ARTISToWRDS_PNTRoSTORIES
Could be it depends on how you see it though. I only refer to it as a branching off because even if you don't like the way the branching or stealing etc has occurred or how new it get's it's still trying to claim aspects of the original religion.
But I think the problem is that the trying doesn't mean it succeeds. But I also wonder how many people really try to begin with- and how many people either don't know that eclecticism isn't the same as Wicca, or when they do know, care more about being "right" than learning the difference.
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It may not be an open book religion as you put Christianity but it's obvious things have leaked and transformed from the source creating the opportunity for that branching and idea forming to occur.
Not really- because there's a difference between Mysteries and secrets. For example, the rituals and stuff are supposed to be secret- but if someone breaks their oaths and tells you, that won't make you experience the Mysteries and it won't transform you the way the initiations and the training does.
I grew up going to Mass, that doesn't mean I'm a Priest even if I know the prayers- and Wicca is a priesthood.
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I do think they need a different label should either use the Neo Eclectic or just pagan but I don't necessarily have the opinion that someone
should remove the term Wicca if that's what they identify with.
But isn't that them placing themselves before the gods? I mean- Wiccans are Wiccan because they are called to serve these two specific gods, and Wicca is that religion. Look- I'm a seeker and a dedicant, but I'm not seeking to be Wiccan because I like the word, I'm seeking because I had experiences that Wicca might help me understand. Maybe it won't- maybe some day I'll wake up and either not care about what I saw and felt (not likely) or maybe I'll wake up and find out there is some other path that will help me answer these questions. Initiated or not- it's about how I'll answer the calling, not about what I want to be titled.
Maybe people who cling to the word Wicca should think about the Lord and Lady of Wicca instead of the title.
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Obviously the label attachments Neo Eclectic etc will alter it from being the original Wicca but to drop Wicca completely is not a matter of something that's right or wrong but of opinion. I don't see why someone who still follows as closely as they can to original Wicca while being a solitary practitioner or with out finding the teacher with the right connections should be forced to call themselves Neo-Pagan instead when it's obvious their focus is more on Wicca than any of the other thousands or millions of pagan practices out there.
The more research I do, the more I think it's not obvious that their focus is more on Wicca. Many of them focus on completely different gods for a start- and some of them focus on completely different practices, or practices that only look similar to people who aren't familiar with what Wicca does.
Take
this for example.
"Start by determining how big your space needs to be. A ceremonial circle is a place in which positive energy and power are kept in, and negative energy kept out."
Here we have a great example of what lots of people use circles for in their eclectic practice- but the Wicca don't cast a circle the way the website describes or for the same reason.
The ritual tools, the Ekos, the circle, the gods- people keep saying that it's obvious that they're the same, but it isn't to me any more- and it's still nagging at me that the only people who keep saying it's obvious are people who aren't initiates in Wicca.
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And by enough I really mean enough. I can relate it to martial arts there really aren't enough true masters out there for all the people who seek to become true masters themselves. Most times the only option is to go study in that country under a master unless you're lucky enough to be near one. Which obviously sounds ideal but life just doesn't work for everyone like that. So because one person has that opportunity in life to become a master doesn't mean he would make a better master than the other person if they both had equal opportunity.
Wicca is a calling. Wiccan teachers do not charge money for Wicca, but seekers do need to make the effort. If you're not willing to make the effort, to sacrifice to learn, then Wicca isn't the right path, and if you are willing and nothing is coming up, work towards it and be ready.
The first Wiccans I spoke to weren't a good fit even though they lived 5 minutes from here. They didn't answer my questions or help me in my seeking. My HPS lives so far away, but she lets me stay with her when I can, she has me visit for a week+ to catch up.
Do you think it's fair, when you talk about martial arts, that people who aren't Kung Fu black belts tell people they are just because they want to be?
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That's true which is why I think the prefix Neo would be good cause it's a new take on an old thing.
But I still see too many differences to see it as a new take on an old thing and not something completely different.
It makes me respect people from Reclaiming and Feri a lot- that they're honest that they're not Wiccan.
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I know it's different obviously or there probably wouldn't be so much dispute about it.. I'm a little wishy washy on stuff like that cause yeah I think it's a goodish intro to paganism but at the same time it kind of promotes this confusion about wicca and other types of paganism. So yeah =/
I think Cunningham is an ok intro to paganism- but not to Wicca. That's all any of the Wiccans around here ask for- not that people stop seeking or stop practicing what they practice, but that they stop confusing the stuff you get from a book with the Mysteries that make you Wiccan.
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I think that too actually but I'm not sure it's totally by choice. I've met a handful of people who legitimately thought they where Wiccan only to find out later that they can't be or couldn't be for whatever reason and then had to accept they where actually Neo-Wiccan. Of course with enough study something like that could be learned before hand but it depends on what sources you choose to believe and for people especially younger it's easier to believe the nice people who tell you to follow your heart this religion is really flexible bla bla bla than the other people who look down on you calling you a fluff that can't know what the right way is.
I think there is a problem with some pagans who are just jerks- but you get that in anything.
But you kind of proved my point- it's easier, but easy and right are different things.
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Perhaps then it is like Judaism to Christianity to Islam. Where the different groups don't one hundred percent agree with how the other group practices or preforms rituals or even some of the stuff they believe in or have altered/added from the original like "false" prophets etc. Either way they are tied together from the same roots.
The problem is that Christianity knows it's not Judaism and Islam and visa versa- they named themseleves different things. There's no doubt that Wicca influenced a lot of the eclectic witchcraft religions- Ed Fitch was Wiccan and he published things that were inspired by Wicca to help train and teach seekers. There are all kinds of stuff that was inspired by Wicca that isn't Wicca itself. Christianity was inspired by Judaism- but that doesn't make a Catholic a Jew any more than someone who is a non-initiate Eclectic is Wiccan.
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I only suggested it cause you're on gaia having discussions so it could be fun to go on youtube and have discussions. As you know I'm not wiccan and I personally don't really do spells and stuff. Because that's not why I'm on this path, it's also another thing that turned me off from Wicca.
How much spell work do you think is part of Wicca?
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I've only met two people who have experienced both sides afterwards one committed to just being called pagan but the other preferred Neo-Wiccan cause they really couldn't let go of the things that drew them to Wicca but they at the same time couldn't be part of that whole original process.
What traditions were they a part of? I'm asking because so many people think they are Wiccan and since the term seems confused in how you use it, I've got no way of knowing that they were ever initiates. I'm not saying it couldn't happen- but it's really odd, and it doesn't make sense because once someone is initiated, that can't be undone.
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I don't think they are experts I've never really come across anyone claiming to be an expert either. I think it's probably just watered down versions of the original, just like how martial arts gets watered down the further you get from a country, yet if you look hard enough you can still find the good seeds among that mess.
There are different kinds of experts- there are scholars and there are people who are experts by experience.
