shakespeare coined words. Would you call a bathroom a bedroom? I think not. Unless you slept there, but would you still call it your bedroom?

Actually, that is a bad example. Gardner did not invent the word, he gave new meaning to a word that had not been used to many years. And he changed it's spelling from Wicce to Wicca or Wica.

Crowley coined Magick and today many people use that spelling to mean magic that is not on stage.

Reverend Rainbow Chaser

Haha, what rules of language?

Grammar. Nouns. Predicates. Those rules.

If I said to you: I are fat sassy and.

Sure you can make meaning out of it, but you would probably look at me as if I were a crazy person.