Transgender Issues- not just "men in dresses"

Are you affected by trans issues?

Yes- I'm trans/I think I might be trans	16.2%	[ 919 ]
Yes- I have a trans friend or relative	12.1%	[ 687 ]
Indirectly- I have a trans acquaintance	6.0%	[ 341 ]
Not directly, but I feel these issues affect me indirectly/ I feel that these issues affect everyone	23.5%	[ 1336 ]
Not at all	31.1%	[ 1766 ]
I don't know	11.1%	[ 630 ]
Total Votes:			[ 5679 ]

[SairentoSonata]

... I know this was an old thread, and that it was all answered before, but I wanted to add my fifteen cents. XD Nyah.

Taineyah

The measure of a human being lies not in whether what is between their legs matches what is in their mind, but in how they treat others.

It's that simple.

A nice thought, but not practical in real life application.

The Indubitable Katie-Kat

As for their birth sex, I feel it's rude and disgusting to ask.

You are wonderful. 3nodding

PirateEire

Though that was incorrect. I guess I just like the female body, whether it's real or not.

So if someone had a surgically constructed v****a and breasts, but was born male, would you (personally) consider that "real"? I'd be slightly offended if people said I didn't have a "real" man's body, or wasn't a "real man" just because I was born with a female body. I'm sure MtFs would also be offended to not be considered "real" women.

RiverOFIreland

i don't belive in homosexuality

And some people don't believe in the Holocaust...? o_o Er... Do you mean you don't AGREE with it? Or...?

Timperoo

I dont mind gay people or lesbians, or whatever, but I think that you should stick with what you got, if your born a man, be a man, if your a woman, be a woman, maybe i have no understanding on the subject, but thats my opinion

The problem is, I WAS born a man. ... With a woman's body. I was BORN trans, it's not like I chose to be this way, so such advice is utterly useless to me. razz Sorry.

Lol Wrath

Female-a person bearing two X chromosomes in the cell nuclei

Male-a person bearing an X and Y chromosome pair in the cell nuclei


I don't care what kind of operation you got, if you're born a man, you're still a man, even if you have fake parts of a female put in, and vice versa.

So what if you're intersex? Then what? razz If you have XXY, for example.

Either way: Sex /=/ Gender. Read OP plzkthnxbai.

Lol Wrath

Oh, I see.

You CAN'T back it up.

Insert general grumbling here. -brings out the resources-

"Gender", in common usage, refers to the differences between men and women. Encyclopaedia Britannica notes that gender identity is "an individual's self-conception as being male or female, as distinguished from actual biological sex." Although "gender" is commonly used interchangeably with "sex," within the academic fields of cultural studies, gender studies and the social sciences in general, the term "gender" often refers to purely social rather than biological differences.
~ http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gender

In addition to age, gender is one of the universal dimensions on which status differences are based. Unlike sex, which is a biological concept, gender is a social construct specifying the socially and culturally prescribed roles that men and women are to follow.
~ http://www.trinity.edu/mkearl/gender.html

It is important to understand gender as different from sexuality. Sexuality concerns physical and biological differences that distinguish males from females. Cultures construct differences in gender. These social constructions attach themselves to behaviors, expectations, roles, representations, and sometimes to values and beliefs that are specific to either men or women.
~ http://www.answers.com/topic/gender

***Sexual identity. The objective categorisation of a person's physiological status as male or female.
***Gender identity. A subjective, but continuous and persistent, sense of ourselves as masculine or feminine.
***Gender role or sex role. The behaviours, attitudes values, beliefs and so on that a particular cultural group considers appropriate for males and females on the basis of their biological sex.
~ http://www.gender.org.uk/about/00_defin.htm

Although I don't believe in gender itself being socially constructed, these resources all echo the idea that gender IS DIFFERENT from sex.

Other sites that talk about the differences between male and female brains:
http://www.newhorizons.org/neuro/diamond_male_female.htm
http://www.thedigitalbeat.com/2007/04/male-brain-vs-female-brain.html
http://www.usnews.com/usnews/tech/nextnews/archive/next050121.htm

Lol Wrath

I still think they're men in dresses :/

Because of course, all trans-folk are born men.

... Gods, I want to strangle something.

Cap_America

What about people who are delusional, who say they're Jesus Christ, or Napoleon Bonaparte, or they're from Mars? Their brains do not match their bodies.

Actually, their brains MATCH their bodies... there's just some sort of... odd... yeah. XD Frankly, I don't care who or what people think they are as long as they're functional and don't hurt people.

Cap_America

A woman, born with woman parts, is not capable of being male, by any definition. At best, she can go through surgery to outwardly appear male, but she'd be forever doomed to a half-life of maledom, never able to be truly what she thinks she is, as her sex had been predetermined before birth.

...-.- I am extremely insulted. I will state again that sex /=/ gender, and I would love to add that... GUESS WHAT? My BRAIN is what controls this body. Without my brain, I could have tits the size of Texas and it'd be USELESS because I'd be DEAD. So if my BRAIN says I'm male, I don't care what my body says-- brain > boobs and v****a.

Cap_America

....and severe kidney and liver damage.

Actually, preventative medicine has come a LONG way in helping to avoid such things.

Cap_America

If it wasn't risky, if there was a method of changing the brain's structure through, say, medication, surgery, therapy, magic genie, etc...would you consider changing that any more or less ethical than changing their body?

I don't know about ethics, but I refused to have my brain changed to match my body. The thought of being female disgusts and horrifies me. I would likely commit suicide.

Cap_America

And isn't simply having surgery to appear the opposite gender a half-measure that causes more harm than good?

No, because then I could at least be treated somewhat how I'd like.

Cap_America

It's impossible to fully change your sex through current medical procedures, and the surgery and hormone treatment that people go through is enormously damaging to the systems and a dangerous procedure in any event. How is it worth it?

I don't care about changing my SEX. (Though if you get bottom surgery, you kind of ARE changing your sex, at least looks-wise.) I just want my body to somewhat match how I feel I should look. It'd be totally worth it to not have to look in the mirror and not want to puke.

Chaotic Fury

It's the same with us, except we got a p***s that didn't belong there in the first place.

Or, never had one to begin with when they feel that they should. (Trans people can be born male OR female, folks, come on...>.<; )

Cap_America

Why would changing their "mental gender" change their personality, memories, etc?

Because my personality is built up on the idea that I am male. Because I will always remember how it felt like to be considered male, and I would be tortured forever because I'd remember how disgusted I was at having a female body. Having my brain messed with wouldn't change anything.

Cap_America

Would you say that a depressed person isn't suffering from a neurological disorder because their brain just happens to not produce the correct amount of seratonin that keeps them free of depression? The brain functions fine, it just has a deficiency in seratonin production.

If there's a deficiency in seratonin, then the brain is NOT functioning fine. o_o WTFDUH. If the brain was functioning fine, there wouldn't be an issue with seratonin because the brain is in charge of such things.

Cap_America

I can also see that it's scientifically classified as a disorder.

So was homosexuality.

... Bah. heart

[Fran Salaska]

Cap_America

If it wasn't risky, if there was a method of changing the brain's structure through, say, medication, surgery, therapy, magic genie, etc...would you consider changing that any more or less ethical than changing their body?

Much, much less ethical. Changes to the body are superficial and ease their state of mind, rather than changing it. Change someone's brain to think female instead of male, or male instead of female, could change the entire basis of who and what they are. You'd be changing them to 'fit in' with society, but they would in all likelihood be a different person. Same name and appearence, but totally different.

Besides, plenty of people change their bodies. Breast enhancement or reduction, lipo, vaginal reconstruction or lip trimming, nose jobs... the list goes on. There's nothing wrong with changing your body to be comfortable with it, even if that means changing it to look a different gender.

Plus, if they kept their memories, they'd remember how much they hated their body, and therefore any 'good' that may have been done could be completely undone, or further problems could be caused by the conflict.

I would raise strenuous objections were changing the mind instead of the body become more recommended and sought after by transphobics. If my brain became wired male instead of female, I'd no longer be me. If your brain were rewired to become the opposite gender, you wouldn't be you anymore, and changing who you are - whilst part of who we are, like changing religion or goals or dreams - is just, to me, wrong. Should women who are unhappy with their bodies have their brains rewired to accept small or large breasts? Should men who used to have thin wives they adored that put on weight and are no longer the idealised thin woman have their brains rewired to accept fat women? No. And these are only little things. Fact is, we are how we are, and no one should change that.

[Kaosgirl]

SairentoSonata

Timperoo

I dont mind gay people or lesbians, or whatever, but I think that you should stick with what you got, if your born a man, be a man, if your a woman, be a woman, maybe i have no understanding on the subject, but thats my opinion

The problem is, I WAS born a man. ... With a woman's body. I was BORN trans, it's not like I chose to be this way, so such advice is utterly useless to me. razz Sorry.

Yeah, I know. I was born male bodied with a female identity, and I actually *tried* very hard to be a man. But the whole time, it was like I was fighting a battle against myself, and one I didn't really want to win.

Quote:

Although I don't believe in gender itself being socially constructed, these resources all echo the idea that gender IS DIFFERENT from sex.

Gender roles are socially constructed; gender identity dictates how one sees themselves interacting with the available gender roles of a society, but it's something different in itself.

I see myself as a woman with a slightly butch/feminist attitude. I take offense to a lot of gender-based expectations on both sides, but unless I make a conscious effort to avoid it, I tend to do it from the perspective of being a woman. Crappy expectations placed on men bother me, but they don't 'feel' personal the way crappy expectations placed on women do.

Quote:

Cap_America

If it wasn't risky, if there was a method of changing the brain's structure through, say, medication, surgery, therapy, magic genie, etc...would you consider changing that any more or less ethical than changing their body?

I don't know about ethics, but I refused to have my brain changed to match my body. The thought of being female disgusts and horrifies me. I would likely commit suicide.

Personally, I consider having such a 'change' done as being equivalent to dying anyway. Maybe because I see gender identity as being too integral a part of who I am, but it just seems like 'fixing' the identity instead of the body is killing me and replacing it with something close that isn't me.

[beaulolais]

my uncle/aunt is MtF.

the family is dealing with it; we mostly see it as just something which happens to some people.

the scrapbooks of the past will remain unedited, he will always have been an adventurous little boy.

just as she will now always be an elegant woman.

[Fran Salaska]

Sumire: I think he was spoofing Transformers. ¬.¬ Either way, he's still wrong.

[Koravin]

Seeing the Kraken

Cap_America

If it wasn't risky, if there was a method of changing the brain's structure through, say, medication, surgery, therapy, magic genie, etc...would you consider changing that any more or less ethical than changing their body?

Much, much less ethical. Changes to the body are superficial and ease their state of mind, rather than changing it. Change someone's brain to think female instead of male, or male instead of female, could change the entire basis of who and what they are. You'd be changing them to 'fit in' with society, but they would in all likelihood be a different person. Same name and appearence, but totally different.

Besides, plenty of people change their bodies. Breast enhancement or reduction, lipo, vaginal reconstruction or lip trimming, nose jobs... the list goes on. There's nothing wrong with changing your body to be comfortable with it, even if that means changing it to look a different gender.

Plus, if they kept their memories, they'd remember how much they hated their body, and therefore any 'good' that may have been done could be completely undone, or further problems could be caused by the conflict.

I would raise strenuous objections were changing the mind instead of the body become more recommended and sought after by transphobics. If my brain became wired male instead of female, I'd no longer be me. If your brain were rewired to become the opposite gender, you wouldn't be you anymore, and changing who you are - whilst part of who we are, like changing religion or goals or dreams - is just, to me, wrong. Should women who are unhappy with their bodies have their brains rewired to accept small or large breasts? Should men who used to have thin wives they adored that put on weight and are no longer the idealised thin woman have their brains rewired to accept fat women? No. And these are only little things. Fact is, we are how we are, and no one should change that.

Yeah, I gotta agree with Kraken here. We should not change who we are, aka our brains, to fit in with society. People really don't care if you change your body. I mean, here I am, pushing my glasses eternally up my nose so I can see. I could get surgery to make my eyes better. I could get all sorts of plastic surgery to change my appearance to make it more appealing to myself. But as soon as we go to sex reassignment, it's a weird thing to do. I could make my boobs ridiculously huge, and that'd be fine, if a little shallow, but if I want a p***s, that's a no-no? Why?

[davidart84]

DysPerDis

Note: this topic is subject to revision. Reputable sources on trans issues are loved- if you've got 'em, flaunt 'em baby!

Update 10/12/06: Added an FAQ to cover some stuff that is mentioned quite a bit. This will be updated as necessary.

So, it appears that ED is suffering from a few misconceptions about gender identity and trans issues. Some people see transpeople as "men in dresses", some people think that it's a choice, and a few have even managed to confuse transsexuality with homosexuality- although I'm not quite sure how.

Terminology
All terminology from Hudson's FTM resource guide (ftmguide.com) unless otherwise noted.

• Gender Identity: A person's internal self-awareness of being either male or female, masculine or feminine, or something in-between.
  
  
• Sex:Sum of features by which a member of a plant or animal species can be placed into one of two complementary reproductive groups, male or female. (From the Encyclopedia Britannica, Accessed through Answers.com)
  
  
• Sexual Orientation: A term used to refer to a person's emotional, romantic and sexual attraction to individuals of a particular gender (male or female) (from WebMD)
  
  
• Transgender: Broadly speaking, transgender people are individuals whose gender expression and/or gender identity differs from conventional expectations based on the physical sex they were born into. The word transgender is an umbrella term which is often used to describe a wide range of identities and experiences, including: FTMs, MTFs, cross-dressers, drag queens, drag kings, gender queers, and many more. Because transgender is an umbrella term, it is often thought to be an imprecise term that does not adequately describe the particulars of specific identities and experiences. (For example, the identity/experience of a post-operative FTM transsexual will probably be very different from that of a female-identified drag king who performs on weekends, but both are often lumped together under the term "transgender." wink
  
  
• Transsexual: An individual whose gender identity does not match the sex that was assigned to them at birth. Usually, transsexual people will seek hormonal and/or surgical treatment in order to bring their body into alignment with their gender identity. See also "gender identity" and "female-to-male transsexual."
  
  
• FtM: A female-to-male transsexual.
  
  
• MtF: A male-to-female transsexual.
  
  
• Gender Identity Disorder (GID):A condition identified by psychologists and medical doctors wherein a person who has been assigned one gender at birth identifies as belonging to another gender.
  
  
• Sex Reassignment Surgery (SRS): Commonly termed a "sex change operation." This term is somewhat of a misnomer, because it implies there is one surgical procedure for successful transition into presenting or living as male. For FTMs, there are several surgical procedures available, including chest reconstruction surgery, hysterectomy/oophorectomy, and different types of genital reconstruction surgery (GRS). Many FTMs undergo chest surgery, but not GRS. Many have chest surgery and a hysterectomy, but not GRS. Some have all three procedures (which may total more than three surgeries, as GRS can often involve several surgical procedures). Still others may not be able to afford any surgery at all, yet live very successfully as men in society through ongoing testosterone treatment.
  
  The requirements for "changing sex" under the law (i.e., changing one's legally recognized sex) vary from state to state, and often depend on the amount and type of surgery or hormone therapy one has had. A few states will not allow for a change in legal sex no matter how much surgery of treatment one has had. Thus, the idea that there is one, clear-cut surgical solution for "changing sex" is a bit misleading. See also "chest surgery," "genital reconstruction surgery (GRS)," "hysterectomy," and "oophorectomy."
  
  
• Genderqueer: A gender-variant person whose gender identity is neither male nor female, is between or beyond genders, or is some combination of genders.
  
  
• Transphobia: Transphobia is the negative valuing, stereotyping and discriminatory treatment of individuals who do not conform in appearance and/or identity, to conventional conceptions of gender. Trans-identified (transgendered) individuals, lesbians, gay men, bisexuals and their supporters are typically the targets of transphobia. (From Queen's University Harrassment/Discrimination policy)
  
  
• Real Life Test (RLT): A period of time in which a transsexual person is required to live full time in the role of the sex they identify with (i.e., a transsexual person born female would be living full time as a male) before the medical community will begin the medical gender reassignment process. The RLT is required under the Harry Benjamin Standards of Care, but other Standards of Care do not require a RLT or may use discretion in determining the length of a RLT. Individual mental health and medical professionals may also use discretion when determining if a RLT is necessary for a given individual. See also "Harry Benjamin Standards of Care" and "Standards of Care." [note: this is occasionally referred to as cross-living]
  
  
• Passing: In an FTM context, being seen or read as male by others (e.g., "On the street, Alex was successfully passing as a man" wink . Some FTMs object to the term "passing," as it implies that one is being mistaken for something he is not.
  

What causes Gender Identity Disorder?

Current Information on Profound Gender Identity Disorder

In 2000 Dutch research confirmed previous (19951) anatomic findings that profound GID or transsexuality is directly linked to anomalous (sex-inverted) gender dimorphism of the BSTc brain area, and clarified that BSTc gender-inversion is not caused by cross-hormone treatment.2 These findings support a medical model of transsexuality as an 'obscured' congenital intersex condition, in which the genitalia are spared prenatally but the brain is not.3

[Source]

Now, what exactly does that mean? To put it simply, brain structure seems to play a role in gender identity, and gender identity disorder occurs when the BSTc area of the brain forms atypically.

How is Gender Identity Disorder treated?

Gender identity is considered immutable by medical professionals, and therefore Gender Identity Disorder is generally "treated" by cross-living, and usually by altering the body to match the gender of the person in question. This is done by introducing hormones, and possibly through a series of cosmetic surgeries to form the body to that of the opposite sex, depending on the circumstances of the transperson.

Now is a good place to note that many people disagree with the classification of atypical gender identities as a disorder.

What Is Involved with Transitioning?

Transitioning is a long involved process, which is not undertaken lightly.

Steps to transition:

• See therapist, get diagnosed with GID
  
• Get a prescription for hormones from a physician
  
• Begin basic physical alterations- growing out or cutting hair, electrolysis, binding, stuffing, tucking...
  
• Begin Real Life Test- in many places, this lasts for at least a year, although some areas require even longer.
  
• More therapy- Reputable surgeons will not preform SRS without a therapist's go-ahead. (See the Standards of Care for GID)
  
• SRS and other cosmetic surgeries- including breast augmentations or masectomies, trachial shaves, etc.
  

While the transperson in question may not follow the steps exactly in this order (and, depending on the scruples of the doctors involved, may skip steps altogether), this is generally how it works, although the requirements for chest surgeries, etc, are usually less strenuous than those for genital surgery. More detail about transitioning can be found at tsroadmap.com

Problems faced by Transpeople

Medical Issues:

Gay Lesbian Medical Association

Transgender persons are often reluctant to seek medical care through a traditional provider-patient relationship. Some are even turned away by providers. A doctor who refuses to treat a trans person may be acting out of fear and transphobia, or may have a religious bias against GLBT patients. It’s also possible that the doctor simply doesn’t have the knowledge or experience he needs. Furthermore, health care related to transgender issues is usually not covered by insurance, so it is more expensive. Whatever the reasons, transgender people have sometimes become very ill because they were afraid to visit their providers.

[source]

Transphobia: Movements such as Remembering Our Dead provide a chilling reminder as to the extent of transphobia in society, although it is apparent in many other aspects. Transpeople are often forced to deal with taunts, threats, and insults- some on a daily basis. While Transsexuals seem to be the most common target, other transpeople are also targeted for daring to express themselves in a way that differs from the societal norm.

Transphobia arises from misconceptions about trans issues, including the belief that transsexuals are gay and trying to attract members of the same sex, the belief that transgenderism is fetish behavior and that transwomen are nothing more than "men in dresses" and transmen are just "chicks with p***s envy", and the belief that gender can be changed with hormones and therapy- as well as other, more slanderous beliefs (trans people are perverts/child molesters/will turn you gay/change your gender/etc.)

Transphobia is apparent even in the actions of those who are supposed to be working for our benifit- Tyra Hunter is possibly the most well-know example of this. Wikipedia's article on transphobia contains other examples of transphobia in our society.


Legal Issues:

Transsexuals in particular are often left in a legal limbo, especially while they are transitioning. In most states, you are considered a member of your birth sex unless you have completed SRS, which leaves many vulnerable to transphobia. Even after SRS, a couple of states make no allowance for altering identification to match your sex [source]. Only a handful of states have anti-discrimination policies which mention gender identity- a list of these can be found here.
More information on legal rights of transpeople can be found here.

FAQ

Q: Can a transwomen be a lesbian?
A: Yes. Gender Identity does not affect Sexual Orientation, and vice versa.

Q: But why bother with SRS? They won't look like "real" men/women, anyways.
A: Oh, really?





Pictures from http://ai.eecs.umich.edu/people/conway/TSsuccesses/TSsuccesses.html

Further Information

HRC list of trans issues
Incarcerated Transgendered People
Transgendercare.com
Transitioning Information
TransProud
TransWomen Success Stories
TSSupport.org

A man's personal feeling of what gender they are is solely based on bias and not an objective truth.

[Runs With Beetles]

Does anyone else notice the hypocrisy of Cap America?

"Don't change your bodies!" is his demand, yet he audaciously suggests "Having surgery to fix the brain".

Why would anyone consider changing one's brain over changing one's body to match the brain?

ANyways, my best friend back in highschool was genderqueer, meaning he identified with both genders to varying degrees. Many people were intimidated by him, but he was and awesome person, and his friendship was very crucial to me in my homophobic, conservative, snide highschool.

People mainly get uncomfortable around trans people because trans people fall outside their too narrow definition of what is sex and what is gender. It's similar to the gay thing, people don't understand it, can't relate to it, so, they deny it, ignore it, or fight it.

[Nietzsche]

I don't remember if I've replied to this one or not, but I knew I had to at some point.

[DysPerDis]

thatpanda

Gender: like a light-switch? Please! No, I think of it as a stereo equalizer. I'll show you how it works. I was born with Female parts (which I still have). My Sexual Characteristics slide would be almost all the way to the left. Someday though, I will get the Female parts removed. Then the Sexual Characteristics level will be turned off. You can do that with any level.

My Gender Identity is in the middle (Androgyne). I want my body to match what my mind is and for me that means getting rid of the uterus and breasts. I hope that someday I won't have to put Female on my legal documents because that only serves as a painful reminder to me.

My Gender Presentation ranges from Androgynous to Butch. Today, I'm more Butch. Tomorrow, who knows?

Love the picture. I really need to add more info on Androgynes, etc. to the first post. If anyone has any pertinent information, I'd love to see it!

@ Everyone: I totally thought this thread was dead. Glad to see I was mistaken!

[Who is Morgan]

DysPerDis

thatpanda

Gender: like a light-switch? Please! No, I think of it as a stereo equalizer. I'll show you how it works. I was born with Female parts (which I still have). My Sexual Characteristics slide would be almost all the way to the left. Someday though, I will get the Female parts removed. Then the Sexual Characteristics level will be turned off. You can do that with any level.

My Gender Identity is in the middle (Androgyne). I want my body to match what my mind is and for me that means getting rid of the uterus and breasts. I hope that someday I won't have to put Female on my legal documents because that only serves as a painful reminder to me.

My Gender Presentation ranges from Androgynous to Butch. Today, I'm more Butch. Tomorrow, who knows?

Love the picture. I really need to add more info on Androgynes, etc. to the first post. If anyone has any pertinent information, I'd love to see it!

@ Everyone: I totally thought this thread was dead. Glad to see I was mistaken!

It pops up at irregular intervals and I'm always glad to see it revive itself. ^_^

[DysPerDis]

davidart84

A man's personal feeling of what gender they are is solely based on bias and not an objective truth.

Care to explain this overly vague statement and how it relates to the first post? Possibly without quoting the entire first post and tacking on one line this time?