Evolution: Fact Or Fiction

Whats your religion?

Atheist	39.2%	[ 1134 ]
Protestant	16.9%	[ 489 ]
Catholic	14.0%	[ 406 ]
Hindu	1.3%	[ 37 ]
Muslim	1.8%	[ 53 ]
Jew	2.3%	[ 67 ]
Buddhist	5.2%	[ 149 ]
Greek Orthodox	0.7%	[ 21 ]
Pagan	14.3%	[ 412 ]
Egyptian	4.2%	[ 122 ]
Total Votes:			[ 2890 ]

[Jahanara0707]

Symos

Well, I dont see why christians can't beleive in evolution.
Genesis 1:20 And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.

and Genesis 1:24 And God said, Let the earth bring forth the living creature after his kind, cattle, and creeping thing, and beast of the earth after his kind: and it was so.

So the very thing anti-evolutionists found their arguements suggest at a process like evolution. Just engineered. So again I don't see why they need to be agressive about it some of these people.

Here is Genesis 1:20 NLT "And God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind."
Genesis 1:24-25, "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal-livestock, small animals, and wildlife.' And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good."

Personally, I don't think these verses support evolution. God is just ordering His creation to come into being. Also, with the part, "each able to reproduce more of its own kind," indicates that the creatures reproduced themselves and do not change over time.

[Golden Dysprosium]

Jahanara0707

Here is Genesis 1:20 NLT "And God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind."
Genesis 1:24-25, "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal-livestock, small animals, and wildlife.' And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good."Personally, I don't think these verses support evolution. God is just ordering His creation to come into being. Also, with the part, "each able to reproduce more of its own kind," indicates that the creatures reproduced themselves and do not change over time.

Virtually nothing in the bible supports scientific research. It's all interpretation through what are basically folk tales and myths. Like I said, it's still more *POOF!* than proof.

[Ashley the Bee]

Jahanara0707

Here is Genesis 1:20 NLT "And God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind."
Genesis 1:24-25, "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal-livestock, small animals, and wildlife.' And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good."

Personally, I don't think these verses support evolution. God is just ordering His creation to come into being. Also, with the part, "each able to reproduce more of its own kind," indicates that the creatures reproduced themselves and do not change over time.

So, you don't see how the creation story could be metaphorical? You say it must happen exactly as it was written, despite the fact that it contradicts reality?

It seems as though there are only two real choices. The first is that the Bible is the literal story of creation, which contradicts reality and can only lead one to believe that, with such a fatal flaw in the first chapters, what other errors must abound.

The second is that the creation story is a metaphor, and does not contradict reality, because it is not intending to say that fish and birds went *poof* and sprang into being, but, instead, that the story is meant to show that YHWH prepares the planet for humanity, which is then graced and lifted up above the other creatures out of love.

But, you know, whatever you'd like to believe.

[Golden Dysprosium]

Ashley the Bee

Jahanara0707

Personally, I don't think these verses support evolution. God is just ordering His creation to come into being. Also, with the part, "each able to reproduce more of its own kind," indicates that the creatures reproduced themselves and do not change over time.

So, you don't see how the creation story could be metaphorical? You say it must happen exactly as it was written, despite the fact that it contradicts reality?
It seems as though there are only two real choices.
1. The first is that the Bible is the literal story of creation, which contradicts reality and can only lead one to believe that, with such a fatal flaw in the first chapters, what other errors must abound.
2. The second is that the creation story is a metaphor, and does not contradict reality, because it is not intending to say that fish and birds went *poof* and sprang into being, but, instead, that the story is meant to show that YHWH prepares the planet for humanity, which is then graced and lifted up above the other creatures out of love.

I doubt the second one is the more popularized belief. The first is pushed a lot, and the flaws are quickly covered up. The bible we have now has gone through hundreds of years of re-writes. I think if we showed the original writers our modern copy, they'd barely recognize it. Plus, there are still some missing texts, and things that were probably taken out and replaced by elements that were meant to guide the faith in a particular direction.

[Vryko Lakas]

Patella

I doubt the second one is the more popularized belief.

It actually is once you start to look past the vocal minority that reside largely in America, mostly concentrated along the Bible Belt. For instance, the single largest denomination in the world, Catholicism, adopts the view that Genesis is metaphorical. This sect alone still makes up the plurality of Christians.

Quote:

The first is pushed a lot, and the flaws are quickly covered up. The bible we have now has gone through hundreds of years of re-writes. I think if we showed the original writers our modern copy, they'd barely recognize it. Plus, there are still some missing texts, and things that were probably taken out and replaced by elements that were meant to guide the faith in a particular direction.

The modern Bibles we have now are the result of centuries of careful study using a broad group of early manuscripts and comparative methodology to try and discern what is most likely to have been in the originals. It's very likely that the agreed-upon canonical texts are pretty close to what the original authors wrote, with some limitations and caveats. For example, we know that the story of Jesus stopping the stoning of the adulterous woman with "Let he who is without sin..." is probably a later addition to John.

[dragonmatt5]

Alt_Jack

dragonmatt5

hmm if i may add to this, there is irony in religious persecution and the denial of evolution by some religious communities. As was the case with religious persecution, those that were different, thought differently or questioned authority were the first to be wiped out. That being done, some went as far as to associated relatives to that same oddness and target them too. This in turn disrupted those traits from being continued in the next generation. This is sort of a guiding of the evolution of the human race to more docile and accepting of a small group of leaders over a collective rule. It is also quite possible for the racist and even sexist nature still potent today though that may be more social evolution, but the idea is still there.

If by guiding evolution you mean genocide and "racial cleansing". Humans fear what is different. "When in doubt,throw it out" seems to be humanity's unofficial slogan. It's just strange that we have people killing other people for stupid reasons.

"What?! You don't believe that an invisible sky giant created a guilible man and a rib woman who were tricked by a talking snake into eating an apple that gave them unparalleled intellect?! You must be evil! KILL THE NON-BELIEVER!!"

yes i did mean those means. Humans even back in our early stages of civilization noticed that desirable traits in livestock tended to appear in those animals' offspring more so then the offspring of less desirable trait displaying livestock. The notion that someone in power would draw a connection between that in animals and that in humans is quite easy to see.

as for the when in doubt slogan (though i love it biggrin ) it is may be an evolutionary trait from our primeative form. Looking at social structures and mating habits of other animals will show a little of this, as a dominate male will lead a group and kill off opposition, and yet allow those that don't oppose but do help remain, Much like a dominate but small religious ruling party will kill off rebelious aspect (with varying degree of prejudice) and let the workers who don't oppose continue living (As long as they give something to the society as a whole, and the lions share keeps ending up in the hands of the small ruling party.)

oh and SACRILEGE!! KILL THE HERETIC!!!

[Alt_Jack]

dragonmatt5

yes i did mean those means. Humans even back in our early stages of civilization noticed that desirable traits in livestock tended to appear in those animals' offspring more so then the offspring of less desirable trait displaying livestock. The notion that someone in power would draw a connection between that in animals and that in humans is quite easy to see.
as for the when in doubt slogan (though i love it biggrin ) it is may be an evolutionary trait from our primeative form. Looking at social structures and mating habits of other animals will show a little of this, as a dominate male will lead a group and kill off opposition, and yet allow those that don't oppose but do help remain, Much like a dominate but small religious ruling party will kill off rebelious aspect (with varying degree of prejudice) and let the workers who don't oppose continue living (As long as they give something to the society as a whole, and the lions share keeps ending up in the hands of the small ruling party.)oh and SACRILEGE!! KILL THE HERETIC!!!

Notice how I just happened to have an ice sword? A smart heretic is a well-armed heretic.
Anyway, that's just how people are. No one at the top of the pyramid wants to share their golden thrown, and everyone else wants that top spot. It's natural selection at it's worst. In the words of Ricky Bobby, "there can't be two number 1s!"

[Jahanara0707]

Patella

Jahanara0707

Here is Genesis 1:20 NLT "And God said, "Let the waters swarm with fish and other life. Let the skies be filled with birds of every kind."
Genesis 1:24-25, "And God said, 'Let the earth bring forth every kind of animal-livestock, small animals, and wildlife.' And so it was. God made all sorts of wild animals, livestock, and small animals, each able to reproduce more of its own kind. And God saw that it was good."Personally, I don't think these verses support evolution. God is just ordering His creation to come into being. Also, with the part, "each able to reproduce more of its own kind," indicates that the creatures reproduced themselves and do not change over time.

Virtually nothing in the bible supports scientific research. It's all interpretation through what are basically folk tales and myths. Like I said, it's still more *POOF!* than proof.

Your response begs the question, 'Have you read the Bible?' You make it sound as if you have conducted exhaustive research to reach such a profound conclusion. My concern is that you have accepted "hook, line and sinker" the dogma of people who work very hard and very passionately to deny the existence of God and dismiss the proponderance of scientific evidence supporting His existence and the credibility of the Bible. Please check out the link: http://www.icr.org/ for more information.. Have you seen the recent movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? It would give you a different and arguably compelling picture to at least question the theories we've been indoctrinated by in so many of our public institutions of learning.
Please do not confuse the errors in so many religions and the imperfections of people that have turned so many off to God as reason to throw it all away. . . without seeking answers to those deep and personal questions we deal with when all is quiet and thoughts go deep...What is the purpose of life? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Does anyone care? Is there more to life than this? Etc. etc. Please consider it and don't be afraid to question your teachers. I do mine.

[dragonmatt5]

Jahanara0707

Your response begs the question, 'Have you read the Bible?' You make it sound as if you have conducted exhaustive research to reach such a profound conclusion. My concern is that you have accepted "hook, line and sinker" the dogma of people who work very hard and very passionately to deny the existence of God and dismiss the proponderance of scientific evidence supporting His existence and the credibility of the Bible. Please check out the link: http://www.icr.org/ for more information.. Have you seen the recent movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? It would give you a different and arguably compelling picture to at least question the theories we've been indoctrinated by in so many of our public institutions of learning.
Please do not confuse the errors in so many religions and the imperfections of people that have turned so many off to God as reason to throw it all away. . . without seeking answers to those deep and personal questions we deal with when all is quiet and thoughts go deep...What is the purpose of life? Where did I come from? Where am I going? Does anyone care? Is there more to life than this? Etc. etc. Please consider it and don't be afraid to question your teachers. I do mine.

firstly, that movie is such a farce. Have you read up on what he talks about in it? Have you seen the amount of false information displayed as facts or the broad range of loose definitions in which they describe evolution? All of it was proven to be wrong, either through miss-representation of facts or outright bullshit. It was a failure of a propaganda film, nothing more. feel free to take me up on any point mentioned in it, i am sure either myself, the people here or the vast, vast amount of references and documentations about it will be enough to disprove all of it. The primary reason no place of higher learning wants creationism taught is simple, IT FAILS TO MAKE A COMPELLING ARGUMENT OF A LOGICAL AND PROVABLE BASE.

secondly, feel free to give some of that scientific evidence of god's existance. I am all ears...er eyes. While your at it, explain exactly how in the hell that proves A) that god is the one from the bible, B) how that proves evolution isn't occuring, C) What god's existance has to do with evolution anyways

finally, why do you think just because people believe in evolution they are athiest? Or people who don't believe in the bible are athiest? Many scientific minds are religious, they just don't take the word of an anchent book as literal truth.

I ask those questions you mentioned of myself a while back, around the age of 7 or so. Ask them again every now and then since to verify if my reasons make sense. Mine seem to. Can't understand how zealots manage to though. I wish to help the society in which i live, for the better of mankind. You folks seem to be more about helping your religion claim as many followers as possible in the name of your god. Somehow that does tend to make me kinda arrogant around overly religious people, so i guess i apologise for that.

oh and a quick video you should watch, as it gives a a list of all the scientific evidence learned and taught according to the same standard as evolution and therefore as "questionable" as evolution.Watch Please

[dragonmatt5]

Alt_Jack

Notice how I just happened to have an ice sword? A smart heretic is a well-armed heretic.
Anyway, that's just how people are. No one at the top of the pyramid wants to share their golden thrown, and everyone else wants that top spot. It's natural selection at it's worst. In the words of Ricky Bobby, "there can't be two number 1s!"

yes my katana does a good job of fend off zealots as well, though my "god devouring" geneticly created dragon does his share too xd


but as i said, that behavior may have been part of our ancestorial behavior, something that should have died off, save for perhaps religion and it's ability to reduce normally intelegent people to murderous barbarians in the name of an invisible man.

[Golden Dysprosium]

Jahanara0707

Your response begs the question, 1. 'Have you read the Bible?' You make it sound as if you have conducted exhaustive research to reach such a profound conclusion. 2. My concern is that you have accepted "hook, line and sinker" the dogma of people who work very hard and very passionately to deny the existence of God and dismiss the proponderance of scientific evidence supporting His existence and the credibility of the Bible. 3. Please check out the link: http://www.icr.org/ for more information.. Have you seen the recent movie "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? It would give you a different and arguably compelling picture to at least question the theories we've been indoctrinated by in so many of our public institutions of learning.
Please do not confuse the errors in so many religions and the imperfections of people that have turned so many off to God as reason to throw it all away. . . without seeking answers to those deep and personal questions we deal with when all is quiet and thoughts go deep...4. a.What is the purpose of life? b.Where did I come from? c.Where am I going? d.Does anyone care? e.Is there more to life than this? Etc. etc. Please consider it and don't be afraid to question your teachers. I do mine.

1. Yep. I used to be a christian. I got through pretty much the entire New Testament (or the Bible: part 2), and read through a lot of the old one. I have a profound hatred for Paul/Saul and his seemingly endless letters to people.
2. They have evidence that the Abrahamic god exists?
3. I never watched the movie, but someone mentioned it before, so I did some research. Dragonmatt is right; there's a ton of stuff disproving it. Also, Ben Stein isn't a scientist.
4. a.you make your own b.gametes c.planning is key d. probably e.obviously
Creationism is a scam. I mean, just read it objectively. It's littered with "it is reasonable to assume that" and "drawing conclusions from the Scriptures"; those aren't convincing. Every time science hits a setback, they pounce on it, but they've got nothing better than assumptions and literal interpretations.

Quote:

This fossil discovery single-handedly and instantly removes 30 million years from the standard evolutionary timeline, which must be re-warped to accommodate the new data. In contrast, biblical history remains the same even after this find, because there were no vast eons separating the creation of microbes from the creation of other living things, so no additional explanations are needed as to why their fossils would be located in close proximity.

[Alt_Jack]

dragonmatt5

yes i did mean those means. Humans even back in our early stages of civilization noticed that desirable traits in livestock tended to appear in those animals' offspring more so then the offspring of less desirable trait displaying livestock. The notion that someone in power would draw a connection between that in animals and that in humans is quite easy to see.
as for the when in doubt slogan (though i love it biggrin ) it is may be an evolutionary trait from our primeative form.

Guess what I found on ICR: mutation is evil., but that's okay, because God prevents cancer.

Quote:

...is there a creationist lens through which to view cancer biology? ...This new knowledge may be used to extend the natural theology of the Apostle Paul, expressed through his analogy of the "body of Christ," from the macroscopic level down to the microscopic. Indeed, this may be a more accurate view of final reality, as there are to the anatomist only several thousand macroscopically visible parts of the body. The Bible tells us that the host of the redeemed will be "a great multitude, which no man could number" (Revelation 7:9. It literally says that, just in a completely different context). Carrying this analogy to the cellular world of our bodies produces a graphic picture of the vast gulf between good and evil.

So, Paul was a microbiologist?

Quote:

To conclude, the tragedy of cancer is the result of ongoing genetic deterioration in our body cells, and as such is a manifestation of the Edenic curse of decay and death. However, a close look at cancer biology can give us a deeper appreciation of the vast wisdom and goodness of God, and of the unutterable vileness of sin.

In conclusion, an ancient curse is the cause of cancer, rather than the biological cause they took 4 paragraphs to explain.

Quote:

It is ironic that each of us carries with us a daily parable, acted out at the cellular level, of the peaceful virtues that will be the future norm of the City of God. Metaphorically, the expression of those peaceful virtues in our body cells leads to a state of health. When those "virtues" are lost in a clone of cells, we have cancer. This is not to claim that cancer is always a moral problem, or that cancer suffering necessarily results from sin. Nor are individual cells capable of moral choice in their behavior.

And now it's not.

[dragonmatt5]

good stuff...though why is my post quoted? doesn't make sense in small scale though i do know what your trying to get across. just pointing out you may want to fix the quote is all.

[Alt_Jack]

dragonmatt5

good stuff...though why is my post quoted? doesn't make sense in small scale though i do know what your trying to get across. just pointing out you may want to fix the quote is all.

Get ready for another quote blitz!

ICR site

"The Natural Direction of Life Is Degeneration, Not Evolution".

dragonmatt5

yes i did mean those means. Humans even back in our early stages of civilization noticed that desirable traits in livestock tended to appear in those animals' offspring more so then the offspring of less desirable trait displaying livestock. The notion that someone in power would draw a connection between that in animals and that in humans is quite easy to see.
as for the when in doubt slogan (though i love it biggrin ) it is may be an evolutionary trait from our primeative form.

If thumb through it, it says that "Life was created fully functional" and that "The Natural Direction of Life Is Degeneration, Not Evolution". They're saying everything started out perfect, and now because of mutation, everything is going to hell (excuse the pun). Personally, I prefer the story where life struggled to get where it is now, overcoming many obstacles, rather than *POOF!* everything is perfect!..until someone eats the apple of knowledge, and apparently, mutation, which will doom us all. This is literally what the "page trail" was:

Quote:

Evidence for Creation » Evidence from Science » The Life Sciences » Life Was Created Fully Functional » The Natural Direction of Life Is Degeneration, Not Evolution

They're saying that change is bad, and that we need to go back to that perfection. But, they neglect to say how that'll be accomplished.