Aino, you rock for finding all the posts but everyone's gonna be pissed at you for starting the convo up again. XD
Blairnensha
Blairnensha
Soph: individuals can't take responsibility for a leaderless group, so blaming a group is pointless. Umm... Yeah that's all I got fa now.
I don't remember what that was towards. XD
Aino Ailill
If it is effectively the same, why ought it not be considered oppression?
It isn't effectively the same. Oppression requires a social power structure based on class. What class are men in compared to other men? (not taking into account other oppressions like trans, poor, gay, etc)
Syndactyly
Women can be an emotional/psychological threat to men. And a physical threat to some men, also depending on the woman in question.
None of this is systemic. Ergo not oppression.
Syndactyly
Wut. Well, not in this argument. I'd appreciate it if you did that again, it would make your argument more solid and I might concede if you can prove it.
That would require me to go back pages and ages ago. Can I just be lazy and say ******** it, agree to disagree? Cuz this is old now.
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A push is a push. I don't care if you think it's big or small. And they do oppress in reaction to a man who does not take that push.
It isn't systemic. It isn't oppression.
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Not necessarily. A lot of men beat each other up on other subjects such as fighting over women, money/greed, or simple bucking heads and challenged masculinity.
Fighting over women is an endemic element of sexism against women. A hierarchy based on ownership/greed/money is classism, which spreads over men, women and nonbinaries.
Bucking heads is not oppression, every group does this. It literally is one of the few absolute commonalities to every group. Challenged masculinity is challenged based on... what exactly? Not dominating women well enough? Being feminine? Doing something seen as "gay"? Every experience I've had where my masculinity was called into question pre transition/realization was based on other oppression intersections.
Um dur. We're just constructed as property or objects.
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Try again. You're turning into a radical feminist in the argument and it's not helping your argument.
I'd hardly call what I said radical. It's fairly standard fair. But really what does being radical have to do with being right? Don't ad hominem (real ad hominem, a claim that an aspect of a person makes them wrong instead of their arguments. Insults are just personal attack or poisoning the well, not ad hom).
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You did, however, have to live in the role of male.
Yep.
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Or are you saying you came out as a girl in your youth and was always able to live as a transwoman?
Nope.
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Was there not a time in your life where you had no clue you were trans and thought you were a guy?
Yep.
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I don't believe cismen have it easy.
I did. Once I got some perspective living as a woman (and openly trans) I found that out. Even once I was taken to be a cis woman, being a guy was still easier.
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A cisman is much more likely to have the s**t beat out of him than any transman or woman.
That's actually fairly bullshit. A trans woman has the highest chance out of all of those groups. And the guy isn't being beaten cuz he's a guy in those cases. Wanting to steal a radio from someone, punching him in the face to get the radio and running away is not oppression. It is not systemic social dominance and control based around a given inherent or immutable characteristic.
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I even think the chances of a cisman getting the s**t beat out of him are higher than a transwoman's.
This is bullshit. The percentages for trans women are ridiculous. Could you also split the words please?
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Can every transwoman say she's been in a fight
as a transwoman (not before her transition)? Because every many I've ever spoken to over the age of 25 has been in a fight. Obviously this is anecdotal but I don't have any reason to see it differently unless a trusted source says otherwise.
Being in a fight is not the same as having the s**t kicked out of you. Verbally arguing with someone (two sided) is not the same as getting mocked continously (one sided, w/ a possibility of defense). And how many guys can you confirm were forced into battles and fights without wanting to go into them? Your numbers have confounding variables that really need to be looked at to see the true numbers.
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What? How the ******** is that?
Because trans people are oppressed, whether men or women or nonbinary. You have to specifically analyze the situation to figure out, "is this coming from just being a man or a trans man?"
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First of all, I am received in the public AS A MAN. People don't know I'm trans, they respond to me as they would any other man. So I do experience what a lot of men go through.
Are you sure? I can't be sure I'm taken as a cis woman. I can only theorize based on the fact that people treat me better than they did when it was really obvious I was trans. But we both could have ended up in less transphobic areas, right?
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Second, how does applying my experiences as a transman as comparable to that of ANY man trans oppressing? Would it not be oppressing to separate transmen from "normal" men, putting them on the spot as not "really" men?
You're misunderstanding me. You could (not necessarily are, but definitely could) be confusing your experiences for what all cis men go through (or even a large component) when you're already oppressed for being trans and that oppression has effects throughout your life.
So you would need to do more analysis to separate what's coming from people hating you for being trans or hating you for being a guy (cis or trans)
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Alright.
Systematic downgrading happens a lot, to men, by other men.
Systemic. Systematic was a typo. Systemic means it's characteristic to the social structure, literally built into it.
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Application of ownership can be applied in gay relationships of even by overbearing women on their men.
A strong majority? Built into culture and society? Or isolated incidents?
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As for denial or rights against women, CITATION NEEDED.
I'm actually not sure which thing you're referencing. The way you've put it is awkward. And considering how much anecdotal evidence you're depending on, I'm gonna tell you to ******** off about the citation. It's hypocritical to expect me to follow different rules than you on burden of proof when making claims.
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Oh, and by your logic, including the denial of rights of a transwoman would be trans oppressing.
o_O You were confused about my logic.
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Internalization requires the methods of an external oppressor to be there first to internalize. What external oppressor oppresses men? None. This definition backs me as well.
You said men weren't oppressed, period. That's absolutely not true.
I do recall pointing out that this doesn't include intersection. Just men as a social class. And it's absolutely true. You've proven nothing on this so far with your definitions and wikis and bears oh my.
