[ Poll ] Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans		16.0%	[ 906 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative		12.1%	[ 686 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance		6.0%	[ 341 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone		23.6%	[ 1336 ]
Not at all		31.1%	[ 1764 ]
I don't know		11.1%	[ 630 ]

Total Votes: 5663

[Syndactyly]

Lulz, that was perfect, Brenivin.

[Captain Verd]

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

[Blairnensha]

Captain Verd

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

[Kaosgirl]

Blairnensha

Captain Verd

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
HHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH

She missed the part where she threw gratuitous attacks at someone who's not even involved in this thread right after I blocked her.

Also, revisionism is revisionist. But whatever, it's not like I was expecting something else.

[Recursive Paradox]

Thread has moved way to fast while my modem was busy shitting out its own organs. So if you responded to me back some pages ago or further, I'm not gonna be able to even find your post, much less respond to it.

Cuz I'm lazy.

[Recursive Paradox]

Also, I don't know what the ******** happened in the last 30 pages and I don't wanna know. Hey Rosetta, let's go clubbing while the dust settles. Brb getting eyeliner and low cut shirt.

[Blairnensha]

Blairnensha

Soph: individuals can't take responsibility for a leaderless group, so blaming a group is pointless. Umm... Yeah that's all I got fa now.

[Corrupted Coco]

Captain Verd

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

Lmao.

[Syndactyly]

Captain Verd

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

PERFECT.

See, you are the word of reason. I wasn't lying when I said that.

[Rosetta Celestine]

Recursive Paradox

Also, I don't know what the ******** happened in the last 30 pages and I don't wanna know. Hey Rosetta, let's go clubbing while the dust settles. Brb getting eyeliner and low cut shirt.

*Gets her sparkly lip gloss and short short skirt.*

[Rosetta Celestine]

Captain Verd

The thread:

Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Verd: wut
Kaosgirl: /blocks
Blair: Elwood is this way because of this personality test. I know because I know.
Syn: How the ******** would you know
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: I am so smart! I am so smart!
Syn: wut
Kaosgirl: CLEARLY YOU ARE MENTALLY RETARDED. I AM SMART, SO I COULDN'T POSSIBLY BE A BIG STUPID DOODOOHEAD. EVERYONE UNDERSTAND ME BUT RETARDED KIDS
Syn: AHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Blair: AHHHHHHHHHHHHHH
Kaosgirl: AHHHHHHHHHHHH
Rose: hey guys am i invited to this pa--OH JESUS GOD

Exactly. You totally nailed my reaction to the derail.

[Aino Ailill]

Aino Ailill

Recursive Paradox

Blairnensha

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

I don't think I said anything about safety. But it could be a preference, and why aren't people allowed to have that preference? So a guy wants to be in a strictly male environment. Does he really need a reason?

You misunderstand me. I'm simply saying that safe spaces are an exception to Blair's logic.

Quote:

As for men "aren't oppressed," that's a load of horseshit and you know it. >_>;

Who oppresses men as a social class? o_O

are we talking about how men expect each other to be homophobic, grog-swilling, foul-smelling pigs with trophy wives? Or something else.

I dunno, you'd have to ask Syn. I don't think the label class oppression applies to in house battles. For instance, the bitchy s**t trans women do to each other isn't oppression. It just sucks.

If it is effectively the same, why ought it not be considered oppression?

[Aino Ailill]

Agent Cougar Draven

Syndactyly

Aino Ailill

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

How? Women's bodies are construed as owned, we're raped far, far more often than men are, we make less money, are harassed more, our views are construed as less valid, etc etc etc. Men do in fact have privilege over women cuz masculinity is treated as higher than femininity. It's why people beat the s**t out of trans women and mostly just ignore trans guys. It is expected for femininity to be shed. Attempting to gain it goes against the ideology of our culture.

Men are expected to be strong, the providers, and all the other stereotypical roles, and women condone and encourage these stereotypes.

But women do not have the social power to enforce these stereotypes. Only men do.

I'd very much like to the evidence to support this. My experiences would indicate that women are very influential in shaming and manipulating men into playing their 'proper' role.

THIS.

Women can be an emotional/psychological threat to men. And a physical threat to some men, also depending on the woman in question.

Agreed. I'd also like to see some evidence.

[Aino Ailill]

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Recursive Paradox

Syndactyly

Men are expected to be strong, the providers, and all the other stereotypical roles, and women condone and encourage these stereotypes.

But women do not have the social power to enforce these stereotypes. Only men do.

I obviously don't agree with this. I believe a lot of men buy into these stereotypes because of social pressures fro women. I don't think any of us could prove either way.

I've already logically established it in the past using the statistics regarding what women and men face socially. So I feel I've already proven it.

Wut. Well, not in this argument. I'd appreciate it if you did that again, it would make your argument more solid and I might concede if you can prove it.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

I do have a source, but it is dated and does not have statistics on this basic issue. But it does explain in a nutshell why/how men are oppressed mostly by other men, and also how women add fuel to the fire as well.

Women do nothing more than add a mild social push to the equation. Calling that oppression is a little bit ridiculous.

A push is a push. I don't care if you think it's big or small. And they do oppress in reaction to a man who does not take that push.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

Men are harassed and beaten by other men for not meeting these roles.

More often these are responses to incorporation of feminine elements, homosexuality and being trans.

Not necessarily. A lot of men beat each other up on other subjects such as fighting over women, money/greed, or simple bucking heads and challenged masculinity.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

But in terms of beatings, men are much more beaten by other men than women are beaten by men. Men are the victims of the most beatings and murders at least in the United States.

Men also hold the most resources and are better targets for greed related murders and beatings than women are, mostly cuz society constructs women as property, not owners of property. Whereas men are owners of property.

Women are not property. Try again. You're turning into a radical feminist in the argument and it's not helping your argument.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

Come close? Maybe not. But yuo said men weren't oppressed. I'm not saying they're oppressed nearly as much as women, but I don't appreciate your claim that men have it easy. You should know better, you've had to fight the role of your birth sex for a long time.

My struggles as a trans woman aren't the struggles of men. Cis men do not face what I do. They do not face what you do. They do not face what cis women do. They do have it easy.

You did, however, have to live in the role of male. Or are you saying you came out as a girl in your youth and was always able to live as a transwoman? Was there not a time in your life where you had no clue you were trans and thought you were a guy?

I don't believe cismen have it easy. A cisman is much more likely to have the s**t beat out of him than any transman or woman. I even think the chances of a cisman getting the s**t beat out of him are higher than a transwoman's. Can every transwoman say she's been in a fight as a transwoman (not before her transition)? Because every many I've ever spoken to over the age of 25 has been in a fight. Obviously this is anecdotal but I don't have any reason to see it differently unless a trusted source says otherwise.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

I am basing this on what I know not only about my own experiences but of the experiences of other men (cis and trans). My own experiences are a VERY small piece of the puzzle here, I am mostly talking about males as a gender, perceived completely as male. I am not talking about the whole transgender piece of the puzzle in this instance, but it does apply to us as trangender individuals once our medical history is no longer "public record" (once not everyone knows about it and we blend into our respective roles).

Any trans man's experiences you apply to this have the confounding variable of trans oppression attached to them.

What? How the ******** is that?

First of all, I am received in the public AS A MAN. People don't know I'm trans, they respond to me as they would any other man. So I do experience what a lot of men go through.

Second, how does applying my experiences as a transman as comparable to that of ANY man trans oppressing? Would it not be oppressing to separate transmen from "normal" men, putting them on the spot as not "really" men?

Recursive Paradox

How many cis men do you know face systemic downgrading, application of ownership and denial of rights based on disruption of social roles that do not involve femininity?

Alright.

Systematic downgrading happens a lot, to men, by other men. Application of ownership can be applied in gay relationships of even by overbearing women on their men. As for denial or rights against women, CITATION NEEDED.

Oh, and by your logic, including the denial of rights of a transwoman would be trans oppressing.

Recursive Paradox

Quote:

No, you don't.

Quote:

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/oppress

Main Entry: op·press
1 a archaic : suppress b : to crush or burden by abuse of power or authority
2 : to burden spiritually or mentally : weigh heavily upon

"by abuse of power or authority": A group does not have power or authority over itself. Your definition backs me.

Quote:

Wikipedia explains internalized oppression, which obviously is a form of oppression:

Quote:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oppression#Internalized_oppression

In sociology and psychology, internalized oppression is the manner in which an oppressed group comes to use against itself the methods of the oppressor.

[...]

Any social group can internalize prejudice.

Internalization requires the methods of an external oppressor to be there first to internalize. What external oppressor oppresses men? None. This definition backs me as well.

You said men weren't oppressed, period. That's absolutely not true.