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Ace of Shadows

For the love of crap, I know anime is animation. I'm not stupid, and most of us here know it's animation. But it's not novel writing, and too many fan authors don't seem to realize that. It's one thing to say you're inspired by anime and going for a certain kind of atmosphere/feeling/whatever, but there's somethings that don't translate well or at all into the solely written prose medium.

And the reason manga can focus on facial expression is because we can see them happening. It's drawn, therefore there's no need to describe what we can see and interpret for ourselves when reading/looking at a manga. Then there's the fact that anime and manga as we know it comes primarily out of Japan. As in it's being exported over here for us, foreigners, to view. It's only in recent years that Americans have been starting to say they're writing/drawing manga, because it sounds foreign and cool. I myself am highly manga influenced, but I just call my stuff comics, since that's what it is, and what manga means anyway.

Anime and manga just aren't prose, and too many people are getting them confused. Manga is just comic, anime is just cartoons, both of which are primarily a visual medium and most of the writing involved is the dialogue script. It is not the same as prose, and the younger fans, and many of the older ones, don't seem to know there's a difference. They need to learn it.


YOU need to learn that people writer differently than you. People write manga and anime. Like it or not.... it's a style that is used in writing. Who cares what the words "mean". Not everyone uses word meaning properly. Take cussing for example. People cuss even though the real meaning has NOTHING to do with what they are talking about.

Yes Manga and Anime use visual means. But guess what... writing does to. You read words. It is not made out in a picture... but a good writer is able to place a picture in your mind with words. If people want to write expressions in their writing. Let them. You don't make up the rules for writing. The rules aren't set in stone. They aren't a law.

People need to realize that there are more ways to write stories than just the basics. They need to learn it.
Tesar Eshne's avatar

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I Think one of the points that should be made about the anime/manga writing is that there is a Comic creator's subforum for people who are writing for Manga.
That's a good point. Although I guess when you are writing the story it would make more sense to post here. If you were drawing, it would make more sense to post in the comic subforum. At least that is me.
Tesar Eshne's avatar

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You'd think that, but many of the inhabitants of the Comic Creators Subforum are Comic writers.

Anyways, I'm not sure if you guys realize this, but I think this thread was made for people to have fun blowing off steam about all the people who go around doing annoying things in the writers forum.

And Most of the rules actually make sense as things which annoy not only regulars, (Who tend to be a bit elitist, no offense meant) but many people who try to come here to actually have a good time discussing writing.

I mean, how many people post their stories here instead of the subforums because they didn't bother to read the top of the page? It just gets a bit irritating after a while.
Vinstepula
I think the funniest thing that I have seen on here is where people bash Harry Potter, Eragon, and Twilight books because they are cliche or not as well written as they want it to be. If those books were soooooo bad. Why is it that they are very popular?


Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything, but Hitler was hella popular back in the thirties. He was still "soooooo bad". Popularity doesn't measure anything except how many people like something, and people can like some hella stupid things, as history has proved countless times over.

That said, you know, the main reason we hate on all the Eragon/Harry Potter/Twilight threads is because they don't belong in here. The fact that most of us hate the books is only a side issue.
doubtingdennis
Vinstepula
I think the funniest thing that I have seen on here is where people bash Harry Potter, Eragon, and Twilight books because they are cliche or not as well written as they want it to be. If those books were soooooo bad. Why is it that they are very popular?


Not to invoke Godwin's law or anything, but Hitler was hella popular back in the thirties. He was still "soooooo bad". Popularity doesn't measure anything except how many people like something, and people can like some hella stupid things, as history has proved countless times over.

That said, you know, the main reason we hate on all the Eragon/Harry Potter/Twilight threads is because they don't belong in here. The fact that most of us hate the books is only a side issue.


Umm I was speaking bad in the sense of poor writing. Not bad in the sense of morals. Plus you are comparing a book to a human. Both very different.

Popularity may not measure much. But it sure says that the book is good enough to many people to like it and read it. The book does not do much good if not many people like it. Even if it has good writing in it.

Also, I'm not talking about those books in the sense of misplaced threads. I'm talking about people who are talking about the writing itself. So don't speak as if you know that the only reason people hate on it is because it is misplaced.
Vinstepula
Popularity may not measure much. But it sure says that the book is good enough to many people to like it and read it. The book does not do much good if not many people like it. Even if it has good writing in it.
I wish I had your faith in humanity. I'm having to forcibly resist going on a giant rant about all this right now, but basically: most people don't read things for the words, they read them for the concepts. People look at something like Eragon and go "It has dragons and fighting and saving the world, therefore it must be cool!!!" without noticing that the author couldn't arrange a decent sentence to save his life. Their popularity has nothing to do with skill, just happening to include the elements that people are gravitating towards this year. Not to mention that bestsellers are pretty much created by the publishing companies, not the actual buyers. It's all in how you market it, bay-bee.

And popular still doesn't mean good no matter what sense or medium you're talking about. Mmkay done now.



MORE ON TOPIC. I'm almost positive this one has been mentioned before, but just in case: Rule OVER 9000, that's not your poem!

I don't know what it is about poetry that makes so many people completely forget about simple things like, I don't know, COPYRIGHT, and assume they have every right to post other people's work on a public site without bothering to put the real author's name on it. But it seems to happen ALL THE TIME here. Never with prose, either, it's always poetry, and really insipid poetry too.

And then they send me nasty e-mails when I inform them that it counts as plagiarism. Badly spelled ones. It makes me so sad.
Ha, you lose, doubtingdennis! xd

That said, you're absolutely right. I've always wondered why people confuse good and popular, anyway. It may be the basis of the US's political system, but look what that got us. ><; Marketing is the basis of popularity, not goodness. Goodness is an intrinsic property which just happens to be subjective. Or something. What was I saying? sweatdrop
doubtingdennis
I wish I had your faith in humanity. I'm having to forcibly resist going on a giant rant about all this right now, but basically: most people don't read things for the words, they read them for the concepts. People look at something like Eragon and go "It has dragons and fighting and saving the world, therefore it must be cool!!!" without noticing that the author couldn't arrange a decent sentence to save his life. Their popularity has nothing to do with skill, just happening to include the elements that people are gravitating towards this year. Not to mention that bestsellers are pretty much created by the publishing companies, not the actual buyers. It's all in how you market it, bay-bee.

And popular still doesn't mean good no matter what sense or medium you're talking about. Mmkay done now.


Yes I know that people read things for concepts. If they read them for words...Those books would not be liked by all because the writing is not the best. I never said that popularity had to deal with skill. I never said that popular books must mean that they have perfect grammar.

It shows that if you have a good idea and you write well enough for it. A lot of people like it.

As for book selling lists. I don't even pay attention to them. I pay more attention to the tons and tons of users on here who talk about it. The tons on users on any site for that manner.

When I was talking about good in my last post. I'm talking about the story itself. Not the mechanics. If you can't write a book that has a great story line, even if you have that magical great mechanics.... it won't sell. Like you said..... people don't read for words. But if it makes you feel happier and your life more complete thinking that popularity does not matter at all in books..... go right away. If people hate your books... don't come complaining that the "popular" books are all crap because they sell better than yours.
Ace of Blue Spades's avatar

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Vinstepula
Ace of Shadows

For the love of crap, I know anime is animation. I'm not stupid, and most of us here know it's animation. But it's not novel writing, and too many fan authors don't seem to realize that. It's one thing to say you're inspired by anime and going for a certain kind of atmosphere/feeling/whatever, but there's somethings that don't translate well or at all into the solely written prose medium.

And the reason manga can focus on facial expression is because we can see them happening. It's drawn, therefore there's no need to describe what we can see and interpret for ourselves when reading/looking at a manga. Then there's the fact that anime and manga as we know it comes primarily out of Japan. As in it's being exported over here for us, foreigners, to view. It's only in recent years that Americans have been starting to say they're writing/drawing manga, because it sounds foreign and cool. I myself am highly manga influenced, but I just call my stuff comics, since that's what it is, and what manga means anyway.

Anime and manga just aren't prose, and too many people are getting them confused. Manga is just comic, anime is just cartoons, both of which are primarily a visual medium and most of the writing involved is the dialogue script. It is not the same as prose, and the younger fans, and many of the older ones, don't seem to know there's a difference. They need to learn it.


YOU need to learn that people writer differently than you. People write manga and anime. Like it or not.... it's a style that is used in writing. Who cares what the words "mean". Not everyone uses word meaning properly. Take cussing for example. People cuss even though the real meaning has NOTHING to do with what they are talking about.

Yes Manga and Anime use visual means. But guess what... writing does to. You read words. It is not made out in a picture... but a good writer is able to place a picture in your mind with words. If people want to write expressions in their writing. Let them. You don't make up the rules for writing. The rules aren't set in stone. They aren't a law.

People need to realize that there are more ways to write stories than just the basics. They need to learn it.


It's amazing how you entirely missed my point, Vinstepula. The difference between a prose story and comic/animated story is that in the latter two we get to see people's reactions, instead of having them described to us in some way. They cut straight to the visual representation of an emotion, instead of using words to describe it. Words are not the same as pictures. Words alone communicate in a very different way than words combined with pictures do.

Two very different ways of getting the point across, and two very different ways of telling the story. If you write manga and anime, then you're writing some kind of a script, not a prose story, and too many young fans don't know what it means to write manga and anime.

Also, to your post about thinking Harry Potter/Eragon/Twilight are good merely because they're popular: Popularity does not equal quality. I read Eragon just to see what the fuss was; I couldn't get past the first page it was so stiff and uninteresting. It was just poorly written and will soon fall completely off the radar. Twilight, from what I've heard, is a collection of cliches of the modern interpretation of the vampire, and isn't nearly as brilliant as people seem to think it is. I like Harry Potter. It's an interesting story where the characters actually grow. But threads about those series don't belong here. If you want to discuss the series, there's a books subforum devoted entirely to that. Hell, Harry Potter has a subforum all to itself. Go there if you want to discuss the series, that's not what the WF is for.

Cleckywolf: Sorry, I'm off topic. But this is me blowing off steam. People were being dumb about anime and manga and I got fed up with having to read that argument again. What the hell is up with people thinking they're genres and not story telling mediums?
Quote:
I never said that popular books must mean that they have perfect grammar.


"Perfect grammar" has nothing to do with having a vivid and interesting writing style - and if you think grammar is all that's required to write well, I truly pity you. neutral
C e r u l e a n's avatar

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Vinstepula

YOU need to learn that people writer differently than you. People write manga and anime. Like it or not.... it's a style that is used in writing. Who cares what the words "mean". Not everyone uses word meaning properly. Take cussing for example. People cuss even though the real meaning has NOTHING to do with what they are talking about.

Yes Manga and Anime use visual means. But guess what... writing does to. You read words. It is not made out in a picture... but a good writer is able to place a picture in your mind with words. If people want to write expressions in their writing. Let them. You don't make up the rules for writing. The rules aren't set in stone. They aren't a law.

People need to realize that there are more ways to write stories than just the basics. They need to learn it.


I hate to butt in and this might already be done, replied to, by the time I post this up but I just wanted to say that first of all, I disagree that anime/manga is a writing style that can be applied effectively in the written form (and if it was, god, that writer is brilliant) for what Ace of Shadows had tried to say and what others had debated awhile ago –is whether or not it can be a style. This is because by definition (I know that most of us here are aware of what the definitions are but there is a point to it so keep reading), Anime and manga are Japanese words that translate as animation and comic/graphic novels in the English language. Therefore they’re rightfully Japanese products and will be subjected to those meanings, specifically because they function best as those mediums –because it was developed that way historically. Writing, anime, manga, etc. all function well as storytelling, there is no doubt in that. However, how each story is told will be different to certain degrees, depending on the 'mediums' that you use, much like how you would color art with color pencils verse oil painting. The subject is the same, but obviously, the mediums are different and will vary with distinctive techniques that will only work and ‘look’ right for that specific medium. Thus, the outcome is never the same. I hope you (all) understood that analogy.

Now, if you want to apply the so called ‘Japanese style’ to your writing, for example, mentioning the ‘sweat drop’, do note the fact that not everyone likes to watch anime or read manga and will not understand what in the world a ‘sweat drop’ is. This particularly appears a LOT in fandoms, even to the point of saying, “…she tripped anime-style.” The argument here is this: the issue, at least, what I think the issue is, is not how it’s told, but the techniques that are used to put the story on paper or the computer. Imagine that in printed books. As a final point, if a person was to transfer a novel into a manga story or vice versa, they should notice that certain things are distinctive in each medium. Some challenges that I came across with switching mediums was the change of pace of story, the depth that I wanted the story to cover and how I should draw (this includes details, panels, body language, etc) are all taken into consideration –something that would’ve not been so restrictive written story. Needless to say, I wasn’t prepared for those blocks. Similar to translating between languages, something always gets lost.

Secondly, going back to writing, adding a Japanese style to your writing further complicates things if you want to be taken seriously as a writer or hope to publish some day. This is because, again, not everyone is familiar with the Japanese anime/manga fandom. If you have a character written down in a story that is hyper, loud, is an air head but is also nice and naïve, what do you think people will say about that character when they read it on paper or on the internet without visuals? It could range anything from the character being weak, dumb, annoying, lack of common sense, maybe even lacking a sense of reality. Now, let’s try putting those characteristics into the written form to make my point:
Quote:

Sara got off the school bus, tripped on one of the tree roots, and slammed her face into the grass. “OW!” she wailed painfully as people walked by and ignored the loud girl. “Ow, my nose! Oh my god, it’s turning red! No!”

“Sara, keep your voice down!” Nikki walked out of the bus and flicked her hair into the air. “Some of us just woke up you know? Why do you gotta be so loud for?”

“Can’t you see I just tripped here?” she demanded angrily, standing up and glaring at her friend. The other students began filing out of the bus as well. “Don’t you have any kind of sympathy for me?”

Nikki laughed. “You silly girl, can’t you tell when I’m joking? Now hurry up or you’re going to be late for class and won’t have time to be talking with Josh all to yourself.”

Upon hearing the subject of Josh, the pain in Sara’s nose was all forgotten. “Shh! Be quiet Nikki!”

Nikki laughed again and ran down to the front doors of the school. “Well, see if you can make me then!”


As you can see from really tiny example, different people will interpret several different things. For me, I’d be wondering if Nikki is a good friend or not. One, she didn’t help her friend. Two, she laughed when Sara was in pain. And three, she has no respect for what Sara needs or wants. Others might see Sara’s character as too whiny, self-centered, etc, etc, even if this is generalized to an extent.

Now, IF you were to make that into a graphic novel/manga/comic, it’d be a little different because there are different expressions that denote what kind of person Nikki is like. She could’ve been smiling kindly or giving Sara a really angry look. Then again, you could also argue that I could’ve just put those adverbs in there: smiled kindly, laughed joyfully, said jokingly –see all of those –lys? It can get redundant and the writer will have to manipulate/maneuver/get creative –call it what you want, the writer would have to show in a certain way that will get the idea across, such as the voice of the narrative -something, anything that can be achieved without the aids of visuals. In other words, both mediums, have their strengths and weaknesses, much like art mediums (oil takes FOREVER to dry).

Quote:
Who cares what the words "mean". Not everyone uses word meaning properly.


Actually, I care, and that is exactly why some people may appear more ignorant than they are. As I keep telling my siblings, never use words if you have no idea what they mean or have no intention of using it correctly. Words are there to give meaning. If they’re not there to give meaning, what are they there for then? That is why languages exist and is why we’re able to read and write and etc, etc. As for the cussing example, for me, whether they have any intention/meaning behind it, it still does tell me a few things: they could be negative people, they could’ve had a harsh past, or even that they’re so laid back they don’t care about how others feel and say whatever they want. I don't know. It could be anything. But, that alone says a lot about a person already, doesn’t it? So tell me again why words have no meaning?

As a final note before I be quiet, sure, I would agree that there are lots of style that a writer can adapt to that works for them. But that doesn’t mean that a writer can just take a completely different medium that’s already been developed for years, use it on a different kind of medium and say it’s as good as the original. It would take a lot of practice, trial and errors, and whatever to succeed. And let me tell you, I have yet to see an ‘anime style’ kind of writing that didn’t come off as… well, to be blunt, bad.
C e r u l e a n
Quote:
Who cares what the words "mean". Not everyone uses word meaning properly.


Actually, I care, and that is exactly why some people may appear more ignorant than they are.

Mark Twain cares too.

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